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Offline PhillipL  
#1 Posted : 21 April 2019 01:54:18(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 103
I am just curious, is the dump car item 4413 a fantasy car or is it a model of an actual freight car?
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 21 April 2019 02:06:20(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I believe it is fantasy.

I painted the earlier version, 4413, brown to look less fantastic:

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2015/11/Kippwagen-4513.html

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 21 April 2019 02:56:45(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
I am just curious, is the dump car item 4413 a fantasy car or is it a model of an actual freight car?


Not really a fantasy car. In German they are called "Kipplore", which might be a tipper wagon. Mainly used not in regular long distance trains, but on field railways. See here

https://www.museumsfeldbahn.de/wagen/78

or here in action.

https://de.wikipedia.org...Enttr%C3%BCmmerungen.jpg

More description about a "Feldbahn" (field railway) read here, please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldbahn

Do not know why Märklin did not name it as "LORE". Some people do it, still today.

http://meine-kleine-eise...Selbstentladewagen-W5079

But today in business they are mainly replaced by tipper body trucks with 4 or 6 wheel drives.

Nevertheless there are such Feldbahnen still existing in Germany and used for people transport as well.

https://de.wikipedia.org...nd%E2%80%93Langene%C3%9F

https://en.wikipedia.org...dischmoor_island_railway
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 21 April 2019 11:40:02(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,357
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have three of these and I have also painted them brown, though in real life this type of wagon could be any colour, including "deep rust" BigGrin

UserPostedImage
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline PhillipL  
#5 Posted : 21 April 2019 12:33:20(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 103
All,

Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 21 April 2019 13:25:12(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,357
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
All,

Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time.


It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways.

Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made.

Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 21 April 2019 14:07:36(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
this style of wagon is common in mining operations - but typically on small gauge track - as TEEWolf says - on Feldbahn operations.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 21 April 2019 17:06:20(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,357
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The metal framed version of this wagon was the 4513, which was in the catalogue until 1976. Around that time all 45xx wagons were being replaced by the all-plastic 44xx series, and in 1977 the 4413 appeared for the first time.

The hopper itself was used also in the Minex narrow gauge range as a double unit, and this double unit also appeared in the Gauge 1 range.

Minex - 4459
UserPostedImage

Gauge 1 - 5859
UserPostedImage
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline QQQ1970  
#9 Posted : 17 May 2019 21:37:55(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 140
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
All,

Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time.


It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways.

Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made.

Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets.


I have the version with the release latch to tip the tipper.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 18 May 2019 09:12:11(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,996
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
All,

Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time.


It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways.

Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made.

Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets.


There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts....

Start Set CM805/3 with Silver Tipper

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 18 May 2019 14:39:39(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I have a silver one, which I did not paint brown!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Markus Schild  
#12 Posted : 18 May 2019 20:49:55(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,744
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts....



Hi Cookee,

I only know and have cars made of black plastic, sprayed silver. I have never seen cars made of silver plastic.

Regards

Markus
Offline Jabez  
#13 Posted : 19 May 2019 00:10:57(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 539
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
this style of wagon is common in mining operations - but typically on small gauge track

In mining parlance it is called a cocopan, all over Southern Africa at least. The derivation of the word, for your trivial pursuit winner, is from the Nguni word nqukumbana. The Nguni languages include Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, and many others.
N'jabez Cool

PS. I had one in my first Maerklin set from Germany in 1948 or so. As I recall it was metal, painted red, and had a spring clip to release the pan.
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#14 Posted : 19 May 2019 21:20:21(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post

In mining parlance it is called a cocopan, all over Southern Africa at least. The derivation of the word, for your trivial pursuit winner, is from the Nguni word nqukumbana. The Nguni languages include Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, and many others.
N'jabez Cool


When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.)

Plural would be Izingolovane. Sometimes the word is also used for a wheelbarrow.

Now, the locative form ("place of ") of Izingolovane is Izingolweni, and in southern Natal there is a narrow gauge railway that used to be powered with steam garret locos and one of the stations is Izingolweni - the place of the little carts.....

