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Offline alonso231gery  
#1 Posted : 26 July 2006 01:31:07(UTC)
alonso231gery

Greece   
Joined: 24/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,959
Location: Hellas (Athens)
I have heard that the scale of every loco is 1:87
and wagon's (or freight wagons) scale is 1:100 is that true?
An outsider.
I'm looking for the owner of that horse. He's tall, blonde, he smokes a cigar, and he's a pig!
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#2 Posted : 26 July 2006 02:10:41(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,248
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
It's true that most (not all) coaches are not really 1:87. This due to the increased playability of shorter coaches compared to longer ones. The scale of most Märklin coaches (except some new models announced this year) is 1:87, but the length is shortened to a 1:100 scale. Fleischmann does the same thing, usually 1:92.5 length scale. Roco has both 1:100 length scale and "true" 1:87 length scale coaches in their catalogue.

Loco's are usually (almost) precisely 1:87 scale. (Exception: Adler, that train is 1:92 scale completely)
Sander
---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 26 July 2006 02:54:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,467
Location: DE-NW
Coaches that are 26,4 m long are available as 24 cm M* models (scale 1:110), as 26,4 cm models (scale 1:100).
New M* coaches announced this year will be closer to 1:87, but still are too short.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline McLae  
#4 Posted : 26 July 2006 04:15:35(UTC)
McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
Items over about 200cm have trouble making it past R1 curves. (Especially if you have catenary![:0])
Most Loks are less than 200cm even in full 1:87 scale.
Coaches, long heavy flat cars, railway guns[}:)] could be too long if in correct scale length.

Marklin large steam Loks have a hinge im the middle of the frame to let the Loks handle 360mm curves. Patented, so no other maker can have a hinge.[xx(]

Most Marklin coaches are 1:100 length. Other makers are starting to have shorter coaches too. (Roco, Klein M., etcbiggrin)
The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
Offline viragoLDR  
#5 Posted : 26 July 2006 12:03:22(UTC)
viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
200cm loco's? What are you running, scale 1 big boys? ;)
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
Offline Basil  
#6 Posted : 26 July 2006 15:08:14(UTC)
Basil


Joined: 25/06/2006(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: ATHENS
As I am new in the forum and in modelling I`m not sure in saying that Marklin made coaches in 1:110 scale (24 cm.)up to 2003 because as stated by others 24cm was more practical for curves. Since 2003 Marklin started in 1:100 {27cm )These coaches are not shortened to scale. This is done by omitting compartments or windows. If a coach has 12 compartments the Marklin model has 10. Fleisccmann has 1:93,5 scale . True 1:87 scale are made by Roco nad Lima .Generaly speaking
1:110....24cm
1:100....27cm
1:93,5...28,2cm
1:87.....30,3cm
Please correct me if i`m wrong
Offline hxmiesa  
#7 Posted : 26 July 2006 16:39:18(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Basil
Please correct me if i`m wrong


Right... ;-)

1:100 has been produced by Märklin for more than 30 years. (Not sure about the exact year though)

You are very right about the way Märklin has shortened the wagons; omitting entire compartments. This makes mixing 1:100 wagons from Fleischmann and Roco almost impossible, as these manufacturers did NOT omit compartments.
The 1:100 wagons from Roco are (were?) in fact Ade-wagons which they got when they bought out Röwa. Ade wagons can still be bought en kit-form.

Apart from the new 1:93 which Fleischmann "discovered" some 6 years ago, there are also other scales like 1:88,5, 1:90 etc... liberally used by the manufacturers today. (Go check the scale of some ICE-3 ;-)

The new Insider VT08 is actually 1:93, like the new wagons announced this year from Märklin.

Why 1:93; supposedly that is the max. size (length) for trains going round a R1 curve without picking up each and every caternary masts, signals, tunnels and rolling stock on parallel tracks.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline MHauge  
#8 Posted : 26 July 2006 21:10:05(UTC)
MHauge


Joined: 19/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 393
Location: Aarhus C, DK
My longest wagon is a Märklin 48037 DSB "Habbins", it measures close to 27 cm from buffer to buffer, it has problems with my tunnels, didn't have anything this long when i installed the tunnels, it has the option to move the wheel-boogies, so i can make it run fine, but it looks strange when they get close enough.

My point is:
Long wagons+tunnels in R1 curves is not a good idea...

Michael
Märklin C-tracks, Mobile Station, Danish Ep 4
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 27 July 2006 14:17:45(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by MHauge
<br />My longest wagon is a Märklin 48037 DSB "Habbins", it measures close to 27 cm from buffer to buffer, it has problems with my tunnels, didn't have anything this long when i installed the tunnels, it has the option to move the wheel-boogies, so i can make it run fine, but it looks strange when they get close enough.
Long wagons+tunnels in R1 curves is not a good idea...


