making steel in Australia is un-Australian, we keep it simple by making a quick buck, which we (the public) don't benefit from.

John

As having a mixed of “made of-“ on my new Marklin products, I decide to call a local BBB in regards to this very regulation. As informed by a BBB agent, any foreign imported products to US is required to identify the country of manufactured on its packaging, such as wine from France, pastry from Japan, or timepieces from Swiss. Any violation will be reviewed and subjected to applicable penalty based on product category. In this case, it is clear that the Marklin trains that having “made in China” on its packaging are made in China with no doubt. Maybe Marklin should pass on the savings to its loyal customers like us.

I do not understand why you would want to report Marklin to your local BBB

In light of the sheer number of components made in China I would think it was quite hard to buy a complex item with electronics that does not have at least one component inside made in China, this is now a fact of life

The desire to manufacture in China is driven by four factors; customers demanding cheap goods, companies desire to make profits, lack of regulation (health and safety / employment / etc) and environmental (ie dirty polluting industries not in our backyard). Often companies 'greed' pushes manufacturing to China, but do not underestimate the effects of consumer power demanding every cheaper goods (and a general unwillingness to pay for more expensive Western made goods) and the environmentalists who do not want that dirty steel mill down the road and the demands that governments place on industry in the form of taxation and employment law. The move to manufacture in China is inevitable, and certainly in the UK we lack the infrastructure and training and will to manufacture a large portion of the goods we purchase from China

Having had items manufactured in China, IMHO the main issue with quality stems from a lack of education of the Chinese workforce and management on the need to follow and enforce manufacturing perimeters and quality and a lack of understanding by Western companies that they need enforce quality through stringent and onsite inspections and if need be testing. Not all Chinese companies produce poor quality products and some are very successful, and it would be my observation that poor products often stem from West Companies 'cutting too many corners' or trying to drive the price too low.

I remember reading construction tenders in the late 1970's and 80's where the specification forbade the use of Japanese steel.............................how the times have changed

BR

Marklin has stopped producing anything in China for nearly 10 years now... This stopped during their insolvency, when they moved everything from China to Györ in Hungary. Today they produce in Göppingen and Györ.

There will certainly be Chinese made components here and there, as GlennM said, this is a fact of life these days.

Based on this, i am a bit puzzled: how can one purchase new Märklin products made in China in 2018... Is this new old stock?

Anyone has the French 241 steamer from last year? Or ordered the new surprise loco? All made in China. No one complains about the quality as far as I have heard.

Products from China comes in the quality the company pays for. There is no such thing as BECAUSE it is made in China it is automatically bad quality. You get what you pay for.

Märklin announce that a production line will be transferred from China to Hungary - and true Märklin fans understand production in China is over for good. This always amazes me.

Will the new BR 08.10 come with "Made in China" stickers?

Some models are just variants of existing models, in which case, the parts might already have been produced and are simply now being finished with the appropriate livery, so the models are still "Made in China". It also occurs that standard parts which are used in a number of models might be sourced in China and then used to assemble the models in Hungary.

In America, that would be known as "assembled in USA from parts made in China"

The laws are different. EU law allowed the product to be labelled according to the location of the final production. USA (NAFTA/USMCA) requires that product be labelled by country where the "lion's share" of manufacturing occurred.

To import goods into USA/North America, the CoO (Country of Origin) must be noted on the package. Maerklin has applied "Made in China" stickers on the packaging of applicable items.

Models ordered from EU (small mail order) often arrive here without those stickers.

I have imported goods into Canada commercially and have received goods from or "in Transit" via USA. I have exported to the USA (transit or small shipment), but not in a manner where I have had to process
a declaration (manifest). I suppose that a larger shipment would require invoices showing product information including CoO for each individual item.
Canada requires a separate entry for each CoO, so you would have to list product made in Germany, product made in Hungary and product made in China on separate lines.

A further note, made in EU is not an acceptable label in USA/Canada. The information must include the specific country.

Regards

Mike C

Why does this amaze you?

Very funny! You are right... According to a "Der Spiegel" article I read in September 2018, China (pronounced with a K :) in Göppingen) is over... You have to dig into the financial reports to find out that some stuff is still assembled there.... very naughty, another case of trying to have your cake and eat it...

Ha, that is a desire to get something that does not exist. Any reduction in the "cost of goods sold" that results in production already being in China, is already reflected in the pricing that Märklin put on the product for sale to the dealers. Your desire is as likely to be satisfied as it is for Apple to start selling the iPhone XS at 10% above its cost to manufacture in China. Not going to happen.

