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Offline David Dewar  
#151 Posted : 14 August 2008 18:35:48(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
David Thanks for info on Roco. The ones I had also had bits coming off but I was able to put on the extras in the box. The cardan drives both went after a while and although i fixed one of them i gave up on the other. As you say they are smoooth runners but I have since stuck with M, Brawa amd HAG.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Goofy  
#152 Posted : 14 August 2008 19:23:49(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,031
The best way to save money,it will been to placement two different software in one CS.

So customer can choesing either MM or and DCC by playing trains on the table.

Marklin should been more smarter to keep customer by supporting and helping them.

Why else to producing two CS with differens software byself,when it cost too much money by acting like this...?

I hope so,that Marklins new SCT2 will this time satisfaction customer.

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline john black  
#153 Posted : 14 August 2008 20:12:12(UTC)
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john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />BTW, people who know me will know that this is not how I would normally speak to someone ...

We know ... [}:)]. Just kidding, David - you and Ray are perfectly allright, friends biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
It's the way we speak when the ladies forgot stocking up the cave ... oops, fridge [xx(]

Seriously - great discussion. And with that "freely programmable hardware controller"
idea you (Per, BigDaddy & Juhan) surely created one most clever and viable solution Cool
If those amateurs at M's helm only would listen ...
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#154 Posted : 15 August 2008 00:16:49(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Lutz, you just don't give up do you. You've been banned from other forums for disruptive behaviour, yet you cannot resist making smart, personal comments to / about other members. Lord only knows what I've done to get under your skin. Quite simply I and others have had ENOUGH of your nonsense, if you can't get that into your head, well I pity you.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS ABOUT OTHER FORUM MEMBERS TO YOURSELF.
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Offline Piper  
#155 Posted : 15 August 2008 00:28:39(UTC)
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Piper

South Africa   
Joined: 13/09/2005(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: Johannesburg
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />Lutz, you just don't give up do you.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS ABOUT OTHER FORUM MEMBERS TO YOURSELF.


Bud, you do axactly what you say Lutz is doing.

I agree 100% with Lutz, I do not buy any product unless it has mfx. I like my central station and I'm glad I listened to my suppliers to stick to M and not change to 3rd party stuff.
biggrinbiggrinbiggrin




Era I-V / HO / C-Track / MS2, CS2 & CS3 Z gauge. Insider
Member of Märklin Modellers Group
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Offline john black  
#156 Posted : 15 August 2008 00:50:05(UTC)
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john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />Märklin ... mfx ... will never give away their cream pies

Cream pie confused Somehow your cream got a bit sour, huh ... [}:)]
Calling M's latest digital adventure [xx(] a "cream pie" is the joke of the year biggrinbiggrinbiggrin

Ya get first prize for this, fella. And now let's wait for CS II ... biggrin

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#157 Posted : 15 August 2008 00:58:54(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Yeah John, I would have called it more like a putrefying sore, given the debacle systems / mfx has been, but then I thought Lutz might take more offense to that.

Oh Well!
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Offline john black  
#158 Posted : 15 August 2008 01:15:16(UTC)
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john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
David, we all have the right to fight for our opinion. And also to wear pink glasses Smile

But no M rep can tell me his world is perfectly fine when they
have to fire their latest top controller and their newest CEO ... biggrin[}:)]

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#159 Posted : 15 August 2008 02:30:02(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />And also to wear pink glasses Smile


Or in Nev's case a pink pinny....
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Offline john black  
#160 Posted : 15 August 2008 02:40:41(UTC)
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john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Oh yeah, Nev's notorious pink pinny ... One of our Allied Forces secret weapon biggrin
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline Roger E  
#161 Posted : 15 August 2008 03:23:07(UTC)
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Roger E


Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: Asker, Norway
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />..
Most Märklin customers really like the "plug-and-play" idea that was (re-)introduced in the digital model railroad world with Märklin Systems. These customers have neither any interest nor desire to fiddle around with self-installation of 3rd party decoders, having to cope with constantly changing CV's and other "digital crap", which all has nothing to do with their primary desire to simply put their trains on the track and start playing MODEL RAILROAD! [:p]


Hi Lutz.
You are likely to be right in that most Märklin customers like the <u>idea</u> of "plug-and-play", but I am sure a large number of customers have not at all been satisfied with the way it has been implemented. While the CST2 is likely to improve on the reliability and functionality issues, it will not change the underlying problem that mfx, for all practical purposes, is only available for Märklin equipment.