I agree! I have the same wagon, and on my previous layout, it didnt go through all tunnels.
That´s why I have used this particular wagon as test-vehicle this time, when building my layout!
Alas it hit a spike in the rail (a provisional spike not nailed all the way down)
RIP+++

BTW; Kibri makes a tunnel-portal fit for M and C track geometry. (Sorry, dont remember the ref#)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Munich 1860  
#10 Posted : 27 July 2006 18:36:45(UTC)
Munich 1860

Germany   
Joined: 04/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,062
Location: Neu-Ulm, Bavaria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by alonso231gery
<br />I have heard that the scale of every loco is 1:87
Where have you heard this ??? Not true for MANY locos from Märklin !!!!

Hans
I like M-track and my things that run on it were built between 1959 and 1972.
Offline alonso231gery  
#11 Posted : 27 July 2006 23:21:40(UTC)
alonso231gery

Greece   
Joined: 24/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,959
Location: Hellas (Athens)
A little bird told me thatbiggrin.(kidding)
A friend of mine told me that,who has many locomotives and knows many things.
I decided to open this topic so as to know if he is correct.wink
An outsider.
I'm looking for the owner of that horse. He's tall, blonde, he smokes a cigar, and he's a pig!
Offline Munich 1860  
#12 Posted : 28 July 2006 15:23:10(UTC)
Munich 1860

Germany   
Joined: 04/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,062
Location: Neu-Ulm, Bavaria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by alonso231gery
<br />A little bird told me thatbiggrin.(kidding)
A friend of mine told me that,who has many locomotives and knows many things.
I decided to open this topic so as to know if he is correct.wink

Go ask your friend whether he thinks that 3015 the old crocodile, 3053 / 3054 the E03 / 103, in fact ALL Märklin E 03's, and especially the series 218, because they are much newer, are in fact in scale 1:87 .....

I wonder how many things he knows and will tell you ....

Hans
I like M-track and my things that run on it were built between 1959 and 1972.
Offline alonso231gery  
#13 Posted : 28 July 2006 19:11:08(UTC)
alonso231gery

Greece   
Joined: 24/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,959
Location: Hellas (Athens)
I said he knows many things not everything like you.
B.t.w. i sense that you are right.
There are always exceptions Hans, but the basic rule is 1:87 for the locomotives and shorter wagons...

He said me that that applies for the new locomotives...
So maybe you are both right.wink
An outsider.
I'm looking for the owner of that horse. He's tall, blonde, he smokes a cigar, and he's a pig!
Offline verheyen  
#14 Posted : 28 July 2006 19:49:45(UTC)
verheyen


Joined: 25/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 639
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by alonso231gery
<br />
There are always exceptions Hans, but the basic rule is 1:87 for the locomotives and shorter wagons...


An not for all wagons. The shorter coaches (2 axle, 4 axle Umbauwagen and many others) are 1:87
Offline jonquinn  
#15 Posted : 28 July 2006 21:06:54(UTC)
jonquinn


Joined: 15/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,591
Location: Pennsylvania
what is the scale (or maybe scales) of the old 3016 crocodile, and the older E03's?
the old crocodile looks larger than 1/87. (I don't have one of the old ones.)
Offline verheyen  
#16 Posted : 29 July 2006 00:24:59(UTC)
verheyen


Joined: 25/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 639
Location: ,
As far as I know, the 3016, and also the SE(T)800 /E44... are closer to 00 than H0. The older E03 is shorter than 1:87. I believe the E41 and some others are too.

p.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jonquinn
<br />what is the scale (or maybe scales) of the old 3016 crocodile, and the older E03's?
the old crocodile looks larger than 1/87. (I don't have one of the old ones.)
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 29 July 2006 03:18:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,467
Location: DE-NW
Up to 2005 M* produced class 110 that are too short (Kastenlok) and class 110 that are too long (Bügelfalte, trucks and frame are actually taken from class 111).
The new E 10.3 should be 1:87!

Don't expect class 218 to be 1:87 ...

And even if they write 1:87 in the catalog, you may get something different (ICE is 1:88.x or 1:89.x, not 1:87). That's why the sued Piko - they ICE 3 is exactly as long as M*, so this none is not 1:87 either ...
Edit: according to MIBA the scale of the ICE 3 is 1:88.8.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline john black  
#18 Posted : 29 July 2006 09:22:58(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by verheyen
<br />and also the SE(T)800 /E44 are closer to 00 than H0

Thanks, Peter. I always wondered why my old P#2702 E44 is standing that tall ... [:0]
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline Hemmerich  
#19 Posted : 30 July 2006 20:10:09(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa
1:100 has been produced by Märklin for more than 30 years. (Not sure about the exact year though)


To be specific - 1973. It was the so called "Popwagen" #4091 thru #4094 with a scale of 1:98 for the 26,4m cars and 1:102 for the 27,5m cars. Here's a picture of three of them. As you might see, I've converted them in the meantime to short coupling which makes a much nicer train with other new cars, especially those from the sets #26512 and #42943.

