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Question Marklin 7192/7193 Wiring Problem?? - Trains stop when both are on the crossing
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Offline OMAC  
#1 Posted : 05 March 2023 09:07:03(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Can someone check the diagram and see if I have something wrong that is causing the trains to stop when both are on the crossing.


7192 and 7193 wiring set up currently with Problem.pdf (30kb) downloaded 80 time(s).
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 05 March 2023 12:23:38(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Hi Omac
On your schematics I see (and I may be wrong, so appologies if I am):
- the two accessory outputs are connected together which is very dangerous Never do such a thing
- power the gate crossing using one of the transfo accessory output NOT BOTH
- the rest seems OK

Just a shoot in the dark but I suspect your transfos are not in-phase (turn one of the power plugs by 180°)

What is required when using multiple transfos
- connect the brown plug ("0") together
- set the transfos in phase by setting the cursor of both transfos to a middle speed, use a 16 V bulb to power it between both "B" outputs. If the bulb lights up, then one of the transfo is out-of-phase so turn its power plug by 180° (half a turn). Better use multiple outlet strips
- never connect the live plugs (Yellow or Red) together. Why? Because, doing this, you may end up with the full mains power 220 or 110 VAC on one of the power connector when you unplug it and get yourself electrocuted

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline OMAC  
#3 Posted : 05 March 2023 19:43:08(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Thanks for your in-put Jean. Much appreciated. I will recheck on how to put the trafo's in phase.

I was trying to control the trains separately which worked fine until both trains were on the crossing. I tested the power to each track with a multimeter to ensure the power supply to the tracks were safe. The trafo to each track ranged from 3 to 19v and 26v on pulse. Lighting was 18v I did not measure the power supply when the trains were on the crossing because I turned off the power supply as soon as the sparking started. I thought this may have been doing as you say and making the power supply revert to 240v somehow?
So I have removed one of the trafo's and supplied each track from the one trafo. Power to the crossing from lighting. Both trains can now go through the crossing without sparking or stopping and the crossing bars work as they should. But speed of each train cannot be controlled separately.

I thought about isolating the 7193 between the tracks but would stop the one of the bars working maybe.

My question is: Is there a safe way I can control each train separately using 2 trafo's and have the crossing working correctly? I am thinking this is not possible.
If it is - then a wiring diagram would help me put it together safely.

I have managed to download a manual for 7192 but it does not show or talk about the use of a trafo on each track and how to connect the wiring.

Cheers Owen
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 05 March 2023 22:17:03(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: OMAC Go to Quoted Post
My question is: Is there a safe way I can control each train separately using 2 trafo's and have the crossing working correctly? I amthinking this is not possible.
If it is - then a wiring diagram would help me put it together safely.

You are almost there, in all safety:
- connect both transfo 0V (brown) together (You didn't do it yet I think)
- connect each circuit studs with the Red (B) of one tranfo (you already did I think)
- connect the Yellow (L) of one of the transfos to the gate crossing yellow cable. (You connected both transfos)

Thats it.

The phasing of transfos is, when you have a pair of switches (turn-outs) between the two circuits (with an insulation of course). When the phasing is not done, you see a strong spark at the slider level, because in this case , the voltage (B) of each transfo is adding with possibly a voltage of 20 or 30 VAC between them.

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
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My Layout
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Offline ccranium  
#5 Posted : 06 March 2023 03:17:01(UTC)
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ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle area
Hey Owen,
Jean is correct. The crossing is powered by the L (yellow) circuit only, and only from one of the trafos. The contact tracks on either track complete the circuit for the L wire directly to the O (brown) as a train passes on either track regardless of direction or speed, and independent of the power coming from the B (red) connections. Just be sure to get the phases aligned as he describes so you don't accidentally get double voltage anywhere on your layout.

Best,
Brian
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Offline OMAC  
#6 Posted : 06 March 2023 04:09:20(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Thanks to Jean and Brian for the info.

