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Offline kiwiAlan  
#301 Posted : 25 November 2018 17:23:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 3,996
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced,


Do you have any hard evidence for this ?

Offline Mark_1602  
#302 Posted : 25 November 2018 21:58:31(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced,


Do you have any hard evidence for this ?



I've read that more than once, though I can't recall where. Might have been Stummis Forum, a press report or even a Märklin video. If I find it again, I'll tell you or post it here. IMO the numerous warranty cases of Märklin products made there qualify as hard evidence. Actually, that problem intensified after the factory in Györ was extended. Ironically, moving part of the production from China to Hungary after the insolvency did not improve the quality of Märklin products. Over 10 per cent of items I've bought since 2013 were warranty cases. Some people who work there don't seem to worry about quality or customers. If they were paid to produce the best quality, neither me nor other customers would have had those cases.

Best regards,
Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline TEEWolf  
#303 Posted : 26 November 2018 01:48:38(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,239
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post


This is exactly why Marklin can only benefit from being transparent. At the moment, I can only think they have something to hide.


Yes, they do. There's been no real quality control since about 2005. Watch the Märklin videos that show the production in Györ. In the last production step, workers appear to check the products they've made themselves. Märklin used to employ people who checked other workers' finished products, but you never see people like that on Märklin TV, do you? There seems to be a quality management system for newly-designed locos in Göppingen, especially for club models, but that's all I've seen in Märklin videos.

Best regards,

Mark

P.S. In a MRR shop near Göppingen, I once had a conversation with a woman who had worked for Märklin as a controller (Prüfer) until 2005. A few hundred workers were sacked at the factory in Göppingen between 2003 and and 2005, as I know from press reports. That was the end of the legendary Märklin quality control. In 2009, Mr Pluta announced that quality control had been reintroduced, thus acknowledging that there hadn't been any for some years, but now it's called quality management and it's not the same as it used to be. What they have now might work reasonably well in Göppingen, but the vast majority of their products aren't made there. In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced, so quantity is more important than quality, hence the numerous warranty cases. Can Märklin afford to be transparent??


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt and survived only because a lot of dealers (combined in the MHI organization) spent plenty of fresh money into a bankrupt company.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline H0  
#304 Posted : 26 November 2018 08:28:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before.
Much of the personnel is the same.
The folks on the top floor who try to increase the profitability have changed a few times since 2000. One of the CEOs was around long before 2013 and he ruined his credibility long ago.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#305 Posted : 26 November 2018 10:18:51(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline TEEWolf  
#306 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:07:53(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,239
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John


Aha, but about which product you are writing?

By the way, Märklin is an independent and privately own company running its own several factories.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#307 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:17:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Aha, but about which product you are writing?
LOL

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline TEEWolf  
#308 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:21:47(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,239
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Much of the personnel is the same.
The folks on the top floor who try to increase the profitability have changed a few times since 2000. One of the CEOs was around long before 2013 and he ruined his credibility long ago.


What has this to do with the Sieber family? Yourself are writing "... long before ...". This is the point. The only connection, I see, they have accepted a 5 years period for not discharging any employees. This 5 years shall be over soon or are already over. You cannot compare "... long before ..." with today.

My concern is more, Sieber jr. is leaving more or less Märklin and is going back into his fathers company.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#309 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:31:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
What has this to do with the Sieber family?
One new face in the company, but also many old faces.
As far as I can tell no Märklin CEO was as open about Chinese production as Stephan Löbich. The hazy shade of Glasnost ended when the Siebers took over.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#310 Posted : 27 November 2018 02:06:30(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John


Aha, but about which product you are writing?

By the way, Märklin is an independent and privately own company running its own several factories.


You are a member of this group and you don't know who the person is I'm writing about. shame on you, it is our good and reliable Webmaster Mr. Juhan and his beloved cat "Cleo", officially made "Inspector General" many years ago.
The product is naturally about the "marklin-user.net" carriage

As my father would have said: stay in the corner for 1/2 hour facing the wall

An apology is required. BigGrin

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Mark_1602  
#311 Posted : 27 November 2018 15:37:53(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt ...


I don't mind the new owners personally. Actually, I'm glad that Märklin will still be around in future thanks to their investment, but it's an undeniable fact that the quality of Märklin products that come out of its own factory in Hungary is erratic at best. Customers who make a purchase need to be lucky to get a flawless product. In case you doubt that, I can open a new thread here to document my warranty cases, as I think I still have the relevant documents from the Märklin customer service. Just to give you an example from the last two years, I bought 9 container cars plus one MHI set of five container cars (47689). Out of the nine single cars, I had to send three (!!) back to Göppingen to get them replaced. In the MHI car set, two wheel sets were defect. I think that's not acceptable. To give credit to Märklin's friendly repair service, I'd like to stress that they have sent me two new wheel sets as well as a flawless Evergreen container (47065) car so far. The two remaining ones (47048) will be replaced as well, as I only returned them a short time ago.

I don't mind the people who work in Märklin's headquarters, but my issue is with the products, especially those that are made in Hungary. I've also had warranty cases with Chinese-made Märklin products, such as two new DSB Nohabs in 2015, but not as many.
In the last two days, I watched three Märklin videos about its Hungarian factory. The first video was made in 2012, the last one in 2018, but some untrue statements that are made in each of these videos are absolutely identical. Example: "In Györ, the quality management system is the same as in Göppingen, quality is as good as 'made in Germany', made in China is less good, etc." None of this is true.

