I'm not sure if I had asked this question before or not, but here goes. I watch model railroad videos, especially those of European railroads because they use catenary more than we here in the U.S. do. I see layouts with extensive catenary arrays, but they are running their electrics with the pantographs down, meaning they are not using the cat wire for power pickup. Is there a reason for this? I thought it may be because of DCC that would render catenary not needed any longer. Sorry if I asked this before.

I did ask this question before, See next reply.

Hello Ronald and a Merry Christmas to you,

Yes this has been discussed before, but don’t be discouraged from asking questions.

The answer is not at all specific and indeed extraordinarily eclectic.

Some folk on our group are passionate vintage Märklineers and model in analogue with the original bent-to-the curves Märklin catenary. I understand, respect and appreciate their pursuit of the original vintage and admire it. They can run their analogue locos powered from the track (pukos) or from the overhead (where they have the added joy of seeing the electric sparks from the pantograph-running wire contacts and also of inhaling the wonderful ozone) thus doubling the number of (electric pantograph) locos immediately controllable on a particular track power section.

In the digital world most power their locos (including the electrics) from the track. This may be because early in the digital era Märklin declared that the digital signal was more reliable from the track than the overhead wire. However, our much-esteemed member from Perth, Western Australia, river6109, has conclusively shown on his very large layout that you can run many digital locos off the overhead wire without any problems.

Some folk run their digital electrics off the track because they have a mode of scenery wherbye they have all the masts and equipment etc to display the overhead catenary – all except the actual catenary wire . From what I have perceived of their interesting posts, this seems because they feel that even the thinnest model catenary wires currently made (e.g. by Sommerfeldt) are still much thicker in relative perspective ("scale") than the prototype. Some of these folk run their electric locos without the overhead wire but with their pantographs up. We should note that there are a number of extremely large commercial layouts in Europe that do the same – run their electrics with some pantograph elevation but with no actual running wire to the catenary, whilst having all the associated overhead-power paraphernalia.

Another group of folk have the full catenary wire but run their electric locos with the pantographs down or not fully raised (i.e. just short in height of contacting the running wire). My understanding is that they do this to avoid either wear of the pantograph, or of greater concern, prangs to raised pantographs exposed to unintentional obstruction and other hazards.

My opinion is but a drop in the bucket of our groups’ overall wealth of experience; I have full catenary (Sommerfeldt) and a digital layout but tend to run my electic locos powered from the track pukos with pantographs down to avoid the occasional (but expensive) prang – but fully up for forum photos and video, however ! .
This is because I have only one electric loco that remains analogue and not converted to digital (a beautiful old 3015) because I felt it sacrilegious to convert it to digital - so I run this loco as analogue using the overhead wire on my digital layout with a common "earth/ground/negative" via the outer rails.
Just my opinion, as I noted there is a wide variety of point of view on this wonderful group forum.

PJ

Hello Ronald,

Good questions.
Like Philip (PJMärklin) said, there are many valid approaches to using/pretending catenary.

I encourage anyone with time and patience to erect catenary, because as you say it lends a certain authenticity.
Thankfully with Märklin engines the pantographs are very robust, and with my occasional accidental hook-up between catenary and engine the pantograph always survives.
Sometimes with a little bit of re-assembly.

The hook-up does not happen often if you follow the manufacturers catenary erection instructions faithfully.
By the way I use Märklin catenary (latest productions) suited to C track.

Kimball

And I have already written about the use of pantographs and contact networks, with small layouts that we use occasionally, it is not difficult to control driving with raised pantographs. On large layouts (especially those for visitors) this is almost impossible and that is why they mostly drive with the pantographs lowered or even better fixed imperceptibly under the net. As locomotives cover long distances on these layouts, the upper part of the pantograph would be cut regardless of the polygonal guidance.

I use the 'old' Marklin catenary on M track, it is all analogue with bent wires going round corners, posts leaning on gradients etc etc. I'm nevertheless quite content.

Things go wrong when catenary gets tangled in clothing. More than once I have lifted an arm away and caused all sorts of mayhem to catenary and the track to which it is clipped by getting a sleeve caught on something.

