 Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 123
|
I am just curious, is the dump car item 4413 a fantasy car or is it a model of an actual freight car?
|
 2 users liked this useful post by PhillipL
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
|
|
5 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
|
7 users liked this useful post by TEEWolf
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
|
I have three of these and I have also painted them brown, though in real life this type of wagon could be any colour, including "deep rust"   |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
|
12 users liked this useful post by RayF
|
Jimmy Thompson, Legless, DaleSchultz, Elsleuth1, PJMärklin, kimballthurlow, xxup, TEEWolf, amartinezv, Bigdaddynz, GaryTrooper, ixldoc
|
|
|
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 123
|
All,
Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time.
|
1 user liked this useful post by PhillipL
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,481 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: PhillipL  All,
Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time. It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways. Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made. Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets.
|
2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
this style of wagon is common in mining operations - but typically on small gauge track - as TEEWolf says - on Feldbahn operations.
|
|
2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
|
The metal framed version of this wagon was the 4513, which was in the catalogue until 1976. Around that time all 45xx wagons were being replaced by the all-plastic 44xx series, and in 1977 the 4413 appeared for the first time. The hopper itself was used also in the Minex narrow gauge range as a double unit, and this double unit also appeared in the Gauge 1 range. Minex - 4459  Gauge 1 - 5859  |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
|
4 users liked this useful post by RayF
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 418 Location: Ontario, Toronto
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: PhillipL All,
Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time. It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways. Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made. Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets. I have the version with the release latch to tip the tipper.
|
1 user liked this useful post by QQQ1970
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: PhillipL All,
Thank you for the information and photos! I have been trying to research the car and found very little information on any prototype but I did learn that it has been part of the Marklin line for a great deal of time. It has certainly changed a lot over time. I think the red tipper has always been plastic, but the end support pieces were originally metal. The very earliest ones had a little latch that you pulled up vertically to release the tipper so it will tip sideways. Later on there was some spring latch arrangement so the hand operated latch was no longer needed. Later the plastic support version that RayF has shown arrived on the scene - but I don't know just when this change was made. Of more recent time the tipper has been released in various colours, one of the Start Up add-on sets had three wagons with different coloured tippers, none of them red, IIRC there was blue, yellow and green. There have also been versions with a black tipper in some start sets. There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts.... .jpg "Start Set CM805/3 with Silver Tipper")   |
Cookee Wellington  |
5 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
I have a silver one, which I did not paint brown! |
|
1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
|
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz
There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts....
Hi Cookee, I only know and have cars made of black plastic, sprayed silver. I have never seen cars made of silver plastic. Regards Markus
|
1 user liked this useful post by Markus Schild
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels
|
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz this style of wagon is common in mining operations - but typically on small gauge track
In mining parlance it is called a cocopan, all over Southern Africa at least. The derivation of the word, for your trivial pursuit winner, is from the Nguni word nqukumbana. The Nguni languages include Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, and many others. N'jabez  PS. I had one in my first Maerklin set from Germany in 1948 or so. As I recall it was metal, painted red, and had a spring clip to release the pan. |
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams |
3 users liked this useful post by Jabez
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
Originally Posted by: Jabez In mining parlance it is called a cocopan, all over Southern Africa at least. The derivation of the word, for your trivial pursuit winner, is from the Nguni word nqukumbana. The Nguni languages include Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, and many others. N'jabez When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.) Plural would be Izingolovane. Sometimes the word is also used for a wheelbarrow. Now, the locative form ("place of ") of Izingolovane is Izingolweni, and in southern Natal there is a narrow gauge railway that used to be powered with steam garret locos and one of the stations is Izingolweni - the place of the little carts..... My grandfather, who worked at a colliery in the 1920s in SA, made a cocopan cart out of brass by hand. I took some pictures:   I forgot to measure, but I think the track is about 25mm wide. |
|
13 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
|
Bart, Markus Schild, Elsleuth1, Tom Jessop, TEEWolf, dickinsonj, Jimmy Thompson, Alsterstreek, Jabez, SteamNut, Chook, ixldoc, GlennM
|
|
|
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
|
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Originally Posted by: cookee_nz
There was also the Silver one from 1953 only, not painted but actual silver plastic - very hard to find by all accounts....
Hi Cookee, I only know and have cars made of black plastic, sprayed silver. I have never seen cars made of silver plastic. Regards Markus Thanks Markus, that may be my mistake, I was sure I read somewhere (Koll's ?) that they were hard to fake because the colour was in the plastic but appears I was wrong. Personally I've never seen any other than Red. Something to watch for. Thanks for the feedback |
Cookee Wellington |
1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels
|
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz
When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.)