My warranty cases started around 2012, when the first new extension in Györ was opened, and there's no end in sight. It's not only the new owners' fault, but probably mostly due to the fact that many new and inexperienced workers were hired there in the last six years. In addition, 50 experienced workers left the Märklin factory in Györ when Audi opened a new plant there (according to German press reports). Märklin's assembly workers in Györ are only paid about 500 euros a month as far as I know, so I don't think they get paid to produce the best quality. Mr Sieber has said in an interview that producing MRR items in Hungary is cheaper than in China. This suggests that the focus must be on quantity and profitability, not on quality. The warranty cases that so many Märklin customers have experienced in recent years prove that IMO. I don't think that there have been many improvements in product quality since 2009, but Märklin's financial situation is definitely better now.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#312 Posted : 30 November 2018 04:22:11(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,239
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt ...


I don't mind the new owners personally. Actually, I'm glad that Märklin will still be around in future thanks to their investment, but it's an undeniable fact that the quality of Märklin products that come out of its own factory in Hungary is erratic at best. Customers who make a purchase need to be lucky to get a flawless product. In case you doubt that, I can open a new thread here to document my warranty cases, as I think I still have the relevant documents from the Märklin customer service. Just to give you an example from the last two years, I bought 9 container cars plus one MHI set of five container cars (47689). Out of the nine single cars, I had to send three (!!) back to Göppingen to get them replaced. In the MHI car set, two wheel sets were defect. I think that's not acceptable. To give credit to Märklin's friendly repair service, I'd like to stress that they have sent me two new wheel sets as well as a flawless Evergreen container (47065) car so far. The two remaining ones (47048) will be replaced as well, as I only returned them a short time ago.

I don't mind the people who work in Märklin's headquarters, but my issue is with the products, especially those that are made in Hungary. I've also had warranty cases with Chinese-made Märklin products, such as two new DSB Nohabs in 2015, but not as many.
In the last two days, I watched three Märklin videos about its Hungarian factory. The first video was made in 2012, the last one in 2018, but some untrue statements that are made in each of these videos are absolutely identical. Example: "In Györ, the quality management system is the same as in Göppingen, quality is as good as 'made in Germany', made in China is less good, etc." None of this is true.

My warranty cases started around 2012, when the first new extension in Györ was opened, and there's no end in sight. It's not only the new owners' fault, but probably mostly due to the fact that many new and inexperienced workers were hired there in the last six years. In addition, 50 experienced workers left the Märklin factory in Györ when Audi opened a new plant there (according to German press reports). Märklin's assembly workers in Györ are only paid about 500 euros a month as far as I know, so I don't think they get paid to produce the best quality. Mr Sieber has said in an interview that producing MRR items in Hungary is cheaper than in China. This suggests that the focus must be on quantity and profitability, not on quality. The warranty cases that so many Märklin customers have experienced in recent years prove that IMO. I don't think that there have been many improvements in product quality since 2009, but Märklin's financial situation is definitely better now.

Best regards,

Mark



Hello Mark,

of course we have to talk about the quality from Märklin. No doubt. I also have articles bought this year and sent back to the dealer and he forwarded it to Märklin, because of bad quality. I agree that here in Germany I do not have to pay so expensive freight charges as sometimes is written about.

But I very often have the feeling in this fourm, it is written about a quality in the year 2000, 2009 or whatever time before the year 2013. But I cannot blame the Siebers for this quality. And the poor quality in the years before 2013 have had its effect. Märklin was bankrupt.

But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?

Regards

Wolfgang
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline H0  
#313 Posted : 30 November 2018 08:26:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I agree that here in Germany I do not have to pay so expensive freight charges as sometimes is written about.
You should know that you can make the dealer pay for the return postage if you send a defective item back to the dealer.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?
Fair enough.
As I see it Mark mentioned quality issues he experienced during the Sieber era.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Online dickinsonj  
#314 Posted : 01 December 2018 00:58:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 915
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Fair enough.
As I see it Mark mentioned quality issues he experienced during the Sieber era.


Yes, and there have definitely been quality issues under their ownership, especially early on with things from Hungary. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Märklin's quality is now magically perfect and that there are never any problems.

What I do suggest is that based on only my personal purchases I have seen far fewer problems in the last 18-24 months and that Märklin quality seem to be heading in the right direction. It may never get back to what many of us remember because those old analog locos are so simple and sturdy that they never break.

Then we all started to whine about why the models didn't have better detailing and more features. So that has all improved but between embedded electronics, non-serviceable motors and more fine detail the new models will never be as reliable as the analog models were - no possible way.

Be careful what you wish for. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#315 Posted : 02 December 2018 17:27:16(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


But I very often have the feeling in this fourm, it is written about a quality in the year 2000, 2009 or whatever time before the year 2013. But I cannot blame the Siebers for this quality. And the poor quality in the years before 2013 have had its effect. Märklin was bankrupt.

But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?

Regards

Wolfgang


Hi,

The items I specifically mentioned as examples above (39670 - broken screw thread that made it impossible to fasten the top to the chassis, 39674 - bad motor and/or decoder) as well as the MHI container car set, the DB era IV container cars, and the era VI container cars) were all produced between 2015 and 2017. The 39674 was replaced by my Märklin dealer, but in the case of the 39670, I cancelled the sale and got my money back.

Actually, the only new loco I've ordered in the last two years (39675, DSB Nohab era IV) and which I received a few months ago is perfect. I don't know where it was made. All I can say for sure is that the first newly designed Nohab locos (e.g. 39670, 39674) were made in China back in 2015. The boxes and printing codes differed from those of Märklin products made in Europe. Meanwhile, Märklin has changed the box design, so I can't tell if the 39675 was made in China or Hungary. Märklin still has quite a lot of products made in China, so I think there's no real need to open a new thread.

