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Offline joyofmarklin  
#1 Posted : 07 August 2021 23:52:18(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Hello,
I have completed my first stage of my layout, which has 12 turnouts and 4 signals. However the wiring looks like “a dogs dinner!” So it is time to tidy it up and take the wiring underneath. Tried to search, as sure this has been covered before? So should I drill holes and have the connectors underneath (seems tidier) or do I have the connections on the surface to make removal easier?
Thinking of using stick on clips underneath and mounting the block connectors on the wooden supports.
Also need to get much more wires to make them uniform?
Advice on best practice as am hesitant on starting?
Many thanks

Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 07 August 2021 23:56:36(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,000
Location: Scotland
At my age I ensure that wiring is easy to get at and at the same time not easily seen. Crawling about under a layout is not always a great idea.

Connectors etc can be placed under buildings and wire covered with scatter material.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline applor  
#3 Posted : 08 August 2021 02:22:33(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
holes for the wires with the connectors underneath. If you find yourself needing to remove a turnout, the small bit of effort to remove the connectors is no big deal.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline michelvr  
#4 Posted : 08 August 2021 16:07:12(UTC)
michelvr


Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,219
Hello,

A good question needs a good answer!

Call it what it is, A dogs dinner, a bowl of spaghetti, a birds nest, just to name a few of these wires going here, there and everywhere!

My solution was an easy one since most of the electrical cabinets at work had these so I thought why not use them on my layout. I’m referring to wire ways! At work they were metal and so I sourced the plastic ones.

I’ve been creating and making model railroads for quite some time and these wire ways are in my opinion a necessity. For about $15.00 you can buy a 1 1/2” X 2” X 96” plastic wire way from your favourite electronics store. With the wire way you can put it in any orientation, cut it to length and best of all have, all your wires will be in a convenient location for that potential and inevitable trouble shooting time under the table!

2E898EAC-888A-48DB-95D2-A0537C4E9394.jpegAF77CB19-CA2C-4852-837A-A073BEC80E17.jpeg
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 08 August 2021 16:19:37(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: joyofmarklin Go to Quoted Post
Hello,
I have completed my first stage of my layout, which has 12 turnouts and 4 signals. However the wiring looks like “a dogs dinner!” So it is time to tidy it up and take the wiring underneath. Tried to search, as sure this has been covered before? So should I drill holes and have the connectors underneath (seems tidier) or do I have the connections on the surface to make removal easier?
Thinking of using stick on clips underneath and mounting the block connectors on the wooden supports.
Also need to get much more wires to make them uniform?
Advice on best practice as am hesitant on starting?
Many thanks


Hello
Solution depends on your shape (how easy you can crawl under the layout), your goals (simple wiring of complex one caused by automation), feedback technology (S88 or conventional contacts.
So my solution is one of many and consists of:
- using large staples used for construction (roof insulation). This leave a large buckle where it is easy to have wires supported.
- this allows easy changes and tracking of cables
- this allows the wiring to be not too dense (to avoid mutual induction) between feedback wires and high-current feeders
- this method is not costly: electrical or mechanical stapler and staples.

Cheers
Jean


My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline joyofmarklin  
#6 Posted : 14 August 2021 05:38:44(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Many thanks for all the advice
Offline Br502362  
#7 Posted : 14 August 2021 09:39:55(UTC)
Br502362


Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 646
Location: Finland
Hi,

I wired my analogue layout under table like this.

Capture22a.png

Easy to reach and easy to find problem spots if something happens.

I hope this helps you Smile

Cheers

Åke
thanks 10 users liked this useful post by Br502362
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 14 August 2021 11:06:21(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,002
Location: New Zealand
A work of art, Åke!

Just like the Marklin factory built layouts.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline Michael4  
#9 Posted : 14 August 2021 12:23:29(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 522
Location: England, South Coast
My wiring looks like the sort of thing you would find behind the dashboard of an old Alfa Romeo. The dog would turn his nose up at it.

I don't use my layout in the summer but when winter starts to draw in I can be found lying under the layout trying to remember what the hell it was all for.

I have finally grasped the concept of colour coding but it is far from universal and what on earth was orange for anyway????
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Offline marklinist5999  
#10 Posted : 14 August 2021 12:28:57(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 956
Location: Michigan, Troy
Those plastic wire ways are great! I made stick on labels for each turnout run, decoder, etc. And wrapped them around the bundles. That way you know which bundle is which underneath. I hid topside labels under landscape that can easily lift up. Even using red, Brown, green, blue, black and yellow wiring, it gets to look complex. The more you multiplex lighting to save wire use, the more so it gets.
Then even though several bundle runs are concealed carry in the channel ways, if the exit areas are labeled, there is no confusion.

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Offline joyofmarklin  
#11 Posted : 16 August 2021 04:57:04(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
A good analogy Italian wiring! A good fix, thank you
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Offline Timnomads  
#12 Posted : 16 August 2021 11:10:05(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 225
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Hi All
We have identified a problem if you run wires together in a conduit. They have to each be shielded otherwise the digital information travelling in each wire can be corrupted.
This can cause some weird bugs
Huh
Tim
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Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 16 August 2021 13:20:05(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 956
Location: Michigan, Troy
I've used 20 avg pvc 30mm wire. I don't know if it's shielded, but I have no problems. Rather than conduit, I have wring clipped in 3M Command light clips. I spaced them out about every 3 to 4 ft. The loops are big enough to carry 4 to 6 30mm wires. They can be removed with a tug on the adhesive tab anbd moved and reused.
Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 19 August 2021 03:34:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,444
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
We have identified a problem if you run wires together in a conduit...


