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Offline Eddie7979  
#1 Posted : 04 January 2023 06:01:00(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Hi all,

I’m working on my layout and in the process of installing catenary masts. I’ve done my research, looking at Marklin and Viessmann as some viable options, then bought some masts / wires just to see how they are put together. I’ve also invested in the mast jig as well, which seems really useful.

While it all seems to be going well, I’ve hit a roadblock when dealing with curves other than the standard R1 and R2. Instead of helping, the Marklin instructions I found online says ‘it will be quite common for you to search out your own solution for catenary installations’ - thanks for that!

So, I’m wondering if anyone has any guides you can share when installing catenary masts / wires around curves, especially for the following combinations:

- 24230 + 24330 + 24230
- 24130 + 24230 + 24230
- 24230 + 24330 + 24330
- 24530 + 24430 + 24530

I could change those curves to the standard R1 and R2 combinations but it just wouldn’t look right (besides I’ve already cut out all the MDF supports for the rails).

I’m thinking Viessemann might be the best way to go here, the catenary wire can be cut to length using a special plier.

Any help would be so appreciated.

Regards,

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & Rocrail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Eddie7979
Offline Toosmall  
#2 Posted : 04 January 2023 13:19:15(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
A bit like Z gauge, you may have to cut & solder.

_MG_75950_063458.jpg

I did manage to avoided cutting, but it took an awful lot of calculating at the design stage and a few comprises. With hindsight a bit of cutting would have been better. Which I did anyway across module joins as planned.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline kimballthurlow  
#3 Posted : 04 January 2023 22:25:09(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello Eddie,

Firstly I am assuming you have used the latest series of Märklin catenary for C track.
I have close to 30 metres of this catenary installed on my layout.
For curves I chose to use the smallest span possible even though I had to spend more on masts and wire.
I just wanted to ameliorate the likelihood of mishaps and snagging.
This meant buying plenty of the shortest wire 70142 and the standard mast 74101.

While writing this reply I used the Märklin website to track the different catenary parts.
I resorted to using the printed catalogue - it was difficult on the website to find what I was looking for.
Page 225 of the catalogue (German version, the English may have a different Page no) has very good advice on the catenary geometry.
So they say 70142 wire for R1 (Radius 1 track) and longer for R2, R3 etc. (70172, 70203 .....).
I basically ignored this advice and used 70142 for R1 and larger, then 70172 for R4 and R5.
Even then I kept to shorter wires than recommended where I thought it suited my purpose.

Basically my strategy proved to be correct.
I even have this arrangement inside tunnels and may have one snag a year when I get a new locomotive with a different style of pantograph.
I then do the necessary adjustments on the catenary - usually adjust position of wire clamp on a couple of pole outrigger arms.

The only problem I find with catenary is that it hinders cleaning the track.
Even when I do catch my hands or vacuum cleaner on the catenary it is robust enough to spring back in poaition without any ill effects.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Toosmall  
#4 Posted : 04 January 2023 23:11:17(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
Good points.


I will iterate, in Z the adjustment catenary I always reduced to the minimum length where possible, ie parallel curved tracks. Fixed length on outside curve and reduced length on adjustable catenary on inside radius.

Always use the shorter spans where possible.

Just build lead in sections of catenary at tunnels properly first time. I have soldered mine to solid over engineered metal structure, some spare Z gauge rail bent at the end through the PVC tube tunnel portals, as I would have to otherwise destroy the layout to rebuild these sections of catenary.

Have plenty of spares. In masts alone I have over 30 spares, maybe gone a bit overboard, but catenary is something you accidentally damage while doing mundane modelling tasks like cleaning. I have taken out 6 masts in one go.

IMG_1391.jpg

IMG_1411.jpg

If you do not put the effort in and get the "foundations" right you will have endless frustration.

I also specifically designed the mast position outside the tunnel to be in a position to be easily replaceable if I happen to squash those ones.

Don't try to save money on catenary by increasing spans, it will bite you on the bum later.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline fkowal  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2023 14:58:34(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
It is very good to see catenary users actually running with catenary as opposed to the too often seen "pantograph down" videos.

I am veteran "old Märklin" stamped catenary user, and am expanding my layout with the current generation Viessmann catenary for the first time.

I am happy to hear, Kimball, about your success.