Criticism is allowed in this forum, as long as it's based on facts, and IMO it won't stop until the high number of Märklin warranty cases is reduced significantly. According to what I've read, warranty cases are rare for Piko products. Why can't Märklin do the same?

Check out the latest financial report about Märklin on www.bundesanzeiger.de (2016/2017). It outlines that Märklin's financial situation is really healthy, but also mentions that one of the company's top priorities is "cutting costs". Those are Märklin's own words.

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by user 02 December 2018 21:03:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline Agneaux  
#316 Posted : 19 December 2018 05:39:46(UTC)
Agneaux

Australia   
Joined: 16/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 3
Hello,
I am surprised that this issue continues.

It is somewhat apparent to me that mrr makers outsource production to facilities in China. Possibly one or more Chinese companies may specialise in this. I don't really know.

What i do know is that there is no way that marklin would have invested in tooling for a model like the S2/6. The volumes would never equate to the amortisation of the cost.

Therefore, the obvious course would be to use the company that produces the Brawa models. Model sharing is not unknown in the mrr world.

We see the same thing this year with the shared Rhinegold models.

As far as I can tell, marklin is still distributed in the US by Walthers and this is likely to be the point where the made in china sticker is applied.

Let's not forget; as children most of us saw Made in West Germany as the hallmark of quality and Made in Japan as the mark of rubbish.

Neither of those points apply today.
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Offline Goofy  
#317 Posted : 19 December 2018 09:19:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,787
When i was kid all Märklin trains did just only produced in Göppingen at western Germany.
DCC means Digital Command Control.
Tillig Elite code 83 two rail


Offline Drongo  
#318 Posted : 20 December 2018 12:57:05(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 989
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: veloboldie Go to Quoted Post
Plugs and sockets are made in China and most likely very small accessories. Locomotives, cars etc are made either in Germany or Hungry.
Official links that support your opinion?
How about third-party products sold by Märklin?




"As far as the production of our products is concerned, there are generally three production options, namely our plant in Göppingen, our plant in Hungary or external cooperation partners. All three options guarantee that the products bear the hallmark of our development and construction in Göppingen, in essence the basic requirements are controlled from Göppingen, so that the quality of our models consistently meets high standards. In addition to the quality of the product, we also ensure a consistently high level of quality when carrying out production across all locations. In addition, most models are manufactured in a company network. This means that individual components are manufactured at different locations and therefore the product can not always be assigned to a location.
In this respect, we have decided not to make any statement regarding the production location of individual products, with one exception: the Märklin insider product is always produced in Göppingen, and this is also communicated in this way.
The fact that we do not make any statements about the individual production locations is partly due to the fact that we want to prevent one of our production sites from being discredited, because, as already mentioned, the Märklin philosophy for high quality is the same everywhere."

Direct from the Ministry of Propaganda. In other words BS


Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline RayF  
#319 Posted : 20 December 2018 14:25:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,180
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
It's a shame we've all become so cynical.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline David Dewar  
#320 Posted : 20 December 2018 15:31:20(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,500
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
It's a shame we've all become so cynical.



Not all of us Ray. Most on here are Marklin enthusiasts and support the company and their products.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline twmarklinfan  
#321 Posted : 20 December 2018 15:53:01(UTC)
twmarklinfan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 155
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, United Kingdom
I am with you David. I have been and remain an avid Marklin fan since the early 60’s. The pleasure I derive from collecting and running these beautiful models is immense. For me it’s the place to forget about the rest of the world and enjoy the moment.
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Offline H0  
#322 Posted : 20 December 2018 18:24:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
"[...] The fact that we do not make any statements about the individual production locations is partly due to the fact that we want to prevent one of our production sites from being discredited, because, as already mentioned, the Märklin philosophy for high quality is the same everywhere."
Same level of quality everywhere. So nice.

Two or three years ago they still printed "Made in China" or "Made in E. U." onto the Startup boxes. Maybe they didn't like the reaction and now make no more statements about the countries of origin.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline 60904  
#323 Posted : 24 December 2018 12:04:15(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
Well, they may produce their products where they think it is best, but they should keep in mind that the quality must be at the same high level. In the past, some 40 years ago there was no difference in technical standard. No difference concerning the reliability of motors whether you bought a 3029 or a 3015. Nowadays it is completely different. The so called Hobby Line (Start Up) is equipped with the lowest quality of motors you can think of. The best new item for 2019 could be the announcement of fitting all the locos with the best motor on the market, Maxon or Faulhaber. The so called less expensive models are reaching 300,-€.

You may now throw stones on me.
Greetings
Martin
Offline Mark_1602  
#324 Posted : 24 December 2018 14:42:18(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post
In the past, some 40 years ago there was no difference in technical standard. No difference concerning the reliability of motors whether you bought a 3029 or a 3015.


Hi Martin,

Well, Märklin used to have different types of motors 40 or 50 years ago. The small flat collector motor (SFCM) in cheap locos such as 3029, 3000, but also 3035, 3036 etc was reliable, but definitely less good than the large flat collector motor (LFCM) used in most bigger locos, such as 3045-48, 3063-68, 3089, 3094, 3022, etc. The LFCM was more powerful and much better at low speeds. I have disassembled and cleaned the motors and gearboxes of many Nohab locos and found out that they can crawl at very low speeds after that. If I clean an old analogue 3035 with a SFCM, it still won't run very slowly. The 3015 has an altogether different type of centrally located worm gear motor that drives six axles. In the first half of the 1970s, Märklin introduced the three-pole drum collector motor and claimed it was better than the older LFCM, but it wasn't: a loco with a DCM simply needs a higher tension to start moving than one with a LFCM. The DCM was introduced because it was smaller than the LFCM, so it allowed Märklin to make locos such as the BR 03. Some collectors think that Märklin started skimping on quality in the early 1970s, long before they had anything made in China.