The profits made form the sale of the product to consumers is used to fund the broader operations of the company, fund the additional product development, and return the desired returns of the investors/owners. Märklin is not a non-profit organization.

By the way, why is it so important to you, where the product was produced?

For myself more important is the product quality in design, production, level of detail, surface feel. Not the country where it came from.

And in addition for Märklin, I think it always has to be seperated between the time before and after the buying of the owner Sieber.

Of course it matters, you would not care about transparency in production countries if it truly did not. Yet you do.

This issue keeps coming up and from my chair it looks like nothing more than people hating the fact that it does not say Made in Germany on the box. Because, in many people's eyes, Made in Germany means quality, Made in China does not. Simple as that.

Personally I don't care where things are made as long as they are up to expectations.

Edited by user 21 November 2018 03:46:44(UTC)  | Reason: Clarified my own point of view

The thinking about "Made in Germany" quality times is superseded. In my opinion today it is a "Made by company" indicated.

Take the very sensitive and security related production of airplanes. Airbus is producing its A 320-family not only in Toulouse / France. Also they produce the A 320 in Hamburg / Germany, Tianjin / China and in Mobile, Alabama / USA. Does anyone asks an airline where the A 320 was built, before he is entering such a plane?

Who did said Märklin forever…??

Official links that support your opinion?
How about third-party products sold by Märklin?

To maybe close another loop in this thread, here is a response on the topic from Märklin customer service received today (translated from german from yours truly...)

"As far as the production of our products is concerned, there are generally three production options, namely our plant in Göppingen, our plant in Hungary or external cooperation partners. All three options guarantee that the products bear the hallmark of our development and construction in Göppingen, in essence the basic requirements are controlled from Göppingen, so that the quality of our models consistently meets high standards. In addition to the quality of the product, we also ensure a consistently high level of quality when carrying out production across all locations. In addition, most models are manufactured in a company network. This means that individual components are manufactured at different locations and therefore the product can not always be assigned to a location.
In this respect, we have decided not to make any statement regarding the production location of individual products, with one exception: the Märklin insider product is always produced in Göppingen, and this is also communicated in this way.
The fact that we do not make any statements about the individual production locations is partly due to the fact that we want to prevent one of our production sites from being discredited, because, as already mentioned, the Märklin philosophy for high quality is the same everywhere."

So aside from insider models, they can produce "anything" "somewhere" outside of their 2 production locations, and they won't say "what" and "where". They don't mind not correcting false statements in press articles either.

The problem for me is not China, or Vietnam, or France or the UK or anywhere else. As a consumer, I like to know where the products I buy come from ahead of buying them.

I am happy using my Apple products, none of which come from California, but China... Apple is transparent about the origin of their production, and they are still able to sell overpriced products to people happy to be fleeced.

Märklin is simply dishonest in this respect, they know their customers expect the "made in Germany" (or "Made close to Germany" ) label, so they are keeping stumm, because they fear a loss of reputation.

The September 2018 article in the "Der Spiegel" magazine is a good example: they interview Bächle, Märklin CEO, who says that China was a bad decision at the time, proceed in the article to say that Märklin has re-shored their production to Germany and Ungary. Where is the erratum from Märklin? Nowhere to be found... Doing nothing is sometimes the best policy or as H0 said, it's a well oiled deception machine...

It it doesn't matter, then why do you want to know?

Märklin is in their right to not disclose anything. Customers who does not like that can vote with their money.

I don't see the same complaints about Roco or others. None of which (with the exception of PIKO) is open about their origin of production.

Why is this only a thing with Märklin? It's weird.

The customer should not have to care about this.

I think transparency is a great plus. Not only about made in, but also about what motors are being used, etc.
I also think some products are built with parts done in several geographies and so it is not easy to say they were "made in", but rather "assembled in".
As time goes by it is less important, from a quality perspective, where the parts of the item were made and the item was assembled. It is really important the design and quality control of the production and of the final product.

From a more political perspective one may prefer to favor some areas that have a special political orientation because one maybe convinced it is better for the world. Also, in a different way, one may prefer made in "my own country" for help the society one lives in. It is only if one cares about some of these 2 situations that I think it is important where the "made in" was. Although I don't have many choice to choose where it was made in current days for some products, for me these 2 count a bit..

Exactly. If some on here dont like where it is made then dont buy it. We do of course get problems with locos and control systems etc most of which are solved with help on our forum. A few others just complain and run down Marklin at every opportunity.