But is still very satisfying and adjusting coach lighting while the train is in motion is an added feature.

There are all sorts of other tricks to consider. For example one can dispense with the services of the reversing switch in the loco by wiring the loco so that it goes in one direction on catenary power and the other way via track power.

Why bother?

Because I can!

Catenary installation is expensive and fiddly along with the drawbacks of accessing the tracks and getting clothing caught on it or the masts. But it does look impressive! There are travel limiters for the pantographs so that they are raised but are just below the catenary - this avoids catenary accidents and noise and still gives some realism to the movement of the electric locomotives.

Harold.

The main thing is to have fun watching your trains running !

Everyone has their own rules about it.


For me, who runs very old models most often, the old low priced and reliable catenary is perfect (the catenary is powered in analog mode).
I have a few digital models now (track powered) without any problem to run with the pantograph raised up (catenary not powered).
All the layout is covered with catenary, more than 100 masts, so more than 100 catenary parts even in all tunnels without a problem.



Best Regards
Joël

I haven't noticed any extra noise not with my catenary maybe the Märklin catenary with its wider(thicker) overheadwires creates a noise.

Catenary has far reaching applications and everyone has their own concept to use it or not to use it.

John

Edited by user 29 December 2021 15:00:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

There are a lot of good points in this thread. My only suggestion is to add the catenary close to the end of the scenery cycle. If you are ballasting or weathering track, do the catenary after. While it sounds robust, constantly doing scenery and other elements around installed catenary typically leads to an accidental bump of something that creates catenary rework.

Edited by user 29 December 2021 15:51:59(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

Thanks for the advice; sounds good.

Another approach now is to 3D print the catenary.

because:
a) putting it up in hidden areas adds even more cost.. and hassle.
b) Catenary does not add anything to digital running beyond the visual aspect of it. It used to add the ability of adding additional analog control circuits.
c) maintaining running trains is enough of a task as it is without adding another layer of complexity for no functional advantage.

The reasons for doing it are similar to the reasons that we don't always interlock signals with turnouts, we typically don't insist of having track ahead of a stopping area clear of any train before bringing a train into a station, we don't electrify the Indusi magnets, etc. etc. The tradeoff between the effort and the visual result are just not worth it to most people.

Try it.

It certainly adds realism! I haven't any. It isn't inexpensive either. I think if you don't add it in hidden areas, a pantograph can spring up higher, then catch the next wire hanger and cause a crash.
A dilemma for me would be installing it on a 5 metre double track bridge.
I haven't also ballasted the C track. I need to be able to lift a section up for connecting feeder wires.
Tunnels are tricky as well. I have a curved one on a corner, under a mountain. Because of the R 3 radii parallel double track for clearance of 303 mm coaches, it is unpritotypically high, and wide. Longer cars passing through can still rub and derail on occasion, thus I'm even more aprhensive.
I don't have room between the tracks for masts, and may only on the inside curve.
Perhaps it was poor planning n my part, but I wanted the Mountain for a television tower and cable car. When I install that, a castle is moving to the back inside corner.
It has been said in the past that an avid modeler builds three layouts in a lifetime. My current is my second. I don't know if there will be a third, but it is conceived.
I would eliminate the double 4x8' horse shoe and make it a large L. Having 12 feet in one parade route would give more space to ascend to a higher grade, and accommodate a hidden staging yard.

Yes Dale, but many of us like Electric Locs. and trains. Most of what I have, but I do have steam, diesel, and I mix era's anyhow.

I use the old style Maerklin Catenary. One can still find many pieces on ebay. I ,too, have a mix of the three Lok types with electrics being in the

majority. Some of the newer electrics have delicate pantographs and even though my catenary is well set up it's just safer to run these newer loks

with the pantos down. Regarding the masts, I have taken the base part off all masts that clip under the track so all my masts are screwed down. Yes,

I know some day they'll probably not be worth much for resale but I prefer this method as it makes the C/M tracks with less of a bump underneath

where the base would have been. A catenary system, I feel, really adds depth to the railway. Cheers. Peter.