Operational reliability is key with catenary. Kimball, what is the longest straight section of catenary you find to be stable, that is operationally reliable? Viessmann has sections 400mm+. Are they trustworthy, or should I go shorter?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Frank
Offline kimballthurlow  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2023 07:57:52(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
.... Kimball, what is the longest straight section of catenary you find to be stable, that is operationally reliable? Viessmann has sections 400mm+. Are they trustworthy, or should I go shorter?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Frank



Hello Frank,
Thanks for your question.

I am talking about the current catenary/mast sytem available from Märklin.
Märklin do a 360mm straight and I have used it in a few areas but am not that happy with it. It can bow sideways a bit.
I think in about 10 years I have had 2 or 3 snags because of the sideways shift.
To be honest that happens because an adjacent sliding adjustment catenary has slipped and allowed one mast to shift out of position awkwardly.
The other straights range from 142mm to 253mm and these have given me no trouble.
The adjustment catenary which allows you to rig up any length is 231mm + whatever you cut from another length.

I dont know how Viessmann works. Maybe it is the same principle where you have fixed sections like Märklin.
There is one system where the wire is under tension, maybe that is Sommerfeldt.

What I like about the Märklin system is it is robust, that has been proven many times to me.
When you bang, poke or hit it with something (it happens) it all springs back into position very well.
But I believe you need to spend time on following the instructions and position the masts accordingly.
It took me nearly a year to complete my catenary system on a layout where it took only a week to assemble 95% of the trackwork.
I had a stroke when I was halfway through the catenary exercise, otherwise it probably may have taken me a quarter of the time.
However, the rehabilatory assistance of installing the system was probably priceless.
Because I was using my brain and my arms and fingers.
As was making bread from scratch!!

When I started I purchased the Märklin catenary starter kit that had everthing- jigs, instructions, basic masts and catenary etc.
I believe it is no longer available, but the jigs are - 70012 and 70011.

regards
Kimball


HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Eddie7979  
#7 Posted : 13 January 2023 01:45:44(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hello Eddie,

Firstly I am assuming you have used the latest series of Märklin catenary for C track.
I have close to 30 metres of this catenary installed on my layout.
For curves I chose to use the smallest span possible even though I had to spend more on masts and wire.
I just wanted to ameliorate the likelihood of mishaps and snagging.
This meant buying plenty of the shortest wire 70142 and the standard mast 74101.

While writing this reply I used the Märklin website to track the different catenary parts.
I resorted to using the printed catalogue - it was difficult on the website to find what I was looking for.
Page 225 of the catalogue (German version, the English may have a different Page no) has very good advice on the catenary geometry.
So they say 70142 wire for R1 (Radius 1 track) and longer for R2, R3 etc. (70172, 70203 .....).
I basically ignored this advice and used 70142 for R1 and larger, then 70172 for R4 and R5.
Even then I kept to shorter wires than recommended where I thought it suited my purpose.

Basically my strategy proved to be correct.
I even have this arrangement inside tunnels and may have one snag a year when I get a new locomotive with a different style of pantograph.
I then do the necessary adjustments on the catenary - usually adjust position of wire clamp on a couple of pole outrigger arms.

The only problem I find with catenary is that it hinders cleaning the track.
Even when I do catch my hands or vacuum cleaner on the catenary it is robust enough to spring back in poaition without any ill effects.

Kimball


Thank you for sharing, that’s really helpful.

I’ve decided to use the Viessmann tunnel catenary set for the hidden parts of my layout and I will following your strategy when I’m using the regular masts / wire. It’s been a real challenge (and continuing to be).

I am heading more towards Viessmann, I like the thought of being able to cut wires to length and then use the tool they sell to make the hook.

Wish me luck!
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & Rocrail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Eddie7979
Offline Eddie7979  
#8 Posted : 13 January 2023 01:53:26(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
.... Kimball, what is the longest straight section of catenary you find to be stable, that is operationally reliable? Viessmann has sections 400mm+. Are they trustworthy, or should I go shorter?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Frank



Hello Frank,
Thanks for your question.

I am talking about the current catenary/mast sytem available from Märklin.
Märklin do a 360mm straight and I have used it in a few areas but am not that happy with it. It can bow sideways a bit.
I think in about 10 years I have had 2 or 3 snags because of the sideways shift.
To be honest that happens because an adjacent sliding adjustment catenary has slipped and allowed one mast to shift out of position awkwardly.
The other straights range from 142mm to 253mm and these have given me no trouble.
The adjustment catenary which allows you to rig up any length is 231mm + whatever you cut from another length.