I am sure there are a great many Märklin customers out there, myself included, that also run 2-rail equipment, being H0 or other scales - wouldn’t it then be great to be able to use the same digital system all over? If mfx is such a great system for Märklin 3-rail, it should also be great for 2-rail! Without a control station that supports both systems, the only practical common solution is to use Motorola and DCC.

To claim that most Märklin customers regard CV’s as “digital crap” is quite a far fetched statement – don’t forget that a great many modelers regards the technical aspect as a very interesting part of the hobby.

As for the advantages or disadvantages of proprietary solutions: if the computer business a couple of decades ago can be used as a valid reference, Märklin’s future does not look good at all. Personally I think it would be much wiser to try to bridge the gap between 2-rail and 3-rail, and mfx - DCC rather than trying to lock modelers into using only Märklin equipment.

-Roger
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#162 Posted : 15 August 2008 03:33:43(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Well said Roger, I agree entirely.
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Offline john black  
#163 Posted : 15 August 2008 03:52:40(UTC)
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john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />customers have neither any interest nor desire to fiddle around with self-installation
of 3rd party decoders, having to cope with constantly changing CV's and other "digital crap"

You were surprised to learn how many of your paying customers love just this ... [:p]
(remember - we are the ones with the cash ...)

Underestimating/ignoring others' abilities/wishes is a common (but deadly) mistake of yours [xx(]
And that's why your company is broke, now ... [}:)]
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline nevw  
#164 Posted : 15 August 2008 05:35:51(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Piper
Originally posted by Bigdaddynz

Lutz, you just don't give up do you.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS ABOUT OTHER FORUM MEMBERS TO YOURSELF.
Bud, you do axactly what you say Lutz is doing.

Piper,
I think that in this case you have missed the bus. Lutz makes a Personal attack on anyone who dares to disagree with his posts and also dare to say that Marklin Products may have a defect.

Big daddy was merely asking him to stop making personal attacks.

NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline kbvrod  
#165 Posted : 15 August 2008 05:43:13(UTC)
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kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich


I've told you in my message what I think about such primitive, non-topic related postings like the one from "Big..."; any further comment would be a waste. biggrin



Ray even confirmed what I had stated. There is IMHO also no real need for further discussions as the decision of Märklin has already been made - again to the benefit of the majority of their customers. Smile

Nevertheless, some remarks to some postings.

Per's idea is not bad; but it goes as well into the same direction as Märklin just experienced with ESU - if something goes wrong the blaming will usually be against Märklin.

Märklin clearly stated that Viessmann could use mfx if they pay for it; an IMHO more than fair offer; a company should and will never give away their cream pies to the competition for free.

any further comment would be a waste. was in a dead road right from the beginning, knowing that they would not have a good answer when Märklin comes up with new products which they would not be able to support quickly. Märklin already indicated the support of 255 MM addresses, etc. DCC in 3-rail Märklin environments is really a marginal portion (maybe reverse proportional to the "noise" of these people biggrin).

Most Märklin customers really like the "plug-and-play" idea that was (re-)introduced in the digital model railroad world with Märklin Systems. These customers have neither any interest nor desire to fiddle around with self-installation of 3rd party decoders, having to cope with constantly changing CV's and other "digital crap", which all has nothing to do with their primary desire to simply put their trains on the track and start playing MODEL RAILROAD! [:p]
Auntie,so good for you to -correct- grown men/ladies here.
Quote:
any further comment would be a waste.
Yet, you do.
We shall discuss what we want.By the good grace of Juhan.

Auntie,take your meds,please,...

Dr Dirt(does plug and play mean decoders 2?)
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Offline jeehring  
#166 Posted : 15 August 2008 07:38:29(UTC)
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jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roger E
[br
Hi Lutz.


To claim that most Märklin customers regard CV’s as “digital crap” is quite a far fetched statement – don’t forget that a great many modelers regards the technical aspect as a very interesting part of the hobby.




