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Offline hxmiesa  
#251 Posted : 24 November 2016 13:10:00(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,662
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
When you support the Chinese economy this allows China to buy more coal from Queensland, Australia (massive amounts of it - and much coking coal necessary for steel production), more iron ore (huge amounts) - predominantly from Western Australia (it is not all from Sweden in Märklin trucks!) , and also more fresh cherries (out of season in China), fresh milk (yes, flown into China!), cheese, wine, wool, abalone, lobster, oysters, smoked salmon, iron ore, zinc and aluminium from Tasmania.ThumpUp


Wow. You sell all your raw materials to a technically more refined country? Like a third-world country. You should make the steel in Australia, and make everybody else pay for it instead.
;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline river6109  
#252 Posted : 24 November 2016 13:54:27(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
When you support the Chinese economy this allows China to buy more coal from Queensland, Australia (massive amounts of it - and much coking coal necessary for steel production), more iron ore (huge amounts) - predominantly from Western Australia (it is not all from Sweden in Märklin trucks!) , and also more fresh cherries (out of season in China), fresh milk (yes, flown into China!), cheese, wine, wool, abalone, lobster, oysters, smoked salmon, iron ore, zinc and aluminium from Tasmania.ThumpUp


Wow. You sell all your raw materials to a technically more refined country? Like a third-world country. You should make the steel in Australia, and make everybody else pay for it instead.
;-)


making steel in Australia is un-Australian, we keep it simple by making a quick buck, which we (the public) don't benefit from.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline dickinsonj  
#253 Posted : 25 November 2016 01:46:11(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,078
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post


making steel in Australia is un-Australian, we keep it simple by making a quick buck, which we (the public) don't benefit from.

John


Wow - that sounds just like the US - I guess we British expats really do have a lot in common!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline hrbla  
#254 Posted : 19 November 2018 07:19:47(UTC)
hrbla

United States   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Arcadia, California
As having a mixed of “made of-“ on my new Marklin products, I decide to call a local BBB in regards to this very regulation. As informed by a BBB agent, any foreign imported products to US is required to identify the country of manufactured on its packaging, such as wine from France, pastry from Japan, or timepieces from Swiss. Any violation will be reviewed and subjected to applicable penalty based on product category. In this case, it is clear that the Marklin trains that having “made in China” on its packaging are made in China with no doubt. Maybe Marklin should pass on the savings to its loyal customers like us.
Offline river6109  
#255 Posted : 19 November 2018 10:56:55(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: hrbla Go to Quoted Post
As having a mixed of “made of-“ on my new Marklin products, I decide to call a local BBB in regards to this very regulation. As informed by a BBB agent, any foreign imported products to US is required to identify the country of manufactured on its packaging, such as wine from France, pastry from Japan, or timepieces from Swiss. Any violation will be reviewed and subjected to applicable penalty based on product category. In this case, it is clear that the Marklin trains that having “made in China” on its packaging are made in China with no doubt. Maybe Marklin should pass on the savings to its loyal customers like us.


I like to see that = passing on the savings to loyal customers., sales are good lets increase the prices., sales are bad lets go into liquidation and some one will rescue us.

businesses are build on profits and profits alone and to find fools like us isn't very hard to keep, for instance smokers in Australia get whacked with a huge tax but it doesn't stop them smoking, drinkers get also whacked with a hefty tax but this doesn't stop drinkers drinking alcohol. cars are no longer advertised how they perform, its all about blue tooth and a global positioning system (GPS), or you get 4 wheel drive utes which compete with a mountain goat, or going through meter deep streams or just driving around in a paddock., it seem this is what drivers makes them happy.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline GlennM  
#256 Posted : 19 November 2018 11:36:22(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,751
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: hrbla Go to Quoted Post
As having a mixed of “made of-“ on my new Marklin products, I decide to call a local BBB in regards to this very regulation. As informed by a BBB agent, any foreign imported products to US is required to identify the country of manufactured on its packaging, such as wine from France, pastry from Japan, or timepieces from Swiss. Any violation will be reviewed and subjected to applicable penalty based on product category. In this case, it is clear that the Marklin trains that having “made in China” on its packaging are made in China with no doubt. Maybe Marklin should pass on the savings to its loyal customers like us.


I do not understand why you would want to report Marklin to your local BBB Confused Confused Confused

In light of the sheer number of components made in China I would think it was quite hard to buy a complex item with electronics that does not have at least one component inside made in China, this is now a fact of life

The desire to manufacture in China is driven by four factors; customers demanding cheap goods, companies desire to make profits, lack of regulation (health and safety / employment / etc) and environmental (ie dirty polluting industries not in our backyard). Often companies 'greed' pushes manufacturing to China, but do not underestimate the effects of consumer power demanding every cheaper goods (and a general unwillingness to pay for more expensive Western made goods) and the environmentalists who do not want that dirty steel mill down the road and the demands that governments place on industry in the form of taxation and employment law. The move to manufacture in China is inevitable, and certainly in the UK we lack the infrastructure and training and will to manufacture a large portion of the goods we purchase from China

Having had items manufactured in China, IMHO the main issue with quality stems from a lack of education of the Chinese workforce and management on the need to follow and enforce manufacturing perimeters and quality and a lack of understanding by Western companies that they need enforce quality through stringent and onsite inspections and if need be testing. Not all Chinese companies produce poor quality products and some are very successful, and it would be my observation that poor products often stem from West Companies 'cutting too many corners' or trying to drive the price too low.