Thanks Tim - that makes sense and would explain some strange bugs that I had in my system after I cleaned up my wiring by bundling things up.

Luckily next up for me is a whole new layout and I will have to avoid doing that again.

There are so many subtle ways to break a modern MRR layout. I just need to learn to be happy when it all at least appears to work. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline joyofmarklin  
#15 Posted : 01 September 2021 02:48:26(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Hi,

All good advice! I want to label the wires any suggestions how to and what I write, ie turnout 1.
Has been suggested that I drill the holes and turn the table on it’s side. However not able to, so under the table I go! Will tKe my time!
Many thanks

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Offline marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 01 September 2021 11:09:39(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 956
Location: Michigan, Troy
I labeled turnouts with stickers. Numbers or alpha numeric. I used m83 decoders vs. One in each turnout, so those have a,b,c. Turnouts labeled according to the terminals connected to on the decoder. A1, etc. I wrapped each bundle run with sticky long peel off labels. I used colored tape on wires which are red or black, connected to turnout blue, brown, or yellow wires to identify the ends at the decoders. Write down a log of your wiring colors and their routes.
I use a separate power supply for my building lighting. Too many to connect to my CS3 with m84 decoders. Some are 16 volt a/c motor driven accessories. An inexpensive train transformer has both fixed 12 and16 volt outputs. Incandescent bulbs can use either. Led lights depending on the resistors. Some are brighter using 16 v.
Offline joyofmarklin  
#17 Posted : 01 September 2021 17:42:13(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Many thanks
Offline DaleSchultz  
#18 Posted : 01 September 2021 18:59:50(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,862
The problem with labeling things, is that when you change something you also have to change the label.
That second step seldom happens.

So I work with the following principles:

Color code wires as much as possible.
  • Red = digital signal
  • Brown or Black = common ground
  • Yellow (thick) = 16V AC bus
  • White = 12V DC bus
  • Gray then Multicolor strands - s88 sensor
  • Blue (thin) = turnout motor return
  • yellow (thin) = turnout power


I then only label the big things that are extremely unlikely to change, for example, each big multi-strand bundle of s88 wires are labeled A, B, C, D, etc. but there is no point in labelling the colored wires inside as they all have unique colors. Thus bundle R red+white identifies a specific wire to a sensor without ambiguity.

I have labeled my power districts/boosters 1, 2, 3.

K83 type modules and s88 modules get numbered consecutively.

With this simple approach I can know what any wire is.
If it is a turnout, which K83 is it connected to ? Easy. The individual posts on each K83 are already labeled 1- 4
If it is a signal, which signal module is it connected to ? Easy. Output ports are all labeled at the factory.
See https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2016/01/Installing-signals.html
Track wires are either red or brown/black.
Sensor wires are gray and then connect to a wire in a bundle, follow the wire to the sensor or back to the bundle and you know what it is.
See https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2014/08/s88-cable.html






Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline joyofmarklin  
#19 Posted : 02 September 2021 02:32:52(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Thank you very interesting
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Offline marklinist5999  
#20 Posted : 02 September 2021 13:51:56(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 956
Location: Michigan, Troy
It's nice to use all corresponding color wire, however, I find it easier for myself to use double strand wire which is only available in two and of certain colors. Three strand wire is even more rare, unless it's too thin. I also don't like stiff wire that holds it's bent shapes. It's also brittle, and can break if stretched, or bent too often. A wrap of yellow tape on the end of a red wire and I know what it is. I do it for each connection.
The Marklin plugs and sockets can also be used that way, but I don't prefer the new style so much. It's hard to tell the plugs from the sockets in dim lighting, and I've stripped a few screws. They must be of lesser quality than the old ones.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#21 Posted : 05 September 2021 23:59:25(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 112
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Wiring is usually once finished, "out-of-sight, out-of-mind". I use telephone wire cable which consists of 4-paired wires of 22 gauge. It is used only for turnout control. Each turnout uses a common wire that connects to a buss and the solenoid control to the 2 wire pair in the cable. Each cable can accomodate 4 turnouts that helps keep the wiring simple. A black and white wire (14 ga) is used as a buss to distribute track power. I don't like to work under the bench due to age, but this minimizes that. I am working on a catenary system that will keep wiring simple. All poles and the wires are brass and have a common polarity, so only one wire is needed. Lightning can be accomplished using surface wiring covered with tape, as I'm using low voltage LED lamps. The tape can be covered by scenery.. My layout is a "plan-as-you-go", so it's back and forth between the layout and Autocad software on my computer. At my age (86), it's imperative that I keep everything simple and readily accessible. Underneath benchwork is not in my plans. As I progress, I am discovering and inventing ways to make the wiring process as painless as possible. Since I am going straight analog wiring, I won't have a problem with cross wiring interference. Once I get it completed, I will update how it's done.
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Offline joyofmarklin  
#22 Posted : 07 September 2021 02:19:35(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Interesting thank you
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