About technical aspects : may be yes

About CV's settings , I'm not so sure . Depending on which CV .
In DCC world : setting the CV's is something inevitable . It is a constrainte due to a production method . Decoders manufacturer wants his decoder to be installed in many different kinds of models from different brands . He has no other choice .
And customers have no choice . It is the "DCC system" which is forcing the customer to settle many CV's , too many sometimes . And I'm not sure there are so many people who really find it funny . May be they like to settle acceleration , level of sound , even the brightness of the lights and things like that... Very few of them like to settle CV29 bytes by bytes ( If you make DCC you surely know what is CV 29 ), or search for the value of the I factor in load compensation ( BTW about load compensation there are at least 5 or 6 different reachable CV's ...add to the fact that each manufacturer has his "manufacturer unique" = one setting is at different adresses , not all CVs are mandatory...).
Forget the last four years with ESU system and their 3 HO decoder types , remember the Motorola period between 1992 & 2002 . There were such a great work on appropriateness of the decoder to the model . If you have a look on spare parts lists you will see how many decoder references Marklin was using at this time . Not a matter of sound . ( 6090x kits were for digitalization of analog models )
I use to say : DCC world is more pleasant for manufacturers than for us customers . It is only my opinion .

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roger E
[br



Personally I think it would be much wiser to try to bridge the gap between 2-rail and 3-rail, and mfx - DCC rather than trying to lock modelers into using only Märklin equipment.

-Roger


This is only reasonning , only abstraction (IMHO).


Im sorry , what could be the "gap" between 2rails and 3 rails ? We'd better consider the facts and the real nature of the market .
MRR market is divided in two parts : 3rails & 2 rails . This is a fact .
Would you mix two rail & three rails elements in a single layout ?
2rails , 3 rails , whatever you do, motorized models are not compatible .
Analog models are not compatible .
Models are not compatible .
Different tracks need different solutions already .
Even not all electronic modules are compatible
( for example : S88 modules . With 2rails you need current consuming detection . 3rails you don't need it )
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Offline renevoorburg  
#167 Posted : 15 August 2008 09:03:07(UTC)
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renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Would you mix two rail & three rails elements in a single layout ?
2rails , 3 rails , whatever you do, motorized models are not compatible .
Analog models are not compatible .
Models are not compatible .
Different tracks need different solutions already .
Even not all electronic modules are compatible
( for example : S88 modules . With 2rails you need current consuming detection . 3rails you don't need it )


When I go to the local shop to buy a decoder for my trains I get one that does both Motorola and DCC. I happened to buy an ECoS so now I have a few trains running at DCC (because DCC has advantages above Motorola).

I assume many people running Marklin are in the same situation, because their current controller supports it they now do DCC. They probably won't buy a CS when it means going back to Motorola. I won't.

René
https://www.marklin-user....aspx?g=posts&t=8263
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Offline nevw  
#168 Posted : 15 August 2008 09:22:43(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
The one advantage of Motorola or rather MFX is the auto recoginition of Locos.
With that you have a complete set up that does not need changing.
Usually the only changes made are Max speed, Sound Volume, Light brightness or how the lights operate. Fade in fade out. Thats it.

If DCC may have to fiddle a bit.
NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline RayF  
#169 Posted : 15 August 2008 10:26:48(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,840
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think at the end of the day it depends on whether you enjoy more tinkering with the electronics or playing with your trains.

The "tinkerer" loves DCC because of the multitude of adjustments they can make.

The "player" prefers MM or Systems because they can play with their trains straight out of the box.

Although many of us will have a little of both, most will fall roughly into one of the 2 camps.

I, personally, prefer not to have the technology get in the way of my playing with the trains, which is what I feel DCC does more than the Marklin systems (both MM and MFX).

I would like to add that, while I agree with Lutz on many of his opinions, I would like to ask him to moderate his "tone" when commenting on others.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#170 Posted : 15 August 2008 10:40:28(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Well said Ray, I think you have summed things up well. As I have said I exclusively have Marklin, but I can see why others may want to mix and match. While DCC may take a back seat in the Marklin world, I'm sure a device that could handle a complete range of protocols would have a wider appeal in the MRR world.

At the end of the day it is all about choice, and such an approach caters to the 'players' and the 'tinkers'.

However, personally, I will stick to the Marklin approach, even if I ever got some non Marklin locos, I would be converting them to run on Marklin rails with Marklin controllers. If Marklin ever did include DCC support, well that gives me another option, but for now I'll stick with what I have.
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Offline renevoorburg  
#171 Posted : 15 August 2008 11:30:27(UTC)
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renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nevw
<br />The one advantage of Motorola or rather MFX is the auto recoginition of Locos.

If DCC may have to fiddle a bit.