I see your point, of course: all of those old motors worked for years as long as they were properly serviced, but quality and technical standards were not the same for every loco in the past. If Märklin used expensive motors now as they used to up to 2009/2010, they would probably be out of business IMO. The high profit margin achieved during the insolvency years was only possible because of the cheap can motors and so-called cheap 'insolvency decoders'. 50 years ago, Märklin could actually earn money on the locos they sold, whereas now they only make money on the electronic components contained within the loco. Ten or twelve years ago, in the age of ESU decoders and Softdrive Sinus motors, Märklin lost a lot of money. It seems to me that the new DCC/mfx decoders are somewhat better, but I'm not an expert on that. With these decoders, locos run much better in analogue mode, even at very low speeds. There you are, that's an improvement, isn't it? Don't expect too much ...

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by user 24 December 2018 18:46:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline 60904  
#325 Posted : 24 December 2018 19:24:08(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
You are right Mark with what you are trying to explain. I know all about the history of what was built in. But let me say one thing: it doesn't really matter whether you charge your customer 10,-€/$ more or less for a reliable motor. The motors used in 36xxx Traxx models may cost them probably less than 50ct. You and I can buy them for less than 3,€/$. And we don't buy them in high numbers. I am willing to spend money if the quality is at its best. They didn't go bankrupt because of high quality. They went bankrupt because of too many people wanting too much out of that firm. And maybe some bad advisors. But that's a different story.

Anyway I am still looking for a good replacement motor for those so called cheap locos. I know about SB and their offer. That's not what I want, another 80-90,-€ of investment, maybe 20-30,-€. A motor similar to what the Roco people use, just different in size.
Greetings
Martin
Offline TEEWolf  
#326 Posted : 24 December 2018 19:27:18(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,239
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post
Well, they may produce their products where they think it is best, but they should keep in mind that the quality must be at the same high level. In the past, some 40 years ago there was no difference in technical standard. No difference concerning the reliability of motors whether you bought a 3029 or a 3015. Nowadays it is completely different. The so called Hobby Line (Start Up) is equipped with the lowest quality of motors you can think of. The best new item for 2019 could be the announcement of fitting all the locos with the best motor on the market, Maxon or Faulhaber. The so called less expensive models are reaching 300,-€.

You may now throw stones on me.


Not stones - we are living in civilized countries. No, I chuck the finest MRR motors to you. Motors you have not had 40 years ago. So your dreams come through.BigGrin

Merry Christmas

TEEWolf
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline PhillipL  
#327 Posted : 24 December 2018 20:05:28(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 94
The issues being discussed here is not just confined to Marklin trains, it is worldwide manufacturing problem. Quality has taken a noise drive in nearly every industry. We have become a throw away society (if it is getting old or not working correctly, throw it away and buy a new one). Take a look at the number of automobile recalls, problems with home appliances and even prepared food recalls. Repair shops for lawnmowers and small engines have closed up shop as have many electronic repair shops. Until we the customers demand better quality, the manufacturers will keep this up.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#328 Posted : 24 December 2018 22:40:04(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post
But let me say one thing: it doesn't really matter whether you charge your customer 10,-€/$ more or less for a reliable motor.
...
Anyway I am still looking for a good replacement motor for those so called cheap locos. I know about SB and their offer. That's not what I want, another 80-90,-€ of investment, maybe 20-30,-€. A motor similar to what the Roco people use, just different in size.


I agree that a price increase of 10 euros per loco would not deter customers, but AFAIK, manufacturers charge customers a multiple of the cost of each component. So if you added a motor that costs Märklin 10 euros, the loco might cost 50 or even 80 euros more. Roco uses better motors and decoders, but that company is losing money at an alarming rate. How did Märklin achieve a profit margin of 10 per cent during the insolvency (up to 2013)? I suppose they didn't have to service the huge debt before the takeover, and they cut too many corners. Now profitability is below 5 per cent AFAIK; debts have to be paid back, investments have to be made to produce new models, workers want higher salaries, and there are still a lot of warranty cases due to insufficient quality control, so I guess Märklin can only make small improvements and hope that this will be enough to keep the die-hard fans buying.

Best regards,
Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline river6109  
#329 Posted : 25 December 2018 03:32:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
It has been going on for a while "cheap motors from China" , what's wrong with them ? we talk about previous motors like in the 3015 but this is only 1 part of the whole quotation.
all manufacturers have changed their approach what a loco should look like and we have gone to the extreme of "exactly like the prototype"
it may look like the prototype in detail but it lacks the weight, it lacks the amount of rubber tyres but we are paying the price (or who is willing) for this innovation. has anybody had any trouble with the so called cheap motors from China ?
It is absolutely insane to buy a loco for A$ 1000.00 regardless what history the prototype has got behind her belly., good luck to ones who can afford it. I do like the french steam loco but not for this price. there are actually other manufacturers who produce the same or similar loco for much less than that, is it all metal ? I don't know.
how many of you have got a layout big enough to run locos for hours to establish if your loco with a cheap motor from China has got the life span, one does expect.
my concern would be towards: will I get a replacement part in 10 years time ? I've never seen another manufacturer changing motors like you change your underwear, Roco to my knowledge had 1 change to a five pole screwed motor and seems to work flawless.
if we talk about older type Märklin motors (even with a permanent magnet conversion) they're performance and reliability has obviously been above the normal standard needed and it looks to me smaller motors with the help of electronic infusion have the same or a better performance outcome.
I'm no expert to say whether this is true but in due course when my layout's main lines are finished, I will be able to tell if there is anything wrong with these motors and whether they can withstand some load.
Its ok to support a company like "Märklin" but don't expect any favours in return, your interest lies in the appearance and obsession of the hobby and not the final outcome of any particular product, including the price, type of motor, sound, decoder and other gadgets which are or can be an extra cost.