I remember reading construction tenders in the late 1970's and 80's where the specification forbade the use of Japanese steel.............................how the times have changed

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline H0  
#257 Posted : 19 November 2018 11:58:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
In light of the sheer number of components made in China I would think it was quite hard to buy a complex item with electronics that does not have at least one component inside made in China, this is now a fact of life
Items marked "Made in Germany" can have 49% "Made in China" in them.
Items marked "Made in China" have 50+% "Made in China" in them - or at least they should have.

According to the US regulations, the "Made in..." just identifies where the lion's share came from.

As I understand it, hrbla did not report Märklin to the BBB, they just enquired at the BBB about the country of origin declarations.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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MrB32  
#258 Posted : 19 November 2018 12:19:32(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Marklin has stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years now... This stopped during their insolvency, when they moved everything from China to Györ in Hungary. Today they produce in Göppingen and Györ.

There will certainly be Chinese made components here and there, as GlennM said, this is a fact of life these days.

Based on this, i am a bit puzzled: how can one purchase new Märklin products made in China in 2018... Is this new old stock?
Offline Drongo  
#259 Posted : 19 November 2018 12:55:10(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 997
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
Marklin has stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years now... This stopped during their insolvency, when they moved everything from China to Györ in Hungary. Today they produce in Göppingen and Györ.

There will certainly be Chinese made components here and there, as GlennM said, this is a fact of life these days.

Based on this, i am a bit puzzled: how can one purchase new Märklin products made in China in 2018... Is this new old stock?


Sorry, I must disagree with your statement that Marklin stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years. I bought a steam loco 37017 and have had problems with it - returned twice to Marklin service - and in the report back form Marklin service, it clearly states "Country of Origin: People's Republic of CHINA". So they are still getting items made in China and they are still inferior products. To really rub salt in the wounds - this model has a 5 year warranty !!!!!!! Marklin Sales and Development departments are either crazy or stupid.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline MaerklinLife  
#260 Posted : 19 November 2018 13:05:02(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 455
Anyone has the French 241 steamer from last year? Or ordered the new surprise loco? All made in China. No one complains about the quality as far as I have heard.

Products from China comes in the quality the company pays for. There is no such thing as BECAUSE it is made in China it is automatically bad quality. You get what you pay for.
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MrB32  
#261 Posted : 19 November 2018 13:31:57(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
one learns something new everyday... Thanks for enlightening me.
Offline H0  
#262 Posted : 19 November 2018 13:48:12(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
Marklin has stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years now... This stopped during their insolvency, when they moved everything from China to Györ in Hungary. Today they produce in Göppingen and Györ.

There will certainly be Chinese made components here and there, as GlennM said, this is a fact of life these days.
Märklin announce that a production line will be transferred from China to Hungary - and true Märklin fans understand production in China is over for good. This always amazes me.

Will the new BR 08.10 come with "Made in China" stickers?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#263 Posted : 19 November 2018 15:08:03(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,078
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Will the new BR 08.10 come with "Made in China" stickers?


I believe that it will, at least for the models bought by US dealers directly from Märklin for US consumption.

My 37015 and 39241 are both marked as "Made in China", as you would expect. I have so far seen no indications that they are inferior in any way to my German made models and in fact they have had no issues at all. Several of my Göyr made items have had significant quality issues and a few from Göppingen have has issues as well. International supply chains are here to stay, often driven by buyers focusing primarily on the bottom line price.

I do have some Märklin models which do not carry any indication on the packaging as to where they were made. I assume that they were made for other markets and later traded/sold to the US dealers from whom I purchased them. In a small market such as Märklin trains that is not uncommon and IMO does not raise to the level of needing to get the government involved. Do your research and you will figure out where the models were manufactured, if that is important to you.

But if you think that your hobby is going to improve with government intervention, I believe that you are seriously mistaken. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mike c  
#264 Posted : 19 November 2018 18:44:01(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,226
Location: Montreal, QC
Some models are just variants of existing models, in which case, the parts might already have been produced and are simply now being finished with the appropriate livery, so the models are still "Made in China". It also occurs that standard parts which are used in a number of models might be sourced in China and then used to assemble the models in Hungary.

In America, that would be known as "assembled in USA from parts made in China"

The laws are different. EU law allowed the product to be labelled according to the location of the final production. USA (NAFTA/USMCA) requires that product be labelled by country where the "lion's share" of manufacturing occurred.