But my local shop (and most other shops I visit) sell decoders that have both Motorola and DCC, not MFX. So I, like many others, run Märklin with DCC (and of course MM).
For this simple reason the CS2 should at least have the possibility to do DCC.

René
https://www.marklin-user....aspx?g=posts&t=8263
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Offline nevw  
#172 Posted : 15 August 2008 11:43:32(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
I agree any new CS should have the functionality for both DCC and Motorola and MFX etc.
Would also make sense to add selectrix. then only one piece of Hardware.

NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline David Dewar  
#173 Posted : 15 August 2008 14:26:19(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
Just signed in to see things still going great guns ( including the posts from loopy LU)
Good post from Roger a well balanced view and Ray also makes several good points.
I think we just accept that M will not go down the DCC road and the other manufacturers will be happy to supply the IB and ECOS etc to those who wish this facility.
This would have been a good time for Uhlenbrock to have come out with a new contoller which if on the market may have sold quite well.
I look forward to seeing what the new CS can do and will buy one preferably with a start set.
I think this has been a good discussion if you ignore loopys remarks regarding David NZ. It certainly shows lots of interest in Ms new CS on the forum but the test will come from the non M enthusiast who just wants a model railway to play with and goes into his/her local toyshop to buy a set ... what they buy will make or break M. At the end of the day what will the local toyshop advise their customer to buy .. M or DCC

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline RayF  
#174 Posted : 15 August 2008 15:08:51(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,840
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
You have a local toyshop that sells Marklinconfusedconfusedconfused

...and therein lies the problem.[V]

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline viragoLDR  
#175 Posted : 15 August 2008 17:13:56(UTC)
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viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
Why would a toy store selling Marklin be a problem? It's actually very common that toy stores have a separate corner for trains. My local shop is an official Marklin dealer, yet he also sells lots of other non-train related stuff. Doesn't make it a bad store. I've been to dozens of stores in Germany where they sell all manner of things together with trains, and yet I still got excellent service there.
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
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Offline renevoorburg  
#176 Posted : 15 August 2008 18:04:50(UTC)
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renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />You have a local toyshop that sells Marklinconfusedconfusedconfused

...and therein lies the problem.[V]



Not quite! When I go to the offial Märklin dealer and ask for a decoder they have none! When I go to the MRR-store at the other end of the street (not a toy store!) and ask for a decoder I get one with MM and DCC. So I end up using DCC, iso buying one with MFX.

So the problem is Märklin! They should be able to deliver me a decoder from their stores but they don't.
If only they opened up the MFX protocol to other decoder manufacturers the situation would have been different.

René
https://www.marklin-user....aspx?g=posts&t=8263
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Offline David Dewar  
#177 Posted : 15 August 2008 19:17:22(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
Ray. There are no toy stores in Scotland selling Marklin but you can get Roco and Fleischmann and of course Hornby. There may be some specialist shops in England (Gaugemaster) who will get you Marklin but most are mail order only with no shop.
Not surprising they sell in Germany lol.
I presume Gibraltar is the same.
This is why DCC is the most popular type of Model Rail but how many have a local toyshop selling Trix?
Parents buying a train set for their kids dont go into a shop saying I must have motorola and mfx (unless maybe in Germany) they just want the dealer to sell them something that will do for Christmas etc. Ms start sets are just the thing but how many toyshops have them (outside Germany)
Rene also has a good point.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Goofy  
#178 Posted : 15 August 2008 19:23:52(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,031
Zimo,Uhlenbrock,Viessmann etc...has two differents software protocol in theirs digitalcomponents.

Why shouldn´t Marklin do it in the same way...?

By using Mfx and DCC in the same CS...!

What about if Marklin this time will do it for customers sake...?! confused

I welcome the new shape of design at CST2,but the question is just that if Marklin will changed the mind at finally by choising Mfx and DCC in the same CST2...

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline RayF  
#179 Posted : 15 August 2008 21:31:26(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,840
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm sorry, I seem to have been misunderstood, but David sort of got my point.

In Gibraltar, and certainly all over the UK, it is impossible to get Marklin trains in a toyshop. The last two shops that did were both in London (Hamleys and Beatties).

My point is that the problem lies (at least in the part of the world I know) with the fact that toyshops no longer consider Marklin trains an attractive range to stock; not even high prestige shops like Hamleys of Regent Street!