Thanks for the expanded explanation. The word 'ingolovane' is clearly cognate to 'nqukumbana' with the 'ingola' bit represented by 'nquku' and 'vane' by 'bana', taking into account the phonetic representation of sound shifts between dialects/languages. The b/v shift occurs in some European languages, e.g. Habana/Havana. But I think I'll stick to cocopans Jabez |
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams |
2 users liked this useful post by Jabez
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: Jabez Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz
When I studied Zulu, I learned that they were called "ingolovane". Which is the diminutive of inqola which is a cart or small wagon. (Also means ant.)
Thanks for the expanded explanation. The word 'ingolovane' is clearly cognate to 'nqukumbana' with the 'ingola' bit represented by 'nquku' and 'vane' by 'bana', taking into account the phonetic representation of sound shifts between dialects/languages. The b/v shift occurs in some European languages, e.g. Habana/Havana. But I think I'll stick to cocopans Jabez Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are? I do not know.  So I stick a big Havana (cigar) in my mouth, smoking, dreaming and thinking when this will be an English speaking forum again. 
|
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
|
|
|
|
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf
Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are?
Well you would if you had read the whole thread instead of just the last post. RTFB or even in this case RTFT is always good advice.  |
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams |
1 user liked this useful post by Jabez
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: Jabez Originally Posted by: TEEWolf
Aha "I'll stick to cocopans" - does anybody know what cocopans are?
Well you would if you had read the whole thread instead of just the last post. RTFB or even in this case RTFT is always good advice. Oh I read the total thread. But not everytime a new post occurs. Also are my knowledge of - hm which language was it? - are very limited. I stay with the good Havanna, although I do not smoke. But please, may you complete our DoA https://www.marklin-user...y-of-Abbreviations/page3with RTFB and RTFT? Although you mentioned it in post #129 already, but did not explain it.  What use does a DoA have, if you do not write the full words beside the abbreviation? Or are you shy?
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Although you mentioned it in post #129 already, but did not explain it. What use does a DoA have, if you do not write the full words beside the abbreviation? Or are you shy? Have you read post #134 ?? https://www.marklin-user...Abbreviations#post591088Or is it that you just don't respect it ?? Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
What a wonderful series: I believe that the 2922 "Texas & Western" set had a silver one and the 82773 add-on set for mining had Gold, Silver, and Bronze (Copper) ones Quite 'Olympically' minded...  Jimmy Edited by user 26 May 2025 13:20:11(UTC)
| Reason: picture links broken |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
3 users liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
|
Just a note to everyone please, and no one in particular - we are a community of friends, with a common interest.
There is a growing tendency toward sarcasm in some replies, when it would be far more pleasant for all if someone has made an error, (missed a particular posting for example), to simply give a link to that article or to the overlooked portion.
One sarcastic or discourteous reply often leads to another one in response, and the next thing it's a war of words between two people who at any other time could be happily enjoying some aspect of their shared hobby together.
And sometimes, the answers are easily found outside the forum - ie 'cocopans' - I got from the gist of the thread what they were, but I just googled it anyway to confirm;
cocopan in British (ˈkəʊkəʊˌpæn ) noun
(in South Africa) a small wagon running on narrow-gauge railway lines used in mines
Also called: hopper
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers
Word origin of 'cocopan'
C20: from Zulu 'ngkumbana short truck
So I've learnt something here also. It comes from a Zulu word, that's interesting. I quite like it. This remains an English-speaking forum, with plenty of words 'borrowed' from other languages to add flavour, and when those words are common or even unique to a particular region/country etc, and the person using the word is from the same region then the use is perfectly valid for context.
I was just quickly trying to think of a uniquely 'Kiwi' word for something railway-related but it escapes me for now.
RTFM BTW means "Read The Forgotten Manual" or any other relevant 'f' word that most easily fits your own vocabulary
I'll leave you to bring to mind and ponder the famous quote from Bambi, which I'm sure almost everyone already knows, having already been told it by their Mothers!! |
Cookee Wellington |
5 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 123
|
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Just a note to everyone please, and no one in particular - we are a community of friends, with a common interest.
There is a growing tendency toward sarcasm in some replies, when it would be far more pleasant for all if someone has made an error, (missed a particular posting for example), to simply give a link to that article or to the overlooked portion.
One sarcastic or discourteous reply often leads to another one in response, and the next thing it's a war of words between two people who at any other time could be happily enjoying some aspect of their shared hobby together.
And sometimes, the answers are easily found outside the forum - ie 'cocopans' - I got from the gist of the thread what they were, but I just googled it anyway to confirm;
cocopan in British (ˈkəʊkəʊˌpæn ) noun
(in South Africa) a small wagon running on narrow-gauge railway lines used in mines
Also called: hopper
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers
Word origin of 'cocopan'
C20: from Zulu 'ngkumbana short truck
So I've learnt something here also. It comes from a Zulu word, that's interesting. I quite like it. This remains an English-speaking forum, with plenty of words 'borrowed' from other languages to add flavour, and when those words are common or even unique to a particular region/country etc, and the person using the word is from the same region then the use is perfectly valid for context.
