Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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as the layout grows tire are moor and moor wires so can i wire the power feeder yellow wire into the 3rd rail section of track before the switch as switches on the far side are using lots of wire running back to power suppy hess
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 126 Location: Seattle area
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Hi Heinrichhess, please don't try this. The solenoids and bulbs in the M track turnouts are designed for the ~16VAC power from the L outputs from the power supplies. The 3rd rail power is variable from ~4-17VAC, and momentary ~27VAC.
If you connect the yellow to the 3rd rail, the bulb will only glow when track power is supplied, and the bulb will likely burnout when reversing (27VAC) power is applied. The turnout solenoids will only operate when ~16VAC power is applied to the track power; that's almost full power/highest speed. They may buzz at lower power but depending on their condition and the draw from loks on the same track they may just buzz until they burn out; they'll also burn out if their control button is held down to force the turnout to switch.
You can connect the yellows together and then run a single yellow back to the power supply if you use the 7209 distribution strip to minimize the yellow runs back to the power supply.
Hope this helps.
Brian
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 1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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using mobile station 2 so power is on full all the time would you have a separate control box for switches?
hess
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Hello Hess, Even with constant power with digital, it is best to follow the Marklin wiring guidelines. You want the constant power to be as "constant" as possible without any unexpected power drainage and perhaps affect your decoders negatively. Avoiding any potential disasters, the idea of using a few distribution buses to reduce wiring is the best imho. If you want to use a larger gauge wire from the bus to the power supply, that might improve potential issues with too many wires to one location, but if its only a same amount of wires as are plug inlets on the standard Marklin wiring bus, then it should be fine. Good luck, Mark Originally Posted by: heinrichhess  using mobile station 2 so power is on full all the time would you have a separate control box for switches?
hess |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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so I'm thinking of running MS2 control for 3rd rail track power and a 2nd analogue controller for lights semaphore and switches Duse that seam right?   hess
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Yes, that should work as long as you are using the older AC signals and you keep the two power systems and returns independent from one another. I have not done this myself so perhaps someone with more experience doing so should weigh in. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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most help full mark 5 i am using old signals and light's i have been worried about power drop how ever this should sort things out just need to work out resistor value for LED thanks all
hess
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 1 user liked this useful post by heinrichhess
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Great Hess, Try a few tests with it and with isolated systems and correct resistors for LEDs I think it should be fine. Let us know your progress. Originally Posted by: heinrichhess  most help full mark 5 i am using old signals and light's i have been worried about power drop how ever this should sort things out just need to work out resistor value for LED thanks all
hess |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,590 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: Mark5  Yes, that should work as long as you are using the older AC signals and you keep the two power systems and returns independent from one another. I have not done this myself so perhaps someone with more experience doing so should weigh in. I think the BROWN wires should be connected between the two systems. That way you can also use contact-tracks etc. for changing points and signals automatically... With "brown" I refer to the actual RAILS (MS2) and the brown connector of the blue trafo. All yellow wires to the yellow connector of the blue trafo. All red wires to the center rail of the track (MS2). The red connector on the blue trafo should not be used, but could be used for adjustable interior lighting in houses etc. (If the blue trafo is 30VA or bigger. For the 16VA trafo there's probably not enough juice) |
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 2 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Thank you hxmiesa, You have raised a question I have always asked myself. I used a blue trafo on my old layout only for the interior house lights and to adjust to keep them dimmer; so as not to burn them out, and the old incandescent lights were bright. However, I also thought it best to have their return to the same trafo. Would it have been possible to have "ground wires" aka brown return wires to the same brown bus? Now that I am thinking about it, its been a few years and wondering if I did that or not. I am not sure I understand circuits well enough if returns/browns can be blended. Is it the case that once the power is consumed within the resistance of the device/switch/light/signal/train that the return is irrelevant? Does the blue trafo not have to also have a return brown wire, as would the other "digital" constant power source? I hope this question does not complicate things too much. Your question about the contact tracks is very important, so having that work seems essential. Thanks again Mark Originally