I hope you can understand what I meant now.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline David Dewar  
#180 Posted : 15 August 2008 23:01:23(UTC)
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David Dewar

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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
Hi Ray. I think most of us understood what you meant OK. I like the Marklin concept as we all do here but because it is different most owners of toyshops where parents buy their kids train sets dont stock Marklin as they sell a wide range of toys and have no desire to sell something that is different from what they consider to be normal.
Hamleys still have plenty of model trains available and being one of the worlds major toy shops always will do but I expect the other manufacturers will give more support than M will.
Dealers are interested in selling goods that are reliable and are readily available from the manufacturer at the same price everybody else pays.
Ask Lokshop or Kramm how many HAG locos they have in stock and I expect the answer will be none. For the same reason my local model shop which is full of Roco and Faller etc has no Marklin.
Marklin is different and I like it but it does not make them better or ensure success.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline mjrallare  
#181 Posted : 16 August 2008 00:33:16(UTC)
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mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
...
Different to me...
...

confused[xx(]
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Offline Webmaster  
#182 Posted : 16 August 2008 00:50:42(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,162
Dear Lutz, it takes 2 to tango... So please do not comment others yourself... Here we are all as bad/good as any other - entitled to have different views on Märklin stuff.

Views can then be argued, but not the persons behind the view.

To all partners in the tango - there is no need to shout, use nicknames or post comments on persons instead of views on the subject of the discussion...

I am getting quite bored about the fact that there always has to be a "fight" in one and every topic. We all have a good idea about eachother, and we should all take that into account and have tolerance with the views even if they may be biased one way or the other. Goes for everyone!
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Webmaster  
#183 Posted : 16 August 2008 00:57:57(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,162
One problem with the M strategy to keep "their" customers happy is just that - to keep their own customers happy, not getting new ones...

A new management should have the guts to look over the edge of the soup bowl for more possibilites to widen the customer base...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline David Dewar  
#184 Posted : 16 August 2008 01:26:38(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
Good post Juhan (both of them) Marklin must expand and hopefully a new manager will bring in better ideas.
Dont worry about the arguments it only is a minority (the smallest) which must realise the others have views which are valid.
Making a CS for Marklin and one for Trix makes little sense why not make one for everybody to use and encourage more new customers to use Marklin products even if at present they use DCC two rail. Even those running Hornby could buy a CS which I expect would be better than they use at present.
Good discussion though.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline efel  
#185 Posted : 16 August 2008 01:29:27(UTC)
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efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster
<br />Dear Lutz, it takes 2 to tango... So please do not comment others yourself... Here we are all as bad/good as any other - entitled to have different views on Märklin stuff.

Views can then be argued, but not the persons behind the view.

To all partners in the tango - there is no need to shout, use nicknames or post comments on persons instead of views on the subject of the discussion...

I am getting quite bored about the fact that there always has to be a "fight" in one and every topic. We all have a good idea about eachother, and we should all take that into account and have tolerance with the views even if they may be biased one way or the other. Goes for everyone!


Happy to see that you are still alive, webmaster.

I hope this forum will become again the club of gentlemen I found when I discovered it 3 years ago.

Fred
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Offline Roger E  
#186 Posted : 16 August 2008 02:43:26(UTC)
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Roger E


Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: Asker, Norway
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring

..
Im sorry , what could be the "gap" between 2rails and 3 rails ? We'd better consider the facts and the real nature of the market .
MRR market is divided in two parts : 3rails & 2 rails . This is a fact .
Would you mix two rail & three rails elements in a single layout ?
2rails , 3 rails , whatever you do, motorized models are not compatible .
Analog models are not compatible .
Models are not compatible .
Different tracks need different solutions already .
Even not all electronic modules are compatible
( for example : S88 modules . With 2rails you need current consuming detection . 3rails you don't need it )



There are a number of things that can be done to make 2-rail and 3-rail more compatible, for example to design the tracks and switches to handle both systems. A number of people on this forum have already posted descriptions on how to modify K-track, C-track or even 2-rail tracks for dual operation. Personally I have modified all my C-tracks and switches (no 3-way or dual slip) and it works completely reliable for both systems. In the modification process I have examined the C-tracks in great detail, and have found no real technical (or economic) reasons for not making the tracks fully 2-rail compatible from the factory. In fact, the wide turnouts are almost entirely 2-rail compatible already.