In todays world manufacturing no matter where is not as good as it was.

I care because I am a Märklin fan, and I have expectations based on the image Märklin has decided to convey. I am also someone who tries to spend his money as ethically as possible.

So it is very important for me to know where things come from, would you eat an apple from Tchernobyl? Wear clothes made by 5 year olds in a sweat shop? If the Märklin CEO is saying that China production was a disaster, why should I trust that their products made there are good? China is also not known for good working conditions... Look at the problems Apple had a few years ago... If I know where things come from ahead of time, I am able to make an informed decision. If I am curious, I can do a bit of homework and I can use my feet and spend my money on something else if I come across something I don't like. Märklin is taking this option away from me by not disclosing information.

If the company is not being honest with me, then I am annoyed, all because I care. We are all paying the Märklin tax, we should expect some transparency for the privilege. Roco is open about their production, (https://www.roco.cc/en/aboutus/locations/index.html), so is Piko (https://www.piko.de/DE/index.php/en/company.html), compare this to the equivalent Märklin page (https://www.maerklin.de/de/unternehmen/standorte/). By being open, the customer expectation is set correctly and the conversation is focussed on the product.

Exactly - lower production standards are driven by consumer demand for lower prices. In almost all markets there is a race to the bottom on hardware to pare costs to the bone. IMO Märklin has done better than most in this brave new world, and I commend the current owners for taking the long view and keeping the Märklin quality level relatively high. I know that there are a lot of glass half full old timers like me around this forum, but different times call for different business strategies if a company wants to survive.

And I can't just accept that my recent Chinese made Märklin products are some kind of ripoff of uninformed consumers, when they are the most detailed and perfect locos that I own. I only have a few, but so far there have been zero issues with any of them.

My SNCF 241.A.65 commands all eyes when she runs and no one ever asks where that beauty was built.

Transparency is great and all, but the prejudice shown here on the forum against Chinese made products shows why Märklin might want to skip the details and just focus on delivering a quality product, regardless of where it is sourced. If they don't make that transition to international production, they will not survive and I can't believe that anyone here wants that to happen, regardless of what our dream Märklin might be.

Excellent point.

Once a company loses the total trust of their customers things are on a whole new footing and it is just good sense to question and be cautious. Märklin lost a lot of credibility during the bankruptcies due to the many quality issues that we all know about. But being a glass half full kind of guy I see things improving over the last couple of years, at least with the quality of the Märklin products which I have bought.

In just my personal sampling most of my models with production problems, mostly passenger coaches, were made in Hungary. My Insider VT 95.9 railbus was beautifully crafted in Göppingen and ran for a full two weeks before it consumed its decoder and motherboard. None of my Chinese made products have ever had a problem and they have gorgeous details and finishes, as good or better than the "real" thing. I think a wise buyer keeps an open mind and if the quality is there does not really care about the country of assembly, as Tom says.

How long do you think they will keep all of those factories running, given their huge losses last year? You're basically right in saying that Märklin has deceived its customers for many years and that the quality of Märklin products (no matter where they are made) is not what it used to be 20 or 30 years ago, but the company makes a profit every year.

Märklin wouldn't have survived the insolvency if they hadn't sold us expensive locos with cheap motors and lousy decoders after February 2009. That's the ugly truth IMO. Märklin cut corners at the expense of quality and reliability to make ends meet. They might not have production under control, but from a financial point of view, Märklin is doing better than most of its competitors.

Of course that's not an excuse for bad quality. There's no excuse for that. Personally, I'm glad that Märklin has survived, but I refuse to pay for poor quality. Most Märklin items I buy nowadays are vintage anyway. Sometimes I buy new stuff, but I send every warranty back case to Göppingen. About one week ago I returned to container cars because one of the tiny holes drilled into the frame was not deep enough, so one container could not be fitted in each car. Probably those freight cars (47048) were made in Hungary, but that's not really relevant. They should have been checked before they left the factory, but I suspect that real quality control would erode Märklin's modest profit. That's the key problem IMO. The country of origin is secondary.

Best regards,

Mark

How long probably is the wrong question. They reduce the workforce in Austria as they have cheaper alternatives, but I think they will keep a bit of "Made in Austria" for a long time.

The latest official Märklin figure shows less than 225 blue-collar workers for Germany. They will keep the Göppingen factory running for a long time, I guess.

Yes. And until 2019 Märklin may not sack any of their Göppingen workforce. We will see if they extend the no-firing agreement.