To import goods into USA/North America, the CoO (Country of Origin) must be noted on the package. Maerklin has applied "Made in China" stickers on the packaging of applicable items.

Models ordered from EU (small mail order) often arrive here without those stickers.

I have imported goods into Canada commercially and have received goods from or "in Transit" via USA. I have exported to the USA (transit or small shipment), but not in a manner where I have had to process
a declaration (manifest). I suppose that a larger shipment would require invoices showing product information including CoO for each individual item.
Canada requires a separate entry for each CoO, so you would have to list product made in Germany, product made in Hungary and product made in China on separate lines.

A further note, made in EU is not an acceptable label in USA/Canada. The information must include the specific country.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#265 Posted : 19 November 2018 19:49:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Some models are just variants of existing models, in which case, the parts might already have been produced and are simply now being finished with the appropriate livery, so the models are still "Made in China".
Like the French 241, the Swiss Elephant, or the Bay S 2/6?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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MrB32  
#266 Posted : 19 November 2018 20:26:14(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
Marklin has stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years now... This stopped during their insolvency, when they moved everything from China to Györ in Hungary. Today they produce in Göppingen and Györ.

There will certainly be Chinese made components here and there, as GlennM said, this is a fact of life these days.
Märklin announce that a production line will be transferred from China to Hungary - and true Märklin fans understand production in China is over for good. This always amazes me.

Will the new BR 08.10 come with "Made in China" stickers?


Why does this amaze you?
Offline H0  
#267 Posted : 19 November 2018 21:30:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
It amazes me how successful Märklin use their weapons of mass deception.
Many people "heard" that production in China for Märklin ended 10 years ago, but nobody has a link to an official announcement.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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MrB32  
#268 Posted : 19 November 2018 21:39:22(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
It amazes me how successful Märklin use their weapons of mass deception.
Many people "heard" that production in China for Märklin ended 10 years ago, but nobody has a link to an official announcement.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln


Very funny! You are right... According to a "Der Spiegel" article I read in September 2018, China (pronounced with a K :) in Göppingen) is over... You have to dig into the financial reports to find out that some stuff is still assembled there.... very naughty, another case of trying to have your cake and eat it...
Offline Minok  
#269 Posted : 20 November 2018 00:16:08(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,898
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
In light of the sheer number of components made in China I would think it was quite hard to buy a complex item with electronics that does not have at least one component inside made in China, this is now a fact of life
Items marked "Made in Germany" can have 49% "Made in China" in them.
Items marked "Made in China" have 50+% "Made in China" in them - or at least they should have.

According to the US regulations, the "Made in..." just identifies where the lion's share came from.

As I understand it, hrbla did not report Märklin to the BBB, they just enquired at the BBB about the country of origin declarations.


When, which marking is applied, in terms of origin, depends on the country that is requiring the marking and what rules apply.

In the USA, for example, to designate something as "Made in USA" - ALL OF IT must be made in the US, not just 51% of it, but 100% of it (or effectively 100% of it). From our Federal Trade Commission (government) website:
Quote:
"The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims
What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?

For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.
What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content."


Working from such a position, I would be willing to bet that almost no complex product on the face of the earth can qualify for any such "Made In" designations anymore other than food and the most basic manufactured items. I would say that if a US producer sews together a US flag made out of cloth which they weave, that is manufactured from raw cotton imported from Asia, using dyes that were imported from Germany, that this flag should NOT qualify as "Made in USA" by the above regulation. Whether that is true or not I don't know, but that is what my reading of the description from the FTC suggests. My guess is there is some minimal origin (such as to raw materials) that the conditions don't apply to.

So every automobile is "Made in Nowhere particular" these days.

That a manufacturer of price sensitive product that contains plastic moldings or metal stampings and electronics doesn't use Asian sourced content for a significant number of those basic parts (to the extent that the quality control can be maintained) would surprise me.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Minok  
#270 Posted : 20 November 2018 00:21:13(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,898
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: hrbla Go to Quoted Post
Maybe Marklin should pass on the savings to its loyal customers like us.


Ha, that is a desire to get something that does not exist. Any reduction in the "cost of goods sold" that results in production already being in China, is already reflected in the pricing that Märklin put on the product for sale to the dealers. Your desire is as likely to be satisfied as it is for Apple to start selling the iPhone XS at 10% above its cost to manufacture in China. Not going to happen.

The profits made form the sale of the product to consumers is used to fund the broader operations of the company, fund the additional product development, and return the desired returns of the investors/owners. Märklin is not a non-profit organization.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline dickinsonj  
#271 Posted : 20 November 2018 02:19:09(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,078
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

Ha, that is a desire to get something that does not exist. Any reduction in the "cost of goods sold" that results in production already being in China, is already reflected in the pricing that Märklin put on the product for sale to the dealers. Your desire is as likely to be satisfied as it is for Apple to start selling the iPhone XS at 10% above its cost to manufacture in China. Not going to happen.

