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Offline kiwiAlan  
#301 Posted : 25 November 2018 17:23:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 3,725
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced,


Do you have any hard evidence for this ?

Offline Mark_1602  
#302 Posted : 25 November 2018 21:58:31(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced,


Do you have any hard evidence for this ?



I've read that more than once, though I can't recall where. Might have been Stummis Forum, a press report or even a Märklin video. If I find it again, I'll tell you or post it here. IMO the numerous warranty cases of Märklin products made there qualify as hard evidence. Actually, that problem intensified after the factory in Györ was extended. Ironically, moving part of the production from China to Hungary after the insolvency did not improve the quality of Märklin products. Over 10 per cent of items I've bought since 2013 were warranty cases. Some people who work there don't seem to worry about quality or customers. If they were paid to produce the best quality, neither me nor other customers would have had those cases.

Best regards,
Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Online TEEWolf  
#303 Posted : 26 November 2018 01:48:38(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post


This is exactly why Marklin can only benefit from being transparent. At the moment, I can only think they have something to hide.


Yes, they do. There's been no real quality control since about 2005. Watch the Märklin videos that show the production in Györ. In the last production step, workers appear to check the products they've made themselves. Märklin used to employ people who checked other workers' finished products, but you never see people like that on Märklin TV, do you? There seems to be a quality management system for newly-designed locos in Göppingen, especially for club models, but that's all I've seen in Märklin videos.

Best regards,

Mark

P.S. In a MRR shop near Göppingen, I once had a conversation with a woman who had worked for Märklin as a controller (Prüfer) until 2005. A few hundred workers were sacked at the factory in Göppingen between 2003 and and 2005, as I know from press reports. That was the end of the legendary Märklin quality control. In 2009, Mr Pluta announced that quality control had been reintroduced, thus acknowledging that there hadn't been any for some years, but now it's called quality management and it's not the same as it used to be. What they have now might work reasonably well in Göppingen, but the vast majority of their products aren't made there. In Györ, wages are based on the number of items produced, so quantity is more important than quality, hence the numerous warranty cases. Can Märklin afford to be transparent??


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt and survived only because a lot of dealers (combined in the MHI organization) spent plenty of fresh money into a bankrupt company.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#304 Posted : 26 November 2018 08:28:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,199
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before.
Much of the personnel is the same.
The folks on the top floor who try to increase the profitability have changed a few times since 2000. One of the CEOs was around long before 2013 and he ruined his credibility long ago.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#305 Posted : 26 November 2018 10:18:51(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,262
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Online TEEWolf  
#306 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:07:53(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John


Aha, but about which product you are writing?

By the way, Märklin is an independent and privately own company running its own several factories.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#307 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:17:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,199
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Aha, but about which product you are writing?
LOL

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Online TEEWolf  
#308 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:21:47(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Much of the personnel is the same.
The folks on the top floor who try to increase the profitability have changed a few times since 2000. One of the CEOs was around long before 2013 and he ruined his credibility long ago.


What has this to do with the Sieber family? Yourself are writing "... long before ...". This is the point. The only connection, I see, they have accepted a 5 years period for not discharging any employees. This 5 years shall be over soon or are already over. You cannot compare "... long before ..." with today.

My concern is more, Sieber jr. is leaving more or less Märklin and is going back into his fathers company.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#309 Posted : 26 November 2018 22:31:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,199
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
What has this to do with the Sieber family?
One new face in the company, but also many old faces.
As far as I can tell no Märklin CEO was as open about Chinese production as Stephan Löbich. The hazy shade of Glasnost ended when the Siebers took over.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#310 Posted : 27 November 2018 02:06:30(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,262
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
The best quality comes out of Lund (Sweden), its an independent and privately run factory, their production time table is right on time and delivery is prompt, I haven't had a warranty issue yet and its my 3rd item I bought., I think the difference is, they are hand made and they have a long serving loyal quality controller (Cleo).

John


Aha, but about which product you are writing?

By the way, Märklin is an independent and privately own company running its own several factories.