I think it would be fair to say, all heavy steam locos are a bit light, its a successful market campaign but the truth is, locos are getting lighter and lighter so save your hard earned dollar into the money pockets of others without you benefiting from its make up.
I'm also surprised model trains/accessories are never offered with discounts up to 75% or end of year sale, mid year sale, , Christmas sale, Boxing day sale, end of financial year sale and the ones that are offering discounts are no cheaper than the average sale price anyhow, I've never seen so many ads on TV offering sales around Christmas and the New Year. I don't think there is one store in world you hasn't got onto the bandwagen, it also surprises me that people haven't got the message: we are getting ripped off every day.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#330 Posted : 25 December 2018 08:36:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
It has been going on for a while "cheap motors from China" , what's wrong with them?
You get what you pay for.
For just a few cents more Märklin could get good motors from China.

I got the impression that a Piko loco for €100 comes with a better motor than a Märklin loco for €200.

Märklin lost trust in the past. Now they fail to communicate the improvements they have made (if any) and so they do not regain lost trust.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#331 Posted : 25 December 2018 09:30:31(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
It has been going on for a while "cheap motors from China" , what's wrong with them?
You get what you pay for.
For just a few cents more Märklin could get good motors from China.

I got the impression that a Piko loco for €100 comes with a better motor than a Märklin loco for €200.

Märklin lost trust in the past. Now they fail to communicate the improvements they have made (if any) and so they do not regain lost trust.


I may have missed some important issue about cheap motors being made in China, are they breaking down, do they fail or don't last long or is their performance inadequate ?

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#332 Posted : 25 December 2018 09:45:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Märklin made the transition from ESU decoders to home-brew decoders.
And at the same time they made the transition from five-pole skew-wound China motors to three-pole straight-wound China motors. And Märklin home-brew decoders with three-pole straight-wound motors are a PITA.

Cheap three-pole motors require good decoders with excellent load regulation.

And it was a case of "Oops, Märklin did it again": The first generation of C-Sine motors with mfx decoders was a PITA, too. They lost a lot trust with that move (I don't know how much "Made in China" was involved).

In both cases there was no QA on Märklin's side. Or they were well aware of the quality problems, but had dollar signs in the eyes and ignored the technical problems.

There is nothing wrong with "Made in China". You can get good quality from China. You can get bad quality from Europe.

The real problem is: You cannot be sure you get good quality if the box shows the Märklin logo.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Drongo  
#333 Posted : 25 December 2018 10:50:29(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 989
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Märklin made the transition from ESU decoders to home-brew decoders.
And at the same time they made the transition from five-pole skew-wound China motors to three-pole straight-wound China motors. And Märklin home-brew decoders with three-pole straight-wound motors are a PITA.

Cheap three-pole motors require good decoders with excellent load regulation.

And it was a case of "Oops, Märklin did it again": The first generation of C-Sine motors with mfx decoders was a PITA, too. They lost a lot trust with that move (I don't know how much "Made in China" was involved).

In both cases there was no QA on Märklin's side. Or they were well aware of the quality problems, but had dollar signs in the eyes and ignored the technical problems.

There is nothing wrong with "Made in China". You can get good quality from China. You can get bad quality from Europe.

The real problem is: You cannot be sure you get good quality if the box shows the Märklin logo.


I fully agree with you Tom. Sieber bought the Marklin name and paid good money for it. Now they are slowly destroying it's reputation with using cheap inferior components. It's only a matter of time before they realise their error. Let's hope it's before it's too late and no-one wants the Marklin name anymore.

BTW - the joke goes like this. How do you buy a small business ?

Buy a large business, give it to your son to manage and wait .

Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline river6109  
#334 Posted : 25 December 2018 12:51:13(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Märklin = good name, products = good products, followers = excellent, Märklin for sale = good investment, followers = excellent, Märklin previous management = short sighted, new Märklin management = increase profits + cut costs, Märklin production quality = down hill, Märklin parts = cheapest materials available, Märklin profits = up, Märklin for sale again = finds a new buyer, new Märklin management = increase profits + cut costs, the name Märklin will eventually become a commodity name (or already is) and not a customer friendly model train enthusiasts production firm and sadly we, the buyers are the feeders for having another crack at selling Märklin and if they do I would think something drastically has to happen to satisfy Märklin customers., re introduce customer confident not just by words but actually improving product quality, product materials. I don't see behind the scenes improvements in machinery, molds etc. but I think with todays technology, the next step forward is to upgrade the manufacturing of model trains by simplifying wiring and electronic parts.
I think HAG made a leap forward with their lighting system by feeding all the wires (bands) within the roof of electric locos, these days we shouldn't have any more loose wires, manufacturers of model trains have still a long way to go and getting an mechanical engineer with foresight hasn't happen at Märklin for a long time.

Its very well to say sales are up at the front counter but I like to know how much is returned through the back door. and most probably there is no permanent inventory to show what has been returned in the last 5 or 10 years., most probably the moment the product is fixed the inventory is deleted. and if the products is returned again a new inventory is created.

Most probably there is enough scope within the company to change things around and I assume HO is still the main selling item including TRIX which we don't hear a lot about it.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline 60904  
#335 Posted : 25 December 2018 17:23:59(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
The motors just fail, not all of them but too many according to my personal experience. That's the point. If they didn't fail I wouldn't have complaint about the cheap stuff. They fail after a few hours running; less than 10 sometimes. If you are lucky it just the destroyed motor, if you don't realize the failure of the motor it also kills the decoder.