My grandfather, who worked at a colliery in the 1920s in SA, made a cocopan cart out of brass by hand. I took some pictures:
IMG_20190519_150624.jpg

IMG_20190519_150634.jpg

I forgot to measure, but I think the track is about 25mm wide.


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline cookee_nz  
#15 Posted : 19 May 2019 23:27:54(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,996
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts....



Hi Cookee,

I only know and have cars made of black plastic, sprayed silver. I have never seen cars made of silver plastic.

Regards

Markus


Thanks Markus, that may be my mistake, I was sure I read somewhere (Koll's ?) that they were hard to fake because the colour was in the plastic but appears I was wrong.

Personally I've never seen any other than Red. Something to watch for.

Thanks for the feedback

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Jabez  
#16 Posted : 20 May 2019 21:13:12(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 539
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post


When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.)



Thanks for the expanded explanation. The word 'ingolovane' is clearly cognate to 'nqukumbana' with the 'ingola' bit represented by 'nquku' and 'vane' by 'bana', taking into account the phonetic representation of sound shifts between dialects/languages. The b/v shift occurs in some European languages, e.g. Habana/Havana.
But I think I'll stick to cocopans BigGrin
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 20 May 2019 21:41:45(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post


When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.)



Thanks for the expanded explanation. The word 'ingolovane' is clearly cognate to 'nqukumbana' with the 'ingola' bit represented by 'nquku' and 'vane' by 'bana', taking into account the phonetic representation of sound shifts between dialects/languages. The b/v shift occurs in some European languages, e.g. Habana/Havana.
But I think I'll stick to cocopans BigGrin
Jabez


Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are?

I do not know.Confused So I stick a big Havana (cigar) in my mouth, smoking, dreaming and thinking when this will be an English speaking forum again.Bored
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Jabez  
#18 Posted : 21 May 2019 00:53:22(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 539
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are?

Well you would if you had read the whole thread instead of just the last post.
RTFB or even in this case RTFT is always good advice.Laugh

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline TEEWolf  
#19 Posted : 21 May 2019 18:36:49(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,692
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are?

Well you would if you had read the whole thread instead of just the last post.
RTFB or even in this case RTFT is always good advice.Laugh



Oh I read the total thread. But not everytime a new post occurs. Also are my knowledge of - hm which language was it? - are very limited. I stay with the good Havanna, although I do not smoke.Laugh

But please, may you complete our DoA

https://www.marklin-user...y-of-Abbreviations/page3

with RTFB and RTFT?

Although you mentioned it in post #129 already, but did not explain it. Blink What use does a DoA have, if you do not write the full words beside the abbreviation? Or are you shy?Laugh
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 21 May 2019 23:05:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,067
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Although you mentioned it in post #129 already, but did not explain it. Blink What use does a DoA have, if you do not write the full words beside the abbreviation? Or are you shy?Laugh


Have you read post #134 ?? https://www.marklin-user...Abbreviations#post591088

Or is it that you just don't respect it ?? Cool

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#21 Posted : 01 June 2019 21:38:02(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
What a wonderful series:

It also appears that the 2922 "Texas & Western" set had a silver one:

UserPostedImage

and the 82773 add-on set for mining had Gold, Silver, and Bronze (Copper) ones:

UserPostedImage

Quite 'Olympically' minded...(or maybe someone painted these? Love

Jimmy
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Offline cookee_nz  
#22 Posted : 02 June 2019 06:14:12(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,996
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Just a note to everyone please, and no one in particular - we are a community of friends, with a common interest.

There is a growing tendency toward sarcasm in some replies, when it would be far more pleasant for all if someone has made an error, (missed a particular posting for example), to simply give a link to that article or to the overlooked portion.

One sarcastic or discourteous reply often leads to another one in response, and the next thing it's a war of words between two people who at any other time could be happily enjoying some aspect of their shared hobby together.