UserPostedImage

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:You are very right about the way Märklin has shortened the wagons; omitting entire compartments. This makes mixing 1:100 wagons from Fleischmann and Roco almost impossible, as these manufacturers did NOT omit compartments.


Not really. Mixing them is not really an issue. The only (wellknown) problem is proper coupling with the ROCO cars due to their lower buffers. Bottom to top: Märklin #4292, #4092 (as well converted to short coupling), GFN #5199, ROCO #44390.

UserPostedImage

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: The 1:100 wagons from Roco are (were?) in fact Ade-wagons which they got when they bought out Röwa. Ade wagons can still be bought en kit-form.


The ROCO cars are actually former RÖWA cars. The ADE cars were offered in scale 1:87 by Mr. Ade from his small own company that was left for him from the RÖWA crash.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Apart from the new 1:93 which Fleischmann "discovered" some 6 years ago, there are also other scales like 1:88,5, 1:90 etc... liberally used by the manufacturers today. (Go check the scale of some ICE-3 ;-)

The new Insider VT08 is actually 1:93, like the new wagons announced this year from Märklin.

Why 1:93; supposedly that is the max. size (length) for trains going round a R1 curve without picking up each and every caternary masts, signals, tunnels and rolling stock on parallel tracks.


Correct!

Even more/better - the GFN cars will fit almost ideal to the new Märklin cars, even though they already fit quite well to the 1:100 Märklin cars! (second car from top on following pic).

UserPostedImage

Fleischmann actually offers their 282mm cars already since 1989 with the announcement of their IR models. Due to the relative long delay of Märklin to offer their IR Bistro, I had purchased the 282mm GFN model and it was just perfect! (again second car from top).

UserPostedImage

In summary, the difference between the current Märklin 1:100 and the new 1:93,5 cars is much less harming than the real large step from 1:100 to 1:87.

Offline Hemmerich  
#20 Posted : 30 July 2006 20:13:57(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero
That's why the sued Piko - they ICE 3 is exactly as long as M*, so this none is not 1:87 either ...


The same scale is not one of the real reasons for the plagiat sue (which is actually dealt about on 30.10.2006 at the court in Köln).
Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 30 July 2006 20:35:30(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
Not really. Mixing them is not really an issue. The only (wellknown) problem is proper coupling with the ROCO cars due to their lower buffers. Bottom to top: Märklin #4292, #4092 (as well converted to short coupling), GFN #5199, ROCO #44390.


First of all I thank you for your additional comments.
But I must disaggree about the above quote; When I say that it is "almost impossible" to mix the waggons, I am not talking about a technical couplings problem, but about the HUUUGE estethic problem in mixing SAME cars from different manufactores, when some has 8 and other 9(?) compartments (1st class), or 10 and 11(?) compartments (2nd class); Thereby making a Roco 1st class car almost EQUAL to a Märklin 2nd class!!!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#22 Posted : 30 July 2006 20:43:46(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
To be specific - 1973. It was the so called "Popwagen" #4091 thru #4094 with a scale of 1:98 for the 26,4m cars and 1:102 for the 27,5m cars. Here's a picture of three of them. As you might see, I've converted them in the meantime to short coupling which makes a much nicer train with other new cars, especially those from the sets #26512 and #42943.


One question;

I have a couple of these vintage waggons, especially a bordeaux/grey dining car which I am very fond of, BUT they are so old that the they are capable of negotiating the big lanterns on the old M-track switches! I would like to change that, to a bogie similar to later versions of the same coaches (about 5mm shorter bogie)
Do you know what is needed? Just the two bogies, or must the whole bottom of the car be changes (or will it suffice to drill new holes for the bogies in the bottom?)

Anybody in the know?

Thanks.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Hemmerich  
#23 Posted : 31 July 2006 01:02:18(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Unfortunately, these "vintage" models have a bottom construction including the bogies and the way how they are mounted which IMHO cannot be converted to a short coupling version (maybe oly with a special kit from Symoba). Even worse, if you try to open the coupling holder to only replace the coupling with a new one it usually just breaks.

UserPostedImage

Therefor I simply replaced the complete bottom section by ordering the spare parts for the new cars. Now I not only have the advantage of the short coupling but also the electric connection for the interior lighting without the need for a contact shoe at every car.