I dont know how Viessmann works. Maybe it is the same principle where you have fixed sections like Märklin.
There is one system where the wire is under tension, maybe that is Sommerfeldt.

What I like about the Märklin system is it is robust, that has been proven many times to me.
When you bang, poke or hit it with something (it happens) it all springs back into position very well.
But I believe you need to spend time on following the instructions and position the masts accordingly.
It took me nearly a year to complete my catenary system on a layout where it took only a week to assemble 95% of the trackwork.
I had a stroke when I was halfway through the catenary exercise, otherwise it probably may have taken me a quarter of the time.
However, the rehabilatory assistance of installing the system was probably priceless.
Because I was using my brain and my arms and fingers.
As was making bread from scratch!!

When I started I purchased the Märklin catenary starter kit that had everthing- jigs, instructions, basic masts and catenary etc.
I believe it is no longer available, but the jigs are - 70012 and 70011.

regards
Kimball




This is great info!

Also, well done on your recovery after your stroke - must have been so difficult. It shows you have strong will power. Wishing you the best for your health
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & Rocrail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Eddie7979
Offline Eddie7979  
#9 Posted : 13 January 2023 11:52:56(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hello Eddie,

Firstly I am assuming you have used the latest series of Märklin catenary for C track.
I have close to 30 metres of this catenary installed on my layout.
For curves I chose to use the smallest span possible even though I had to spend more on masts and wire.
I just wanted to ameliorate the likelihood of mishaps and snagging.
This meant buying plenty of the shortest wire 70142 and the standard mast 74101.

While writing this reply I used the Märklin website to track the different catenary parts.
I resorted to using the printed catalogue - it was difficult on the website to find what I was looking for.
Page 225 of the catalogue (German version, the English may have a different Page no) has very good advice on the catenary geometry.
So they say 70142 wire for R1 (Radius 1 track) and longer for R2, R3 etc. (70172, 70203 .....).
I basically ignored this advice and used 70142 for R1 and larger, then 70172 for R4 and R5.
Even then I kept to shorter wires than recommended where I thought it suited my purpose.

Basically my strategy proved to be correct.
I even have this arrangement inside tunnels and may have one snag a year when I get a new locomotive with a different style of pantograph.
I then do the necessary adjustments on the catenary - usually adjust position of wire clamp on a couple of pole outrigger arms.

The only problem I find with catenary is that it hinders cleaning the track.
Even when I do catch my hands or vacuum cleaner on the catenary it is robust enough to spring back in poaition without any ill effects.

Kimball


I have one more question, you mentioned using 70142 for the R2 C Track. When fitting it, did you have to shorten is?

If so, how much shorter did you go? Did you use the adjustment piece from Marklin (70231)?
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & Rocrail
Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 15 January 2023 11:56:39(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Eddie7979 Go to Quoted Post
....

I have one more question, you mentioned using 70142 for the R2 C Track. When fitting it, did you have to shorten is?

If so, how much shorter did you go? Did you use the adjustment piece from Marklin (70231)?


Hi Eddie,

I never shortened any of my catenary sections (regardless of radius) until I came to a turnout (if catenary on both main and branch) or crossing (if catenary on both tracks).
Nor did I shorten for where a straight track (tangent) joins a curve track. The standard catenary length can work fine across the transition from straight to curve.
The explanation below may help.

Within my 30 odd metres of catenary, I used only about 3 or 4 of the 70231 adjustment sections.
If you follow the Märklin instructions for setting up catenary, you start the first post at the toe (front) of a turnout (any turnout where you want catenary on main and branch track).
That means you start one way along the track, and the other way along 2 tracks (one main, and one branch).
And then you place each post to suit the catenary length, according to the post mounting jig supplied by Märklin.
It is quite involved.
(You do NOT place posts to match track joints, you place posts to match catenary length).

You do not cut the catenary sections until you get to another turnout or crossing, and only then do you likely need another 70231.
(It would be rare for post spacing to exactly match the track joints).
Setting up the posts is the critical bit, they have to be almost perfect (which means + or - 3mm).

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
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