BTW, a company like Roco doesn't go bankrupt by using good motors. As one mentioned before a good motor costs just a few cents more than the present rubbish.
Greetings
Martin
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Online dickinsonj  
#336 Posted : 26 December 2018 02:41:04(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 915
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post
The motors just fail, not all of them but too many according to my personal experience.


Considering the cost of today's Märklin locos I agree that they should have better quality motors Martin. If that means a somewhat higher purchase price I would be fine with that. I don't buy trains to display but to run and the motor is one of the most important components for me. In my personal experience I have seen no strong correlation between reliability and the country of assembly however, with my Chinese made locos having fewer issues than those made in Györ.

On the other hand, I have only had one MRR motor failure in the last 5 years and that was in an ESU V200. It is a beautiful model with perfect finishes and packed with cool features, but the motor stopped working after about 3 hours of use. It appears to have been caused by a stuck brush and it has worked fine since a friend helped me out by turning the commutator. The motor appears to be a very high quality piece and it has replaceable brushes, so it is clearly more advanced than the motors in most current Märklin models, yet it still failed after very little use.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Goofy  
#337 Posted : 26 December 2018 08:34:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,787
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
It has been going on for a while "cheap motors from China" , what's wrong with them?
You get what you pay for.
For just a few cents more Märklin could get good motors from China.

I got the impression that a Piko loco for €100 comes with a better motor than a Märklin loco for €200.

Märklin lost trust in the past. Now they fail to communicate the improvements they have made (if any) and so they do not regain lost trust.


Really??
The cheaper motor do also failure and often more than Märklins.
Three or five pole doesn´t matter but the real question is what kind of quality can Piko or Märklin produce for the customer?

DCC means Digital Command Control.
Tillig Elite code 83 two rail


Offline H0  
#338 Posted : 26 December 2018 08:51:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Three or five pole doesn´t matter but the real question is what kind of quality can Piko or Märklin produce for the customer?
Three-pole matters if the decoder is crap.
A HAG three-pole motor with an ESU decoder works well. Three-pole is not generally bad, but it can expose decoder deficiencies.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline 60904  
#339 Posted : 26 December 2018 10:57:50(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
You are right. 3 or 5 pole is not the questions- it is the quality that matters. I think that you all agree that the motor in these so called cheap locos is of very low quality.
Greetings
Martin
MrB32  
#340 Posted : 26 December 2018 22:38:55(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Here is an Example of a "crapy" 10 cent Chinese motor in a cheap Hornby loco after a nine day endurance run, not necessarily a bad thing. These things have been in use in everything for the last 40 years, they are reliable.



We have 2 issues:
- some confusion due to the Märklin depiction of a wonderland of quality based on the "made in (or near) Germany" seal, the reactions in this thread show exactly why they are doing that, most of us don't consider the "made in China" sticker a sign of quality. Sorry reasonable forum readers, but that's a fact of life, and it will take a further 40 years to change that perception for the majority of people. Add a bit of politics into the mix, and Märklin is navigating its communication machine more or less successfully to avoid negative buyer reaction.

- Perceived quality issues in the current production:
First of all, this forum is littered with buying recommendations, proud presentations of latest purchases, so the quality cannot be as bad as some say. I recently sold a few models built during the insolvency period, and they were all beautifully put together. So it is not possible to associate issues with a given era, manager or location. There are of course production defects from time to time, it is to be expected from any manufacturer. We all know about the lack of Märklin customer service outside of Germany, so many problem will be exacerbated as a matter of fact. Looking past this, we have to admit that we are not the most flexible buyer group either, judging by the amount of rivet counting going on at times. This is not necessarily a bad things, as it keeps Märklin on its toes. But if I have paid a lot of money for an item, and the performance is not to my liking... Is it really a quality issue? Or am I expecting too much? Should I have gone to a shop and see the model for myself to make sure it was fit of the intended purpose instead of clicking the buy it now button on a website? All our layouts are different (length of consist, inclines, power...), and we all have different expectations, some focusing on slow running characteristics, others on pulling power etc etc. So I always take blanket statements with a pinch of salt...

This was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I think that a dedicated post per issue under the "Loco reviews" or "Reviews of rolling stock" will be more valuable to other forum members than a blanket "all motors are rubbish" or "all coaches from Gyor are poorly made".





















Offline Agneaux  
#341 Posted : 27 December 2018 12:21:08(UTC)
Agneaux

Australia   
Joined: 16/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 3
Hello again. A final contribution to this discussion.

The words 'made' and 'produced' don't necessarily equate to the word 'manufactured'. I fully expect that Marklin would follow all mainstream producers in having components made in multiple locations around the world; and potentially assembled in different locations. I don't see this as a limitation, as long as the product delivered to me meets my expectations in regard to quality, relative to the brand identity.

Different countries have vastly differing laws on describing where products have been made. In the case of the S2/6 it seems that only the US customers need to know that the model was "made in China". For that requirement to apply, there will be a legislative Standard that dictates what factors would determine when the "made in China"(or wherever) would be applied to any given product, from Marklin or otherwise.

To highlight the confusion look at Nissan's Juke car model. A first glance its a Japanese brand, made in Japan. However, deeper investigation reveals that:

  • the French Company 'Renault' own a controlling interest in Nissan.

  • the Nissan Juke is fitted with a Renault engine.

  • the Nissan Juke is built (assembled) in the United Kingdom.

  • I don't know where the individual components of the car are made, but every bone in my body suggests that most would come from Chinese factories.

The questions that remain:
What country produces the Nissan Juke?
Does it really matter?