And yes, I know that Märklin don't have isolated wheels and thus can't run concurrently on the same track segment as a 2-rail loc. This is however also just a question of design. Converting a 2-rail loc to 3-rail is quite simple and to make the conversion reversible is equally easy. It could be as simple as making a clip-on slider and add some diodes to route the power from the proper wheels and slider. To make the wheels isolated or shorted could even be selectable.

And no, I don't expect Märklin to change any of this. I merely point out the technical issues and that it is quite possible to make 2-rail and 3-rail more compatible - for those that have interest in doing so.

-Roger
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Offline Webmaster  
#187 Posted : 16 August 2008 03:45:31(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,162
Fred, most topics are still "worthy" - but in some "hot" topics that engage all the troops, like this one about a new CS and future Märklin systems/digital - everyone wants to have a view about it, rant about it, or even accuse/defend M product policies - these usually end up in some kind of kindergarten sand throwing battles...

I will be happy the day we are all grown-ups and the gentlemen we think we are... wink


Roger - 2 or 3 rail are compatible electronically, meaning the digital stuff regarding protocols and such. The IB (and EcOS) are excellent examples handling both MM & DCC regardless of track...
And there is no problem using mfx on a 2-rail layout, provided you use eg LokPilot mfx in your 2-rail DC locos...

So the simple solution is really to design the wiring (having insulated wheels) properly and have a clip-on slider as you suggest, which in worst case would have switch to select slider + shorted wheels (Märklin) or non-shorted wheels and slider disabled (Trix). Then run DCC, MM, mfx, Selectrix or whatever decoder protocol you prefer in the MTC-socket that of course is standard in the loco...

I wonder which manufacturer will patent this simple but clever idea first... wink
(And supply a slider in the box, even if it is the "Trix" brand...)
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline kbvrod  
#188 Posted : 16 August 2008 06:20:10(UTC)
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kbvrod

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Location: Beverly, MA
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Offline jeehring  
#189 Posted : 16 August 2008 08:02:45(UTC)
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jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Webmaster
<br />Fred, most topics are still "worthy" - but in some "hot" topics that engage all the troops, like this one about a new CS and future Märklin systems/digital - everyone wants to have a view about it, rant about it, or even accuse/defend M product policies - these usually end up in some kind of kindergarten sand throwing battles...

I will be happy the day we are all grown-ups and the gentlemen we think we are... wink


[size=2]Here on this thread , I believe there are also two other kinds of contributions :
- the one who is thinking as a customer or user .
- The one who is thinking as a "virtual manager of a manufacture (Marklin)" having plans about the future of the company , how to manage it , etc...etc...
Untill now , I'm trying to present my point of view as a customer/player who buy trains for playing .( as a 3 rails user I have no interest in having DCC or several protocoles inside my station as long as Marklin is proposing me something efficient - which was the case untill 2003 )


Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster
<br />
So the simple solution is really to design the wiring (having insulated wheels) properly and have a clip-on slider as you suggest, which in worst case would have switch to select slider + shorted wheels (Märklin) or non-shorted wheels and slider disabled (Trix). Then run DCC, MM, mfx, Selectrix or whatever decoder protocol you prefer in the MTC-socket that of course is standard in the loco...

I wonder which manufacturer will patent this simple but clever idea first... wink
(And supply a slider in the box, even if it is the "Trix" brand...)

___________________________________________________________________

Some Marklin models have insulated wheels already . Like you , I have been imagining such arrangement , so I'm quite sure Marklin already had an idea about it ,but
- if using manual switch that involves opening the model , which is not a mark of advance & not very "plug&play"
- If with electronic switch , that involves considering another matter : factory installed decoders vs buy it yourself decoder . Look what has been happening on DCC market untill now ( buy your decoder as a spare part).

I would try to say something else : standardization of process is THE dream of any management on earth , including Marklin management Smile.They already thought about it , many times , in many directions ( They even had a deep reflection on the merging of Trix & Marklin together already . Merging Trix into Marklin = one brand for two rails and three rails etc..etc..)
I must say something : each time Marklin has tried to get closer to the standards of the rest of MRR world it has been a failure in terms of sales . Also each time they have tried to share common standards , it's never been successful .
Here are two examples :
- In the 80's , as they watch all manufacturers producing more & more plastic , Marklin decided to imitate them . You know the results : it has been a disaster , customers run along , Marklin was close to disappear .
- Recently : some people were complaining about quality problems . 99% of those problems were...electronics problems . It is a " DCC market" Company who was in charge of digital concepts , bringing different concepts , causing breakdown in Marklin digital .This company already had experience on DCC market ,the brand image of Marklin started to become somewhat cloudy .