The profits made form the sale of the product to consumers is used to fund the broader operations of the company, fund the additional product development, and return the desired returns of the investors/owners. Märklin is not a non-profit organization.


I totally agree.

I also would add that the models in question are more highly detailed and more precisely assembled than the "real Märklins" made in Göppingen usually are. I actually believe that Märklin is getting it right in European production, by adding hand finishing to sophisticated metal casting and imprinting to create models which are a good value. The core of Märklin's products are solid performers and nicely finished, if just a bit pricey. BigGrin

Märklin could make these special models in Germany but they would be cost prohibitive and they would never sell. I like the core of my Märklins products to be made in Europe but I have no problem with these beautiful, special models from China, which we would never see otherwise.

In today's business world you have to be agile and I like how Märklin has items for such a wide range of tastes and budgets. I also like the wonderful Christmas commercial, which I had thought to be a lost art and which shows the magic of model trains. BigGrin

Today Märklin offers lots of choices for a lot of different people, which I think is amazing. That is the kind of market positioning that will allow Märklin to survive into the future, which is exactly what we all want, I believe. Cool

BTW - vote with your money and tell them that HO is the way to go. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline TEEWolf  
#272 Posted : 20 November 2018 02:59:10(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,547
Location: Bavaria
By the way, why is it so important to you, where the product was produced?

For myself more important is the product quality in design, production, level of detail, surface feel. Not the country where it came from.

And in addition for Märklin, I think it always has to be seperated between the time before and after the buying of the owner Sieber.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline H0  
#273 Posted : 20 November 2018 08:18:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
By the way, why is it so important to you, where the product was produced?
It does not really matter where things are made - but Märklin have a long tradition of denying that some items come from Far-East.
Transparency did not get better since Sieber & Sieber took over.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline MaerklinLife  
#274 Posted : 20 November 2018 09:12:37(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 455
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
It does not really matter where things are made - but Märklin have a long tradition of denying that some items come from Far-East.
Transparency did not get better since Sieber & Sieber took over.

Of course it matters, you would not care about transparency in production countries if it truly did not. Yet you do.

This issue keeps coming up and from my chair it looks like nothing more than people hating the fact that it does not say Made in Germany on the box. Because, in many people's eyes, Made in Germany means quality, Made in China does not. Simple as that.

Personally I don't care where things are made as long as they are up to expectations.

Edited by user 21 November 2018 03:46:44(UTC)  | Reason: Clarified my own point of view

Offline RayF  
#275 Posted : 20 November 2018 10:38:48(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,319
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I also agree that it does not matter where things are made as long as they are well made and at a good price.

The fiction that "Made in Germany" is good quality and " Made in China" is bad quality is seen for what it is when you look at the beautifully detailed and fully featured models we are seeing today compared to the 'chunky' more toy-like models of yesterday.

As for reliability, this is more a function of complexity of the model than where it is made. Old Marklin models didn't go wrong because there was nothing to go wrong. As the electronics got more complex and the details more fine the rate of failures went up, even before they made a single model in China!

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#276 Posted : 20 November 2018 20:29:05(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,547
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
It does not really matter where things are made - but Märklin have a long tradition of denying that some items come from Far-East.
Transparency did not get better since Sieber & Sieber took over.

Of course it matters, you would not care about transparency in production countries if it truly did not. Yet you do.

This issue keeps coming up and from my chair it looks like nothing more than people hating the fact that it does not say Made in Germany on the box. Because Made in Germany means quality, Made in China does not. Simple as that.


The thinking about "Made in Germany" quality times is superseded. In my opinion today it is a "Made by company" indicated.

Take the very sensitive and security related production of airplanes. Airbus is producing its A 320-family not only in Toulouse / France. Also they produce the A 320 in Hamburg / Germany, Tianjin / China and in Mobile, Alabama / USA. Does anyone asks an airline where the A 320 was built, before he is entering such a plane?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Minok  
#277 Posted : 20 November 2018 23:24:35(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,898
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


The thinking about "Made in Germany" quality times is superseded. In my opinion today it is a "Made by company" indicated.


This is absolutely true in today's manufacturing world; fully agree. Complex products are made from parts and sub-assemblies from around the globe. The new iPhone I purchased just today says "Designed in the US" or something like that on it, but its manufactured in China.


Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Take the very sensitive and security related production of airplanes. Airbus is producing its A 320-family not only in Toulouse / France. Also they produce the A 320 in Hamburg / Germany, Tianjin / China and in Mobile, Alabama / USA. Does anyone asks an airline where the A 320 was built, before he is entering such a plane?


Well, governments care, for political protectionism reasons. Thats the reason why Airbus Group set up a plant in Alabama. They could not (and will not be able to) sell a military aircraft such as the refueling tanker, to the US Government if it is made outside of the United States - that is why they had no chance against the Boeing bid. So to be able to sell commercial derivative military airplanes they set up a base inside the US to start with.