Posted by: hxmiesa  Originally Posted by: Mark5  Yes, that should work as long as you are using the older AC signals and you keep the two power systems and returns independent from one another. I have not done this myself so perhaps someone with more experience doing so should weigh in. I think the BROWN wires should be connected between the two systems. That way you can also use contact-tracks etc. for changing points and signals automatically... With "brown" I refer to the actual RAILS (MS2) and the brown connector of the blue trafo. All yellow wires to the yellow connector of the blue trafo. All red wires to the center rail of the track (MS2). The red connector on the blue trafo should not be used, but could be used for adjustable interior lighting in houses etc. (If the blue trafo is 30VA or bigger. For the 16VA trafo there's probably not enough juice) |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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the question is a good point i run contact track and marklin semophe grounded with base plate to track   hess
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,590 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: Mark5  However, I also thought it best to have their return to the same trafo. Would it have been possible to have "ground wires" aka brown return wires to the same brown bus? Now that I am thinking about it, its been a few years and wondering if I did that or not. I am not sure I understand circuits well enough if returns/browns can be blended. Is it the case that once the power is consumed within the resistance of the device/switch/light/signal/train that the return is irrelevant? Does the blue trafo not have to also have a return brown wire, as would the other "digital" constant power source? I just connect all brown wires together. I use around 15 different AC trafos (Titan, Märklin), a 24Vdc (250W) trafo and an MS2. Their BROWN/0 are all connected with one big fat wire. You could differentiate the browns if you think that helps make things clearer, but I think it is just more wiring. -And what happens if you mistakenly connect the power from one trafo the the brown of another? -Just ground the whole thing!!! The only thing I should probably stress, is to use only the brown TRACK-wire form the MS2, NOT the one from it´s power supply! |
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 3 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,590 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: heinrichhess  the question is a good point i run contact track and marklin semophe grounded with base plate to track
That is how I run my trains too. The way to mix analogue and digital power is what I described here. (I "could" mention that my circuitry is much more complicated than that, using both 16Vac and 24Vdc to drive solenoids. Using digital PLC inputs that must be drawn down because they need +24Vdc for turning on, when Märklin contact-tracks connects to ground when activated...  ) Thanks again to M-users member and friend jcp_ate who explained me the electrical solution for that, almost 20 years ago! |
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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thanks hxmiesa good advice on not grounding old analogue controller
hess
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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I understand what you are saying but perhaps you can you clarify this statement: "The only thing I should probably stress, is to use only the brown TRACK-wire form the MS2, NOT the one from it´s power supply!" Originally Posted by: hxmiesa  The way to mix analogue and digital power is what I described here.
(I "could" mention that my circuitry is much more complicated than that, using both 16Vac and 24Vdc to drive solenoids. Using digital PLC inputs that must be drawn down because they need +24Vdc for turning on, when Märklin contact-tracks connects to ground when activated...
A lot more complex.... https://en.wikipedia.org...ammable_logic_controller |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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i will run all switches of old controller and 3rd rail power of MS2 and only ground switches and 3rd rail to MS2
hess
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 480 Location: USA
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I use cs3/intellibox for M track power and connected boosters for classic switches and signals. They share common ground. Lights in scenery use DC power supply for LEDs and variable AC transformer for old bulbs. They are fully separate and do not share ground with track or each other. (I have phased out most ac lights) This offers better power management for layout and troubleshooting, in my opinion. |
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 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
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Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Wales, powys
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thanks BenP sounds like i would be best having 12v dc powered supply for buildings light on a separate circuit  hess
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 126 Location: Seattle area
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I've ganged 4 of the 6001 trafos to power all the analog turnouts, signals and uncouplers on my layout, distributing the loads across those and the L outputs from the 6627's I use for running power. The 6001's each have 42VA of "yellow" power available.
Regardless of how you get power, remember to plug all of the trafos and power sources into your wall receptacles so they are in phase with each other. Not doing so can potentially double the voltage sent to some of the devices.
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 1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
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