I did a test with both transformers going and checked the voltages were right to ensure they were in phase. They were.

I then followed Jean's instruction for wiring and bingo I have the train speeds working independently.

What a great forum for learners like me - your help was great - thanks

I was checking the track voltages when transformer was set at 150 as well as the tracks going through the double crossing and found a possible discrepancy.

One track prior to the crossing was at 14v and the crossing was at 5v - which I think is correct.
The other track prior to the crossing was at 14v but the crossing was at 33v - I Think I may have a short somewhere. However the trains do go through the crossing just fine.
I will investigate further.

Cheers Owen
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Offline ccranium  
#7 Posted : 06 March 2023 21:57:08(UTC)
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ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle area
Glad it's working better.

When you're measuring the voltages for B/red and L/yellow, they're both AC, not DC, in case you're changing the setting on your meter.

From a piko in the tracks adjacent to, or from the center rail within the crossing to any outside rail should be anywhere from ~4 to ~17VAC depending on the setting of the trafo for that track and it shouldn't drop off at all within the crossing on either track. From the L (yellow) wire to any outside rail anywhere should be a constant voltage of around 16VAC. 33VAC anywhere sounds like an out of phase or combined connection somewhere since none of the trafos have a 33VAC output. Make sure that the two tracks' B/red/piko/center rail connections are fully isolated from the other tracks' connections and that the L/yellow connection is only coming from one trafo and is also isolated from any of the B/red/piko/center rail connections.

You can also check for voltage from an outside rail to an O/brown stud on each trafo and from the other track; it should read ~0VAC everywhere, and then with the ohmmeter/continuity setting, it should have no or little resistance.

Hope that helps; I've found lots of my analog wiring faults in similar ways!
Brian
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Offline OMAC  
#8 Posted : 07 March 2023 04:01:51(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Hi Brian.
I forgot to mention the 33v reading was from one of the 5125 isolation sections. I tested from trafo's to each track - all fine
I have also pulled the track apart and tested them all for continuity. All good. Put the track back together and 33v is still there on one of the 5215 isolation sections.
The system is working fine but I must have a short somewhere. Will keep looking and testing as time permits as I like to know why and do a fix if necessary.

It's a good learning curve- I am enjoying the challenge.

Cheers Owen
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Offline ccranium  
#9 Posted : 07 March 2023 05:56:47(UTC)
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ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle area
Glad to help, as I'm on my back connecting a bunch of B, R and L myself tonite for different trafos under my layout.

If you update your diagram for what you have now, I'll be glad to weigh in if you'd like.

Brian
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Offline OMAC  
#10 Posted : 07 March 2023 07:39:38(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Hopefully I have managed to add an updated schematic below for you Brian:

Updated 7192 and 7193 connection.pdf (19kb) downloaded 25 time(s).

Cheers Owen
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Offline ccranium  
#11 Posted : 07 March 2023 18:35:56(UTC)
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ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle area
Hmmm, looks good. And the red marks for each track are on the same side of the track base on either end of the crossing?

Perhaps turn off all power, leave it all set up and use the ohmmeter to look for shorts? All the outside rails should be connected to each other and both O outputs, and not to any of the L, B's, pukos or center rails. The L shouldn't show connection to anything except the bus. The B's should only show connections to their respective pukos and center rails, and no connection to the L nor the other B, its pukos or center rail.



Best adventures with M track,
Brian (fellow analog M track "enthusiast")
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Offline OMAC  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2023 19:33:59(UTC)
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OMAC

New Zealand   
Joined: 14/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Whangarei, Auckland
Thanks again Brian.

I never thought to use ohm for fault finding.

Updated schematic attached.


7192 and 7193 wiring set up currently with Problem Ver 2.pdf (26kb) downloaded 22 time(s).

Cheers Owen
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Offline ccranium  
#13 Posted : 08 March 2023 01:59:15(UTC)
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ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle area
Hi Owen,
I hope you're getting it figured out. Glad to help.
Brian
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