But for individuals, I agree completely, it should not matter - its the price, quality and long term support that matters.

"Made in Germany" meant something in the pre-2000 era I suppose, but the worlds car makers (and its not just the German ones that did this, but they were the first to get caught) spoiled that. The engineering is still top notch for sure, so from an product standpoint, I'd still prefer German engineering on a product, but the political/business influences have been the bad apple that spoiled the batch. China is fighting in the other direction - their cheap manufacturing and industrial base that cuts corners, cheats and lies were ever it can because if they don't get caught it doesn't matter, had given the "Made in China" label a bad name out of the gate. The cheap gold plastic stickers didn't help. Poisoning pets with food tainted with chemicals to pass ingredient tests as higher grade content, didn't help. But they can make good stuff if the management and oversight is there to make sure the product is of quality when it leaves the factory. Its just not a core of the political system nor the culture of the people (yet) but over time they may get there. For now we all, with all brands, do the Reagan thing: "Trust, but verify".
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline Goofy  
#278 Posted : 21 November 2018 10:37:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,909
Who did said Märklin forever…?? Confused

LOL LOL LOL
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline veloboldie  
#279 Posted : 21 November 2018 19:08:47(UTC)
veloboldie

United States   
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Posts: 8
Location: Arvada
Originally Posted by: stlcards54 Go to Quoted Post
I just got my 37015 S2/6 model in. Will post pics soon. But box said made in China. I haven't bought Marklin trains in quite awhile. I thought all manufacturing was Germany or Hungary.


Plugs and sockets are made in China and most likely very small accessories. Locomotives, cars etc are made either in Germany or Hungry.
Offline H0  
#280 Posted : 21 November 2018 19:59:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: veloboldie Go to Quoted Post
Plugs and sockets are made in China and most likely very small accessories. Locomotives, cars etc are made either in Germany or Hungry.
Official links that support your opinion?
How about third-party products sold by Märklin?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Jabez  
#281 Posted : 21 November 2018 21:03:19(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 527
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone asks an airline where the A 320 was built, before he is entering such a plane?

In the old days when you walked out to the plane I used to kick the tires, but now you can't even do thatBigGrin

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
MrB32  
#282 Posted : 21 November 2018 22:53:59(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: veloboldie Go to Quoted Post
Plugs and sockets are made in China and most likely very small accessories. Locomotives, cars etc are made either in Germany or Hungry.
Official links that support your opinion?
How about third-party products sold by Märklin?



To maybe close another loop in this thread, here is a response on the topic from Märklin customer service received today (translated from german from yours truly...)

"As far as the production of our products is concerned, there are generally three production options, namely our plant in Göppingen, our plant in Hungary or external cooperation partners. All three options guarantee that the products bear the hallmark of our development and construction in Göppingen, in essence the basic requirements are controlled from Göppingen, so that the quality of our models consistently meets high standards. In addition to the quality of the product, we also ensure a consistently high level of quality when carrying out production across all locations. In addition, most models are manufactured in a company network. This means that individual components are manufactured at different locations and therefore the product can not always be assigned to a location.
In this respect, we have decided not to make any statement regarding the production location of individual products, with one exception: the Märklin insider product is always produced in Göppingen, and this is also communicated in this way.
The fact that we do not make any statements about the individual production locations is partly due to the fact that we want to prevent one of our production sites from being discredited, because, as already mentioned, the Märklin philosophy for high quality is the same everywhere."

So aside from insider models, they can produce "anything" "somewhere" outside of their 2 production locations, and they won't say "what" and "where". They don't mind not correcting false statements in press articles either.

The problem for me is not China, or Vietnam, or France or the UK or anywhere else. As a consumer, I like to know where the products I buy come from ahead of buying them.

I am happy using my Apple products, none of which come from California, but China... Apple is transparent about the origin of their production, and they are still able to sell overpriced products to people happy to be fleeced.

Märklin is simply dishonest in this respect, they know their customers expect the "made in Germany" (or "Made close to Germany" BigGrin ) label, so they are keeping stumm, because they fear a loss of reputation.

The September 2018 article in the "Der Spiegel" magazine is a good example: they interview Bächle, Märklin CEO, who says that China was a bad decision at the time, proceed in the article to say that Märklin has re-shored their production to Germany and Ungary. Where is the erratum from Märklin? Nowhere to be found... Doing nothing is sometimes the best policy or as H0 said, it's a well oiled deception machine...
Offline sjbartels  
#283 Posted : 22 November 2018 05:36:46(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 927
Here in the US, everything Marklin has here has a "Made In" sticker on it. Thats a US law.