I cannot tell you if this will solve your M-Switch lantern problem since I sold all my M-Track stuff to a friend in Boise, ID already many years ago. Lucky enough, Märklin came up with their Alpha tracks right in time again for my kids! Smile
Offline Hemmerich  
#24 Posted : 31 July 2006 01:29:56(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa
When I say that it is "almost impossible" to mix the waggons, I am not talking about a technical couplings problem, but about the HUUUGE estethic problem in mixing SAME cars from different manufactores

Henrik,

I did and do understand your issue, but I never encountered or felt this myself as "huge". It's simply a fact or the evel of acceptance for certain compromises that each manufacturer has to make with his models.

And honestly, in most cases my so called "Wagenumlaufpläne" (car usage plans) just by mystery Cool have cars from only one supplier in a specific order or even train.

If someone isn't willing to make certain compromises then Märklin as little as any other model manufacturer is probably able to fulfil the user expections - the only answer can then be "go prototypical"! biggrin

In comparison of the 1:100 - 1:93,5 vs. 1:100 - 1:87 cars, the new 282mm Märklin cars are a much better fit, especially in an "esthetic" view. The following picture also shows how well even certain cars from different manufacturers (here Märklin & ROCO Eurofima) can fit together. The ROCO dining car is just perfect for the EC 65/66 "Mozart", one of my favorite trains.

UserPostedImage

From top to bottom:

1:100 ROCO dining car WRmoz #44312 orn
1:100 ROCO 2. class car Bmoz #44309 orn
1:100 Märklin 2. class car Bmoz #4167 (converted to short coupling) orn
1:87 ROCO 1./2. class car ABmz #44640 orn
1:87 ROCO 1. class car Amz #44665 dark red
1:100 Märklin 1. class car Amz #4272 dark red
1:100 ROCO dining car WRmz #44234 dark red



Offline Spoetnik  
#25 Posted : 31 July 2006 15:14:10(UTC)
Spoetnik


Joined: 08/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Apeldoorn,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich


Useful pictures Lutz!
Offline alonso231gery  
#26 Posted : 01 August 2006 18:39:26(UTC)
alonso231gery

Greece   
Joined: 24/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,959
Location: Hellas (Athens)
Yes,thanks to Lutz i understood perfectly what i did not know.

Ps:"bring back the flag".
An outsider.
I'm looking for the owner of that horse. He's tall, blonde, he smokes a cigar, and he's a pig!
Offline Vardex  
#27 Posted : 05 August 2006 22:21:47(UTC)
Vardex

Netherlands   
Joined: 26/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 404
Location: vlaardingen,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:[i]

Don't expect class 218 to be 1:87 ...


Sorry to say this;but M doesn't have a class 218.
They make only class 216 that are pretty close to 1:87.
Sure,they print 218 on it,but it still is a 216.

Bart
Offline steventrain  
#28 Posted : 06 August 2006 11:56:42(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,705
Location: United Kingdom
Nice collection of coaches.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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by kiwiAlan 11/08/2022 17:01:47(UTC)
Z scale winter back-scenes (Small scale)
by georgi UK 26/07/2022 19:21:12(UTC)
Calculating a scale for using MARKLIN HO track (General MRR)
by nzrabbitty 20/05/2022 05:24:09(UTC)
Scale Trains has acquired the HO scale moulds from MTH (General MRR)
by I_love_Marklin_37538 14/05/2022 09:03:03(UTC)
Cars and trucks in HO scale (H0-scale)
by Mr. Ron 07/05/2022 07:26:42(UTC)
Z scale locomotive user manuals (Small scale)
by thomas buckley 28/03/2022 04:44:43(UTC)
3-axle Marklin 1-scale coaches: Any lighting suggestions? (Big scale)
by cramcke 01/02/2022 17:47:53(UTC)
HO Scale Automotive tunnel Portals (H0-scale)
by frickwg 21/01/2022 01:21:26(UTC)
DB BR80 scale z (Collector's Corner general)
by Karl K. 06/01/2022 21:48:45(UTC)
My start in Z scale... (Small scale)
by Donb 18/12/2021 20:12:19(UTC)
A German hotel model using a HO scale Kibri kit (Model kits & layout details, kitbashing and such)
by kimballthurlow 18/12/2021 11:32:10(UTC)
Faller Scale and Model Numbers (Faller collectibles and other vintage accessories)
by Saulo35 18/12/2021 01:35:59(UTC)
N scale Folkstone channel tunnel layout (Great layouts I have seen...)
by marklinist5999 08/12/2021 16:47:59(UTC)
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