Regardless of you owning a Marklin, Brawa, or any other brand, the S2/6 is a beautiful model and the prototype is a unique player in the development of German rail. I love mine.
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Offline river6109  
#342 Posted : 27 December 2018 12:29:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,472
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I think this is the sticky point:

The words 'made' and 'produced' don't necessarily equate to the word 'manufactured'. I fully expect that Marklin would follow all mainstream producers in having components made in multiple locations around the world; and potentially assembled in different locations. I don't see this as a limitation, as long as the product delivered to me meets my expectations in regard to quality, relative to the brand identity.:

I don't think many manufacturers consider our wishes or what we describe as quality.

most probably in years to come it will no longer be the norm to show which country a product was made or where it came from, it most probably shows the gene number or percentage of it, like us human: our ancestry is for instance: 40 % Dutch, 40 % German, 10 % Jewish and most probably the other 10% goes back to Africa LOL

When you label food products in Australia you must indicate the percentage scale of different food products is in the package, for instance sausages : 80 % water, 10% meat, 5 % sugar, 5 % salt, 2 % sawdust and the rest spices, thickeners and preservatives.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#343 Posted : 27 December 2018 13:07:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,363
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Agneaux Go to Quoted Post
Does it really matter?
Märklin told us that outsourcing was bad because
  • other companies didn't have the same devotion as the Märklin workers
  • quality was bad
  • moulds were damaged or incomplete on return from China


It matters to Märklin to point fingers at China. Yet every new year brings new Märklin products made in China.
Are Märklin playing fair towards China?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Online dickinsonj  
#344 Posted : 27 December 2018 13:45:59(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 915
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post

This was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I think that a dedicated post per issue under the "Loco reviews" or "Reviews of rolling stock" will be more valuable to other forum members than a blanket "all motors are rubbish" or "all coaches from Gyor are poorly made".


I agree with you. I think that individual product reviews are much better than generalizations because all models are different. Components which are fine in some usages are inadequate in others. The good people on this forum do know what works and what doesn't and are happy to share. It has been a great resource for me in the past when deciding on items. Cool

I write software to control hardware devices and at first I was shocked at how inexpensive some of the component parts were in our very expensive custom hardware/software products. The MEs showed me the failure graphs and MTBF data for small electric motors and in some cases the super cheap motors were actually more reliable than the expensive ones. In our designs they basically spec motors more for features and performance than price and it is not a one to one relationship where paying more gets you more reliability.

I agree that there seem to be a lot of people buying Märklin's stuff and then saying that it is crap. If I thought that were the case I doubt that I would still be buying and overall I am satisfied with my purchases. From my perspective product quality has improved even though that has come with some serious price increases. It certainly is not perfect as some of my models can attest, but I see a clear improvement. I understand that some people don't see it that way but what I don't understand is why they keep buying stuff and just waiting to be dissapointed. Be honest - how many people thought of Anders? BigGrin

If you were referring to my reference to products from Göyr it was not my intention to suggest that all of their products are poorly made. Some of my most beautiful locos and coaches were made there. I was just trying to point out why "Made in China" is not necessarily a bad thing. I have had zero issues with my Chinese products and a tolerable but significant number of issues with models made in Györ and Göppingen. Things like incorrectly assembled coaches with non-functional lighting, or CC couple pockets that were the wrong size and caused derailments. My Göppingen made Insider VT 95.9 and trailer are beautiful models but the main PCB failed when it was just a few weeks old and that fried the decoder and it spent that winter and most of the spring in Germany.

IMO people who think that you can blanket assess product quality by country of origin don't understand the realities of modern manufacturing, like them or not. Märklin is doing what it must to survive and offering a wide range of price and quality choices. That dilutes people's perception of the company's quality perhaps but overall it really makes sense. Even at the top end and with "Made in Germany" on the box, quality is what a manufacturer has the integrity and the resources to produce.


Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Online dickinsonj  
#345 Posted : 27 December 2018 13:51:38(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 915
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Agneaux Go to Quoted Post
Does it really matter?
Märklin told us that outsourcing was bad because
  • other companies didn't have the same devotion as the Märklin workers
  • quality was bad
  • moulds were damaged or incomplete on return from China


It matters to Märklin to point fingers at China. Yet every new year brings new Märklin products made in China.
Are Märklin playing fair towards China?

Good point Tom. Märklin's messaging is clearly confused at best or at worst just plain dishonest.

I understand why they use Chinese sourced parts or assemble items there but then why do they go to such effort to disparage products made in China while making some of their most expensive models there?

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
MrB32  
#346 Posted : 27 December 2018 14:47:51(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

If you were referring to my reference to products from Göyr....


I wasn't BigGrin
MrB32  
#347 Posted : 27 December 2018 15:01:04(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Agneaux Go to Quoted Post
Does it really matter?
Märklin told us that outsourcing was bad because
  • other companies didn't have the same devotion as the Märklin workers
  • quality was bad
  • moulds were damaged or incomplete on return from China


It matters to Märklin to point fingers at China. Yet every new year brings new Märklin products made in China.
Are Märklin playing fair towards China?

Good point Tom. Märklin's messaging is clearly confused at best or at worst just plain dishonest.

I understand why they use Chinese sourced parts or assemble items there but then why do they go to such effort to disparage products made in China while making some of their most expensive models there?



Exactly my point in an earlier post.

If you look at other manufacturers (for example Piko, KM1 or Rapido), they simply put the facts out there, with no shame, and embrace their strategy. KM1 sells locos at €14000 a piece, made in Korea.... If Märklin was doing the same, this thread would not exist.
MrB32  
#348 Posted : 27 December 2018 16:16:46(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by: Agneaux Go to Quoted Post
Hello again. A final contribution to this discussion.