Many manufactureres would like to be in place of Marklin , producing its own system and controlling its own market . Marklin still has a special place in MRR world. . With a strong brand image .
Most of MRR enhusiast critisizing Marklin about its differences usually are not "three rails enthusiasts" ...
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Offline Maxi  
#190 Posted : 16 August 2008 16:30:38(UTC)
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Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Lots of talk either way on this new CS which is expected to be released sometime down the road. Once this actually happens, my only hope and expectation over the current CS is that the time it takes to wait for the CS to be ready for use from the time it is powered up would be a lot short than what we are currently experiencing from both the ECOS and the current CS.

In my view this is where the 6021 and Intellibox type controllers have a advantage, especially for those who are not planning on controlling thier layout with a computer program.

As it stands now the current CS takes longer to startup than my dual Athlon MP computer which is 6 years old. To me this length of time to wait for a dedicated controller to start up is not acceptable.

regards
Matthew
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Offline David Dewar  
#191 Posted : 16 August 2008 22:10:08(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
I think you are correct Juhan as can be seen here on the forum. We have some new members but not many with most having played with M for many years. The Marklin culture is just not surviving as can be seen over the past few years by almost going bust and now running at a loss. They need new ideas and a different outlook but with a new manager coming in maybe this will happen. we can only hope.

Juhan can Flash have the rights to produce the clip on slider before Per jumps in. Talking of Per where is He ?

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Webmaster  
#192 Posted : 17 August 2008 00:20:20(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,162
Matthew, seems like you are just as annoyed as I am about startup time of the current CS...

Roland, of course we all know best... In our own minds... Also how to run a company even if we have never done it... biggrin


And off-topic on a lighter note:
David, the new slider is under official marklin-users.net licensing - if Flash wants to produce these is a license fee to pay first. We do not want to have cheap copies imported by the Purellum Pacific Imports or such...

However, if the copies are well made and licensed it is ok also for PPI to produce cost-efficiently... We have no scruples, those who can pay the license fee (which is rather extensive) can produce freely. However, all production supervision trips for me must be provided and paid for by the licensee - also for destinations not related to mrr item production, like Rhine Valley, French wine districts, some certain Scottish isles, and other destinations of interest (including cities & sights) all over the world where production of items occurs...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline David Dewar  
#193 Posted : 17 August 2008 01:03:31(UTC)
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David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,347
Location: Scotland
When you get to my age the start up time for the CS seems fastbiggrin

David

PS when Flash heard he had to pay to produce the new slider clip he fainted and only several glasses of the water of life could bring him round.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline clapcott  
#194 Posted : 17 August 2008 01:35:33(UTC)
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clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,436
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Just a thought!

I see in the 4/2008 club news, a reference to a "Marklin Insider roundtable in Spain". It is a little unclear if this is being run/facilitated by Marklin but the fact that it is mentionind in the magazine gives it some credence.

Anyway, I was wondering if Marklin actually did any customer surveys to solicit what is desired from a new item by the user community. And then gather beta feedback during the prototyping phase.

Does anyone have experience with these roundtables? Does Marklin get actively involved and/or provide any feedback on issues raised ?

I do appreciate that the actual information discussed/disclosed would be under an NDA but do these processes exist outside of Marklin walls?
Peter
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Offline mbarreto  
#195 Posted : 17 August 2008 02:12:37(UTC)
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mbarreto

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Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
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I don´t know if the other users who wish to have DCC, MM and MFX on the same CS think like me. My need for DCC is not t o run 2 rail layouts with non-Marklin products, but instead is to run some non-Marklin 3 rail loks that have MM and DCC decoders. (I have about 10% of these loks).
One can argue that they can be run with 2 addresses in Marklin Motorola format, and that is true! But this solution has some disadvantages:
1- waste the limited number of MM addresses available (although now is better with Marklin supporting 255 addresses)
2- lack of control of more than 8 functions (plus f0), wich can be controlled with DCC.
3- In case i visit a friend that has 2 rail/DCC and want to show him or test with him in hos layout my Central Station, if it does not support DCC i just can not do this.