You are a member of this group and you don't know who the person is I'm writing about. shame on you, it is our good and reliable Webmaster Mr. Juhan and his beloved cat "Cleo", officially made "Inspector General" many years ago.
The product is naturally about the "marklin-user.net" carriage

As my father would have said: stay in the corner for 1/2 hour facing the wall

An apology is required. BigGrin

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Mark_1602  
#311 Posted : 27 November 2018 15:37:53(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt ...


I don't mind the new owners personally. Actually, I'm glad that Märklin will still be around in future thanks to their investment, but it's an undeniable fact that the quality of Märklin products that come out of its own factory in Hungary is erratic at best. Customers who make a purchase need to be lucky to get a flawless product. In case you doubt that, I can open a new thread here to document my warranty cases, as I think I still have the relevant documents from the Märklin customer service. Just to give you an example from the last two years, I bought 9 container cars plus one MHI set of five container cars (47689). Out of the nine single cars, I had to send three (!!) back to Göppingen to get them replaced. In the MHI car set, two wheel sets were defect. I think that's not acceptable. To give credit to Märklin's friendly repair service, I'd like to stress that they have sent me two new wheel sets as well as a flawless Evergreen container (47065) car so far. The two remaining ones (47048) will be replaced as well, as I only returned them a short time ago.

I don't mind the people who work in Märklin's headquarters, but my issue is with the products, especially those that are made in Hungary. I've also had warranty cases with Chinese-made Märklin products, such as two new DSB Nohabs in 2015, but not as many.
In the last two days, I watched three Märklin videos about its Hungarian factory. The first video was made in 2012, the last one in 2018, but some untrue statements that are made in each of these videos are absolutely identical. Example: "In Györ, the quality management system is the same as in Göppingen, quality is as good as 'made in Germany', made in China is less good, etc." None of this is true.

My warranty cases started around 2012, when the first new extension in Györ was opened, and there's no end in sight. It's not only the new owners' fault, but probably mostly due to the fact that many new and inexperienced workers were hired there in the last six years. In addition, 50 experienced workers left the Märklin factory in Györ when Audi opened a new plant there (according to German press reports). Märklin's assembly workers in Györ are only paid about 500 euros a month as far as I know, so I don't think they get paid to produce the best quality. Mr Sieber has said in an interview that producing MRR items in Hungary is cheaper than in China. This suggests that the focus must be on quantity and profitability, not on quality. The warranty cases that so many Märklin customers have experienced in recent years prove that IMO. I don't think that there have been many improvements in product quality since 2009, but Märklin's financial situation is definitely better now.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
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Online TEEWolf  
#312 Posted : 30 November 2018 04:22:11(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


Would you please so kind to accept that the owner of Märklin has changed in the year 2013? There is nothing to compare with the time before. Before the company was bankrupt ...


I don't mind the new owners personally. Actually, I'm glad that Märklin will still be around in future thanks to their investment, but it's an undeniable fact that the quality of Märklin products that come out of its own factory in Hungary is erratic at best. Customers who make a purchase need to be lucky to get a flawless product. In case you doubt that, I can open a new thread here to document my warranty cases, as I think I still have the relevant documents from the Märklin customer service. Just to give you an example from the last two years, I bought 9 container cars plus one MHI set of five container cars (47689). Out of the nine single cars, I had to send three (!!) back to Göppingen to get them replaced. In the MHI car set, two wheel sets were defect. I think that's not acceptable. To give credit to Märklin's friendly repair service, I'd like to stress that they have sent me two new wheel sets as well as a flawless Evergreen container (47065) car so far. The two remaining ones (47048) will be replaced as well, as I only returned them a short time ago.

I don't mind the people who work in Märklin's headquarters, but my issue is with the products, especially those that are made in Hungary. I've also had warranty cases with Chinese-made Märklin products, such as two new DSB Nohabs in 2015, but not as many.
In the last two days, I watched three Märklin videos about its Hungarian factory. The first video was made in 2012, the last one in 2018, but some untrue statements that are made in each of these videos are absolutely identical. Example: "In Györ, the quality management system is the same as in Göppingen, quality is as good as 'made in Germany', made in China is less good, etc." None of this is true.