And sometimes, the answers are easily found outside the forum - ie 'cocopans' - I got from the gist of the thread what they were, but I just googled it anyway to confirm;

cocopan in British (ˈkəʊkəʊˌpæn ) noun
(in South Africa) a small wagon running on narrow-gauge railway lines used in mines
Also called: hopper
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers
Word origin of 'cocopan'
C20: from Zulu 'ngkumbana short truck


So I've learnt something here also. It comes from a Zulu word, that's interesting. I quite like it. This remains an English-speaking forum, with plenty of words 'borrowed' from other languages to add flavour, and when those words are common or even unique to a particular region/country etc, and the person using the word is from the same region then the use is perfectly valid for context.

I was just quickly trying to think of a uniquely 'Kiwi' word for something railway-related but it escapes me for now.

RTFM BTW means "Read The Forgotten Manual" or any other relevant 'f' word that most easily fits your own vocabulary

I'll leave you to bring to mind and ponder the famous quote from Bambi, which I'm sure almost everyone already knows, having already been told it by their Mothers!!
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline PhillipL  
#23 Posted : 04 June 2019 00:20:44(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 103
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Just a note to everyone please, and no one in particular - we are a community of friends, with a common interest.

There is a growing tendency toward sarcasm in some replies, when it would be far more pleasant for all if someone has made an error, (missed a particular posting for example), to simply give a link to that article or to the overlooked portion.

One sarcastic or discourteous reply often leads to another one in response, and the next thing it's a war of words between two people who at any other time could be happily enjoying some aspect of their shared hobby together.

And sometimes, the answers are easily found outside the forum - ie 'cocopans' - I got from the gist of the thread what they were, but I just googled it anyway to confirm;

cocopan in British (ˈkəʊkəʊˌpæn ) noun
(in South Africa) a small wagon running on narrow-gauge railway lines used in mines
Also called: hopper
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers
Word origin of 'cocopan'
C20: from Zulu 'ngkumbana short truck


So I've learnt something here also. It comes from a Zulu word, that's interesting. I quite like it. This remains an English-speaking forum, with plenty of words 'borrowed' from other languages to add flavour, and when those words are common or even unique to a particular region/country etc, and the person using the word is from the same region then the use is perfectly valid for context.

I was just quickly trying to think of a uniquely 'Kiwi' word for something railway-related but it escapes me for now.

RTFM BTW means "Read The Forgotten Manual" or any other relevant 'f' word that most easily fits your own vocabulary

I'll leave you to bring to mind and ponder the famous quote from Bambi, which I'm sure almost everyone already knows, having already been told it by their Mothers!!


Okay, lets all do what we enjoy the most, run our wonderful Marklin trains! It is a hobby so there are no tests or chances to be fired. Off I go run my BR89 (my favorite loco) and some great freight cars including my dump car.
Offline Vanvlak  
#24 Posted : 04 June 2019 06:47:05(UTC)
Vanvlak

Malta   
Joined: 01/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Naxxar
Not sure whether I enjoyed most the linguistics, the conversion, the brass model, the silver colour one (there is one on ebay at the moment, whether it's original or not I cannot say - EDIT - NO, I think it's grey, not silver - sorry!) or the brown-painted ones, which look much better than the original red. The result is that as I had read this thread without the morning coffee having kicked in, I am now waiting for five of the things to be delivered...Blushing
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#25 Posted : 06 July 2019 21:40:58(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
Just found this on ebay, so not sure how long it will last, but Märklin seems to have had a version of the car in its Spur O range in 1910:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Marklin-...6daf3:g:tTMAAOSw~c1dHK3N

https://i.ebayimg.com/im...AOSwssRdHK3d/s-l1600.jpg

Drool

Jimmy

Edit: Sold 13 July 2019 after 49 bids: EUR 1.061,55 Blink

Edited by user 14 July 2019 18:14:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#26 Posted : 14 July 2019 18:11:42(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
And yet another possibility:

https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/ima.../bildergalerie/26753.jpg

"So auch dieser Schadwagen der RBD Stuttgart, der für die Zuckerrübenverladung benutzt wurde."
("So also this Schadwagen [from] the RBD Stuttgart, which was used for the sugar beet loading.")

Mellow with an upper ramp level for some 4413 from the outlying farms..."oh what a tangled web [I] weave" Unsure

Jimmy
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