That being said, it's been quite a few years on any locomotive or car where I have seen "Made in China", in fact 2015 would be the last. Now components etc I can't comment, but made in China on the former has been a while.
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline MaerklinLife  
#284 Posted : 22 November 2018 06:10:13(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 455
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
The problem for me is not China, or Vietnam, or France or the UK or anywhere else. As a consumer, I like to know where the products I buy come from ahead of buying them.

It it doesn't matter, then why do you want to know?

Märklin is in their right to not disclose anything. Customers who does not like that can vote with their money.

I don't see the same complaints about Roco or others. None of which (with the exception of PIKO) is open about their origin of production.

Why is this only a thing with Märklin? It's weird.

The customer should not have to care about this.
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Offline H0  
#285 Posted : 22 November 2018 08:18:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
Here in the US, everything Marklin has here has a "Made In" sticker on it. Thats a US law.
Sure. But consumers buying from European dealers do not see "Made in...". Consumers buying from US dealers who order through European dealers (and not the official distribution channel) will not see "Made in...".

Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
I don't see the same complaints about Roco or others. None of which (with the exception of PIKO) is open about their origin of production.
Roco said China was over (Märklin never said that). I believe that Roco no longer makes rolling stock in China. They have plants in Austria, Romania, Slovakia, and Vietnam. And I sometimes see "Made in VN" on their boxes.
But I also believe that Roco power supplies and other electronic components are still coming from China.
Transparency could be better, even with Piko (no "Made in..." anywhere, but their plant in China is no secret).


Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
The September 2018 article in the "Der Spiegel" magazine is a good example: they interview Bächle, Märklin CEO, who says that China was a bad decision at the time, proceed in the article to say that Märklin has re-shored their production to Germany and Ungary. Where is the erratum from Märklin? Nowhere to be found... Doing nothing is sometimes the best policy or as H0 said, it's a well oiled deception machine...
China was a bad move before 2008 because they had bad partners in China. Now it is a good move because they have good partners in China (or Korea or wherever).
At court you have to tell the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth. Deception starts when you tell the truth, but not the full truth. Partial truth can be very manipulative.

When I'm 30 minutes late at work and tell my boss the train was delayed then this is the truth. Even if the train was only late by 2 minutes.
Märklin like to talk about the tip of the ice cube (production that was transferred from China to Hungary) and not about the rest (production that is still in Far-East).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mbarreto  
#286 Posted : 22 November 2018 10:28:18(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 839
I think transparency is a great plus. Not only about made in, but also about what motors are being used, etc.
I also think some products are built with parts done in several geographies and so it is not easy to say they were "made in", but rather "assembled in".
As time goes by it is less important, from a quality perspective, where the parts of the item were made and the item was assembled. It is really important the design and quality control of the production and of the final product.

From a more political perspective one may prefer to favor some areas that have a special political orientation because one maybe convinced it is better for the world. Also, in a different way, one may prefer made in "my own country" for help the society one lives in. It is only if one cares about some of these 2 situations that I think it is important where the "made in" was. Although I don't have many choice to choose where it was made in current days for some products, for me these 2 count a bit..
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline David Dewar  
#287 Posted : 22 November 2018 12:07:56(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,605
Location: Scotland
Don't care where the items are made. If the loco works ..and all mine do .. and the detail is good then that is fine by me. If you don't like where it is made then the choice is not to buy. Almost everything I buy comes from China, Japan or South Korea. One of my cars from Japan never goes wrong but the other from Europe has problems from time to time. I have Samsung TVs which are excellent.

Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline David Dewar  
#288 Posted : 22 November 2018 12:16:44(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,605
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
The problem for me is not China, or Vietnam, or France or the UK or anywhere else. As a consumer, I like to know where the products I buy come from ahead of buying them.

It it doesn't matter, then why do you want to know?

Märklin is in their right to not disclose anything. Customers who does not like that can vote with their money.

I don't see the same complaints about Roco or others. None of which (with the exception of PIKO) is open about their origin of production.

Why is this only a thing with Märklin? It's weird.

The customer should not have to care about this.


Exactly. If some on here dont like where it is made then dont buy it. We do of course get problems with locos and control systems etc most of which are solved with help on our forum. A few others just complain and run down Marklin at every opportunity.

In todays world manufacturing no matter where is not as good as it was.

Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline petestra  
#289 Posted : 22 November 2018 13:14:21(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,598
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Don't care where the items are made. If the loco works ..and all mine do .. and the detail is good then that is fine by me. If you don't like where it is made then the choice is not to buy. Almost everything I buy comes from China, Japan or South Korea. One of my cars from Japan never goes wrong but the other from Europe has problems from time to time. I have Samsung TVs which are excellent.



Yes, I agree, David. We have two Samsung TVs and they are excellent HOWEVER when it comes to certain things, like food for people and our beloved pets, it's a

different story. In 2005 & 2006 we lost two beloved pets due to plastics (Melamine) which the Chinese manufacturer had put into pet foods and had caused cancer and

kidney failure in our pets and had killed countless other dogs and cats worldwide. This is well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org...ki/2007_pet_food_recalls

Well as far as our hobby is concerned I prefer our items to be made in Europe at this time, and always with strict quality control efforts. Peter.