My warranty cases started around 2012, when the first new extension in Györ was opened, and there's no end in sight. It's not only the new owners' fault, but probably mostly due to the fact that many new and inexperienced workers were hired there in the last six years. In addition, 50 experienced workers left the Märklin factory in Györ when Audi opened a new plant there (according to German press reports). Märklin's assembly workers in Györ are only paid about 500 euros a month as far as I know, so I don't think they get paid to produce the best quality. Mr Sieber has said in an interview that producing MRR items in Hungary is cheaper than in China. This suggests that the focus must be on quantity and profitability, not on quality. The warranty cases that so many Märklin customers have experienced in recent years prove that IMO. I don't think that there have been many improvements in product quality since 2009, but Märklin's financial situation is definitely better now.

Best regards,

Mark



Hello Mark,

of course we have to talk about the quality from Märklin. No doubt. I also have articles bought this year and sent back to the dealer and he forwarded it to Märklin, because of bad quality. I agree that here in Germany I do not have to pay so expensive freight charges as sometimes is written about.

But I very often have the feeling in this fourm, it is written about a quality in the year 2000, 2009 or whatever time before the year 2013. But I cannot blame the Siebers for this quality. And the poor quality in the years before 2013 have had its effect. Märklin was bankrupt.

But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?

Regards

Wolfgang
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline H0  
#313 Posted : 30 November 2018 08:26:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,199
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I agree that here in Germany I do not have to pay so expensive freight charges as sometimes is written about.
You should know that you can make the dealer pay for the return postage if you send a defective item back to the dealer.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?
Fair enough.
As I see it Mark mentioned quality issues he experienced during the Sieber era.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline dickinsonj  
#314 Posted : 01 December 2018 00:58:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 838
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Fair enough.
As I see it Mark mentioned quality issues he experienced during the Sieber era.


Yes, and there have definitely been quality issues under their ownership, especially early on with things from Hungary. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Märklin's quality is now magically perfect and that there are never any problems.

What I do suggest is that based on only my personal purchases I have seen far fewer problems in the last 18-24 months and that Märklin quality seem to be heading in the right direction. It may never get back to what many of us remember because those old analog locos are so simple and sturdy that they never break.

Then we all started to whine about why the models didn't have better detailing and more features. So that has all improved but between embedded electronics, non-serviceable motors and more fine detail the new models will never be as reliable as the analog models were - no possible way.

Be careful what you wish for. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#315 Posted : 02 December 2018 17:27:16(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


But I very often have the feeling in this fourm, it is written about a quality in the year 2000, 2009 or whatever time before the year 2013. But I cannot blame the Siebers for this quality. And the poor quality in the years before 2013 have had its effect. Märklin was bankrupt.

But writing about Märklins quality today, we shall open a new thread under Märklins quality in the year 2018 and not mix it up. Fair enough?

Regards

Wolfgang


Hi,

The items I specifically mentioned as examples above (39670 - broken screw thread that made it impossible to fasten the top to the chassis, 39674 - bad motor and/or decoder) as well as the MHI container car set, the DB era IV container cars, and the era VI container cars) were all produced between 2015 and 2017. The 39674 was replaced by my Märklin dealer, but in the case of the 39670, I cancelled the sale and got my money back.

Actually, the only new loco I've ordered in the last two years (39675, DSB Nohab era IV) and which I received a few months ago is perfect. I don't know where it was made. All I can say for sure is that the first newly designed Nohab locos (e.g. 39670, 39674) were made in China back in 2015. The boxes and printing codes differed from those of Märklin products made in Europe. Meanwhile, Märklin has changed the box design, so I can't tell if the 39675 was made in China or Hungary. Märklin still has quite a lot of products made in China, so I think there's no real need to open a new thread.

Criticism is allowed in this forum, as long as it's based on facts, and IMO it won't stop until the high number of Märklin warranty cases is reduced significantly. According to what I've read, warranty cases are rare for Piko products. Why can't Märklin do the same?

Check out the latest financial report about Märklin on www.bundesanzeiger.de (2016/2017). It outlines that Märklin's financial situation is really healthy, but also mentions that one of the company's top priorities is "cutting costs". Those are Märklin's own words.

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by user 02 December 2018 21:03:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
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