The words 'made' and 'produced' don't necessarily equate to the word 'manufactured'. I fully expect that Marklin would follow all mainstream producers in having components made in multiple locations around the world; and potentially assembled in different locations. I don't see this as a limitation, as long as the product delivered to me meets my expectations in regard to quality, relative to the brand identity.

Different countries have vastly differing laws on describing where products have been made. In the case of the S2/6 it seems that only the US customers need to know that the model was "made in China". For that requirement to apply, there will be a legislative Standard that dictates what factors would determine when the "made in China"(or wherever) would be applied to any given product, from Marklin or otherwise.

To highlight the confusion look at Nissan's Juke car model. A first glance its a Japanese brand, made in Japan. However, deeper investigation reveals that:

  • the French Company 'Renault' own a controlling interest in Nissan.

  • the Nissan Juke is fitted with a Renault engine.

  • the Nissan Juke is built (assembled) in the United Kingdom.

  • I don't know where the individual components of the car are made, but every bone in my body suggests that most would come from Chinese factories.

The questions that remain:
What country produces the Nissan Juke?
Does it really matter?

Regardless of you owning a Marklin, Brawa, or any other brand, the S2/6 is a beautiful model and the prototype is a unique player in the development of German rail. I love mine.


The difference with what this thread is about is that Nissan doesn't pretend to make everything in Japan. So there is no risk not to fulfil expectations... Nissan is honest (on that point...) so no one is complaining.

With Märklin, you have a CEO pretending China "was a horrible mistake" and behaving as if China didn't play any role in their production, yet the reality is the opposite. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, Märklin should embrace their current production strategy, support it, and threads like this one would be a thing of the past.

I am sure your 2/6 is a lovely model, so why isn't Märklin embracing its origin?
Offline mrmarklin  
#349 Posted : 27 December 2018 16:44:24(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 749
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Agneaux Go to Quoted Post
Hello again. A final contribution to this discussion.

The words 'made' and 'produced' don't necessarily equate to the word 'manufactured'. I fully expect that Marklin would follow all mainstream producers in having components made in multiple locations around the world; and potentially assembled in different locations. I don't see this as a limitation, as long as the product delivered to me meets my expectations in regard to quality, relative to the brand identity.

Different countries have vastly differing laws on describing where products have been made. In the case of the S2/6 it seems that only the US customers need to know that the model was "made in China". For that requirement to apply, there will be a legislative Standard that dictates what factors would determine when the "made in China"(or wherever) would be applied to any given product, from Marklin or otherwise.

To highlight the confusion look at Nissan's Juke car model. A first glance its a Japanese brand, made in Japan. However, deeper investigation reveals that:

  • the French Company 'Renault' own a controlling interest in Nissan.

  • the Nissan Juke is fitted with a Renault engine.

  • the Nissan Juke is built (assembled) in the United Kingdom.

  • I don't know where the individual components of the car are made, but every bone in my body suggests that most would come from Chinese factories.

The questions that remain:
What country produces the Nissan Juke?
Does it really matter?

Regardless of you owning a Marklin, Brawa, or any other brand, the S2/6 is a beautiful model and the prototype is a unique player in the development of German rail. I love mine.


The difference with what this thread is about is that Nissan doesn't pretend to make everything in Japan. So there is no riskeber not to fulfil expectations... Nissan is honest (on that point...) so no one is complaining.

With Märklin, you have a CEO pretending China "was a horrible mistake" and behaving as if China didn't play any role in their production, yet the reality is the opposite. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, Märklin should embrace their current production strategy, support it, and threads like this one would be a thing of the past.

I am sure your 2/6 is a lovely model, so why isn't Märklin embracing its origin?


I have met Mr Sieber and he does not act as if all is made in Germany. He freely admitted in a conversation a couple of years ago at Toyfair that electronic parts are largely outsourced, and that certain labor intensive Loks are made outside of Germany. This would include the S 2/6, the SNCF 241, and likely the Challenger. Certain other items are sourced there as well.
Just because Märklin does not have to disclose sourcing outside the US doesn’t mean it’s acting like everything is made in Germany IMNSHO.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline Mark_1602  
#350 Posted : 27 December 2018 18:13:19(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 610
Location: Luxembourg
I think that you need good, experienced assembly workers to produce quality. Märklin used to have them in Göppingen and Sonneberg, but a few hundred workers were sacked in the Göppingen plant between 2003 and 2005, including those who carried out quality control. In 2007, the factory in Sonneberg was closed, and 220 people lost their jobs. From 2006, Märklin increased the number of new items and later acquired LGB. I think it's pretty obvious that most Märklin emplyees in Göppingen now work in marketing, administration, or design new items. There can't be a lot of assembly workers left at the M* headquarters.

In Györ, Märklin employs less experienced and badly-paid workers. Some of the good ones have left to find better-paid jobs in the car industry there (according to press reports). In China, quality control is an optional extra that has to be paid for separately. I suppose that Märklin does that for the high-end models and surprise locos, but what about the others? Things are probably made worse by the fact that Märklin has too many brands, gauges, and new items, so workers constantly have to adapt to new models. Would any of you like to do that for 500 euros a month if you lived in Hungary? I've read that there are premiums for Märklin workers, but they are linked to the company's balance sheet or to the number of items produced, not to the quality.

What I want to say is that the excellent workers and controllers that used to produce the legendary Märklin quality in the past are gone for good, and no new owner can or will bring them back. It's true that it doesn't matter so much where goods are manufactured, but what matters is who assembles and checks products before they are shipped. Märklin is banking on the fact that most of us are fans who want to support their favourite company. I'm a Märklin fan too, but I send every warranty case back to Göppingen (or to the dealer). If every customer did that, Märklin would be forced to make significant improvements.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
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