I hope Marklin have the same point of view.
I have seen people changing from Marklin 3 rail to Trix 2 rail and other people changing from 2 rail non-marklin to 3 rail Marklin and none of them has changed because of the digital system. (This match is now in 2-2 and the latest changes have been from 2 rail to 3 rail).
I think that it is not the most important thing in the world CS2 support DCC, but is a whish of many Marklin customers: why not give them that easy feature?
There are many people in this hobby for the most various reasons, one of them is without doubt technical interest. I think for all these people DCC counts a bit, at least for curiosity.

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Maxi  
#196 Posted : 17 August 2008 02:42:44(UTC)
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Maxi


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Location: Wawa, Ontario
On other thing to keep in mind is that the more protocols that are placed on the track at the same time the greater the possibility of creating a support nightmare. But so far it seems that MM, DCC, and a few other protocols appear to work together so lets hope that the option is available. Even if the non Marklin protocols are turned off by default and the user must activate them if desired would be ok with me.
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Offline Webmaster  
#197 Posted : 17 August 2008 04:03:30(UTC)
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Webmaster


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Actually, the IB & EcOS "stretch" the MM & DCC protocols a bit so they can work together.

The downside of many protocols on the track is also that data traffic increases and slows command/response times for each individual item on the track...

I remember seeing Rutger Friberg doing a demonstration of the initial IB, together with an Arnold "Control 80f clone" in Gothenburg together with Lars a long time ago - and let's just say that I was unimpressed by this early IB regarding response time in mixed DCC/MM traffic... It took more than 1-2 full seconds before the lights were turned on/off for a loco on the track...

However, it was a very early IB demonstration and their firmware has improved a lot since then...

I suppose that is why M does not respond to problems where the IB is involved, foreign controller that is not supported. As Maxi says, a support nightmare would be the fact if you also involve protocols that are not "in-house".

Off-topic:
Kind of reminds me of my time at IBM - Not SNA, meaning anything except 3270 & 5250 synchronous transport protocols = not supported... I even lived with the toughy transitions from the "in-house" ones to see even IBM finally accept TCP/IP as a usable protocol, albeit with the uttermost scepticism since it was not "in-house"... The early implementations for eg AS/400 were not very good, but since they also introduced the RS/6000 (AIX OS = Unix OS machine) in parallell to the AS/400 it got better after a while... And now TCP/IP is fully supported by IBM...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline renevoorburg  
#198 Posted : 17 August 2008 09:24:48(UTC)
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renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Off-topic:
Kind of reminds me of my time at IBM - Not SNA, meaning anything except 3270 & 5250 synchronous transport protocols = not supported... I even lived with the toughy transitions from the "in-house" ones to see even IBM finally accept TCP/IP as a usable protocol, albeit with the uttermost scepticism since it was not "in-house"... The early implementations for eg AS/400 were not very good, but since they also introduced the RS/6000 (AIX OS = Unix OS machine) in parallell to the AS/400 it got better after a while... And now TCP/IP is fully supported by IBM...


No off topic at all, but a great comparison! Like is completely stupid to ignore the TCP/IP standard since it is not 'in house', it is ridicilous to ignore the standard for decoders, DCC.

They don't have to turn it on by default, but at least give advanced users the possibility to enable it.

René - concerned Märklin is not learning, not listening - [V]
https://www.marklin-user....aspx?g=posts&t=8263
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Offline Goofy  
#199 Posted : 17 August 2008 11:34:05(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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I wonder if Marklin did testefied byself an trying with two softwares(MM,Mfx and DCC)in the CS...?

We have to wait and see,to make even sure that CST2 will been arrived outside in the market.

I suggest that we shall stopped here now and not writing anymore time about CST2,because it´s has become a little to much fantasy now by writing about CST2. wink

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline grr_1954  
#200 Posted : 17 August 2008 13:06:43(UTC)
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grr_1954


Joined: 16/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: San Fernando, Cadiz
Hello,

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Renevoorburg says:
It is ridicilous to ignore the standard for decoders, DCC.


Who say what's the standard? PC is the standard? Windows is standard? Driving on the right side is standard?
For my the standard in Märklin is Motorola, and mfx is fully compatible with it. For my is enough.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Goofy says:
I suggest that we shall stopped here now and not writing anymore time about CST2,because it´s has become a little to much fantasy now by writing about CST2.


O.K. In this moment all about CS2 are only speculations. Is time to wait, meanwhile we can use the little (and inexpensive) MS to just control our mfx loks.

Best regards,
Gerardo Rivero,
San Fernando, Cádiz, Spain.
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