MrB32  
#290 Posted : 22 November 2018 14:29:58(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
The problem for me is not China, or Vietnam, or France or the UK or anywhere else. As a consumer, I like to know where the products I buy come from ahead of buying them.

It it doesn't matter, then why do you want to know?

Märklin is in their right to not disclose anything. Customers who does not like that can vote with their money.

I don't see the same complaints about Roco or others. None of which (with the exception of PIKO) is open about their origin of production.

Why is this only a thing with Märklin? It's weird.

The customer should not have to care about this.


Exactly. If some on here dont like where it is made then dont buy it. We do of course get problems with locos and control systems etc most of which are solved with help on our forum. A few others just complain and run down Marklin at every opportunity.

In todays world manufacturing no matter where is not as good as it was.



I care because I am a Märklin fan, and I have expectations based on the image Märklin has decided to convey. I am also someone who tries to spend his money as ethically as possible.

So it is very important for me to know where things come from, would you eat an apple from Tchernobyl? Wear clothes made by 5 year olds in a sweat shop? If the Märklin CEO is saying that China production was a disaster, why should I trust that their products made there are good? China is also not known for good working conditions... Look at the problems Apple had a few years ago... If I know where things come from ahead of time, I am able to make an informed decision. If I am curious, I can do a bit of homework and I can use my feet and spend my money on something else if I come across something I don't like. Märklin is taking this option away from me by not disclosing information.

If the company is not being honest with me, then I am annoyed, all because I care. We are all paying the Märklin tax, we should expect some transparency for the privilege. Roco is open about their production, (https://www.roco.cc/en/aboutus/locations/index.html), so is Piko (https://www.piko.de/DE/index.php/en/company.html), compare this to the equivalent Märklin page (https://www.maerklin.de/de/unternehmen/standorte/). By being open, the customer expectation is set correctly and the conversation is focussed on the product.
Offline H0  
#291 Posted : 22 November 2018 15:39:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Roco have their own plant in Vietnam, so they have control what is going on. If they treat the workers well the knowledge will stay within the company.
Piko have their own plant in China, so they have control what is going on. As I understand it they need a Chinese partner to run a plant there, so they do not control 100%. If they treat the workers well the knowledge will stay within the company.

Märklin have plants in Germany and Hungary only. And several co-operation partners.
Roco have co-operations with Hobby Trade and Tillig. I do not know where that rolling stock is being made.
But AFAIK Märklin also make co-operations with Hobby Trade and Tillig.

Liliput by Bachmann show "Made in China" on every box. I don't know any other MRR company that gives me the same level of transparency.

Maybe one day EU regulations will require declaration of origin.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#292 Posted : 23 November 2018 02:21:41(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,078
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post

In todays world manufacturing no matter where is not as good as it was.



Exactly - lower production standards are driven by consumer demand for lower prices. In almost all markets there is a race to the bottom on hardware to pare costs to the bone. IMO Märklin has done better than most in this brave new world, and I commend the current owners for taking the long view and keeping the Märklin quality level relatively high. I know that there are a lot of glass half full old timers like me around this forum, but different times call for different business strategies if a company wants to survive.

And I can't just accept that my recent Chinese made Märklin products are some kind of ripoff of uninformed consumers, when they are the most detailed and perfect locos that I own. I only have a few, but so far there have been zero issues with any of them. BigGrin

My SNCF 241.A.65 commands all eyes when she runs and no one ever asks where that beauty was built. Cool

Transparency is great and all, but the prejudice shown here on the forum against Chinese made products shows why Märklin might want to skip the details and just focus on delivering a quality product, regardless of where it is sourced. If they don't make that transition to international production, they will not survive and I can't believe that anyone here wants that to happen, regardless of what our dream Märklin might be.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#293 Posted : 23 November 2018 09:31:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
My SNCF 241.A.65 commands all eyes when she runs and no one ever asks where that beauty was built. Cool
Maybe some folks want to avoid "Made in Hungary". Märklin had a few problems both with German engineering and with Hungarian assembling.
They want us to believe that all problems were caused by Chinese contractors and that production in China is over and all problems are solved.

It seems nowadays there are fewer issues with Märklin locos made in China than with their European production.
Quality matters. And when quality is not good enough, people start wondering where it was made.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#294 Posted : 24 November 2018 01:02:03(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,078
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Quality matters. And when quality is not good enough, people start wondering where it was made.


Excellent point.

Once a company loses the total trust of their customers things are on a whole new footing and it is just good sense to question and be cautious. Märklin lost a lot of credibility during the bankruptcies due to the many quality issues that we all know about. But being a glass half full kind of guy I see things improving over the last couple of years, at least with the quality of the Märklin products which I have bought.

In just my personal sampling most of my models with production problems, mostly passenger coaches, were made in Hungary. My Insider VT 95.9 railbus was beautifully crafted in Göppingen and ran for a full two weeks before it consumed its decoder and motherboard. None of my Chinese made products have ever had a problem and they have gorgeous details and finishes, as good or better than the "real" thing. I think a wise buyer keeps an open mind and if the quality is there does not really care about the country of assembly, as Tom says.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
MrB32  
#295 Posted : 24 November 2018 01:58:11(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I think a wise buyer keeps an open mind and if the quality is there does not really care about the country of assembly, as Tom says.



This is exactly why Marklin can only benefit from being transparent. At the moment, I can only think they have something to hide. They should embrace their supply strategy, celebrate it, and show customers they have regained control. A nice display of confidence could help avoid such threads.

So Märklin:

Please make a feature out of your Chinese production, give them a place on your web site, do a few video features about them on Marklin TV, and tell your CEO to stop putting them down publicly.
Offline Mark_1602  
#296 Posted : 25 November 2018 15:14:57(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Roco said China was over (Märklin never said that). I believe that Roco no longer makes rolling stock in China. They have plants in Austria, Romania, Slovakia, and Vietnam. And I sometimes see "Made in VN" on their boxes.


How long do you think they will keep all of those factories running, given their huge losses last year? You're basically right in saying that Märklin has deceived its customers for many years and that the quality of Märklin products (no matter where they are made) is not what it used to be 20 or 30 years ago, but the company makes a profit every year.

Märklin wouldn't have survived the insolvency if they hadn't sold us expensive locos with cheap motors and lousy decoders after February 2009. That's the ugly truth IMO. Märklin cut corners at the expense of quality and reliability to make ends meet. They might not have production under control, but from a financial point of view, Märklin is doing better than most of its competitors.

Of course that's not an excuse for bad quality. There's no excuse for that. Personally, I'm glad that Märklin has survived, but I refuse to pay for poor quality. Most Märklin items I buy nowadays are vintage anyway. Sometimes I buy new stuff, but I send every warranty back case to Göppingen. About one week ago I returned to container cars because one of the tiny holes drilled into the frame was not deep enough, so one container could not be fitted in each car. Probably those freight cars (47048) were made in Hungary, but that's not really relevant. They should have been checked before they left the factory, but I suspect that real quality control would erode Märklin's modest profit. That's the key problem IMO. The country of origin is secondary.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline Mark_1602  
#297 Posted : 25 November 2018 15:38:12(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post


This is exactly why Marklin can only benefit from being transparent. At the moment, I can only think they have something to hide.


Yes, they do. There's been no real quality control since about 2005. Watch the Märklin videos that show the production in Györ. In the last production step, workers appear to check the products they've made themselves. Märklin used to employ people who checked other workers' finished products, but you never see people like that on Märklin TV, do you? There seems to be a quality management system for newly-designed locos in Göppingen, especially for club models, but that's all I've seen in Märklin videos.

Best regards,

Mark

P.S. In a MRR shop near Göppingen, I once had a conversation with a woman who had worked for Märklin as a controller (Prüfer) until 2005. A few hundred workers were sacked at the factory in Göppingen between 2003 and and 2005, as I know from press reports. That was the end of the legendary Märklin quality control. In 2009, Mr Pluta announced that quality control had been reintroduced, thus acknowledging that there hadn't been any for some years, but now it's called quality management and it's not the same as it used to be. What they have now might work reasonably well in Göppingen, but the vast majority of their products aren't made there. In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced, so quantity is more important than quality, hence the numerous warranty cases. Can Märklin afford to be transparent??
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline H0  
#298 Posted : 25 November 2018 15:51:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
How long do you think they will keep all of those factories running, given their huge losses last year?
How long probably is the wrong question. They reduce the workforce in Austria as they have cheaper alternatives, but I think they will keep a bit of "Made in Austria" for a long time.

The latest official Märklin figure shows less than 225 blue-collar workers for Germany. They will keep the Göppingen factory running for a long time, I guess.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#299 Posted : 25 November 2018 16:10:10(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
How long do you think they will keep all of those factories running, given their huge losses last year?
How long probably is the wrong question. They reduce the workforce in Austria as they have cheaper alternatives, but I think they will keep a bit of "Made in Austria" for a long time.

The latest official Märklin figure shows less than 225 blue-collar workers for Germany. They will keep the Göppingen factory running for a long time, I guess.


Things will get difficult for most MRR manufacturers in the next recession, especially for those that lose money now.

I suppose most of those 225 workers focus on die-cast parts, prototypes and pre-series of newly designed models, as well as on a few other selected locos. The show must go on for the visitors ...
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline H0  
#300 Posted : 25 November 2018 16:51:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,422
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
The show must go on for the visitors ...
Yes. And until 2019 Märklin may not sack any of their Göppingen workforce. We will see if they extend the no-firing agreement.

Regards
Tom
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"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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