I was just quickly trying to think of a uniquely 'Kiwi' word for something railway-related but it escapes me for now.
RTFM BTW means "Read The Forgotten Manual" or any other relevant 'f' word that most easily fits your own vocabulary
I'll leave you to bring to mind and ponder the famous quote from Bambi, which I'm sure almost everyone already knows, having already been told it by their Mothers!! Okay, lets all do what we enjoy the most, run our wonderful Marklin trains! It is a hobby so there are no tests or chances to be fired. Off I go run my BR89 (my favorite loco) and some great freight cars including my dump car.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 01/06/2019(UTC) Posts: 58 Location: Naxxar
|
Not sure whether I enjoyed most the linguistics, the conversion, the brass model, the silver colour one (there is one on ebay at the moment, whether it's original or not I cannot say - EDIT - NO, I think it's grey, not silver - sorry!) or the brown-painted ones, which look much better than the original red. The result is that as I had read this thread without the morning coffee having kicked in, I am now waiting for five of the things to be delivered... 
|
5 users liked this useful post by Vanvlak
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
|
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
1 user liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
And yet another possibility: https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/ima.../bildergalerie/26753.jpg "So auch dieser Schadwagen der RBD Stuttgart, der für die Zuckerrübenverladung benutzt wurde." ("So also this Schadwagen [from] the RBD Stuttgart, which was used for the sugar beet loading.")  with an upper ramp level for some 4413 from the outlying farms..."oh what a tangled web [I] weave"  Jimmy |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
It has taken me quite a while to realize I may have made a mistake in my post above with the 82773 Mining add-on set. The tippers in that set (and the Texas & Western set) are 4-axle cars (using the same bogies as Mother M's other US-aspect cars) without buffers for the US market... The 4413 is 2-axle. Sorry if this caused any other confusions. Edited by user 13 March 2023 11:48:29(UTC)
| Reason: (spelling error) |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
|
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
2 users liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Seattle area
|
Great find, Jimmy. Having a collection of 4413's, 4513's and various wine barrel cars I now know the consist of my layout's new wine train. Now to think of ways to fill the tippers with HO-scale grape clusters...
|
1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
Quote:ccranium wrote:
"Now to think of ways to fill the tippers with HO-scale grape clusters..." That's what I'm thinking!!! I have my Bordeaux wine barrel cars all lined up for the finished product...and... |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
ccranium, ...way back in the mists of time on the attached thread, Bigdaddynz mentioned that one of their club members made grapes from very small polysty balls... https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...ain-routes-and-vineyards The only small grape bunches (crafts/doll house) I have found are still too big (I think) approx. 1.4 cm x 2.4 cm, but perhaps it was a bumper crop this year?  However, hope springs eternal that someone may have a source (other than cutting the grapes off of the Busch Vineyard or off of the Preiser figures for Grape Harvest...the element of damage is pretty close on ultra-tiny things like that, I imagine... ) |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
1 user liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
And there is also the ÖBB KLVM set 28723 with a cement-gray color for Perlmooser Zementwerke (although I do reailze that most zementwerke products use covered hoppers or silowagen...there might be some items and raw materials that can be moved in open tippers...p. s. looking for the pics  ) https://marnan.eu/artikel/65503/...2-stoomlok-treinset.html All manner of possibilities with our 4413s Not sure if these tip or not (Heidelberger Zement in Kiefersfelden) - pretty close though:  |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 683 Location: London
|
Originally Posted by: Jimmy Thompson ...there might be some items and raw materials that can be moved in open tippers. Limestone.
|
1 user liked this useful post by Carim
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
...or scrap concrete to be recycled into aggregate perhaps, or ground finer to be reused at the zementwerke? Just ideas. |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
1 user liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
I just stumbled across this on Ian Holmes' Micro-layout Blog. Feldbahn again, but great history for this subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh6FQDt-P5w "In Dörentrup, sand and clay have been mined in several pits by Dörentruper Sand- und Tonwerken GmbH since the beginning of the 20th century. Electric field railways transported the sand and clay on a large, branched field railway network into the factory, where the materials were further processed in several departments. From 1969 onwards, field railway operations were mainly limited to internal transport within the factory premises, where they remained until the early 1980s. What was remarkable was the electric operation with mostly self-built, idiosyncratic electric locomotives and self-propelled dump trucks." And also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y4o9psvvcg |
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
3 users liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
|
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
1 user liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
|
|
|
|
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 328
|
|
Best regards
Martin |
2 users liked this useful post by 60904
|
|
|
|
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC) Posts: 758 Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
|
|
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; DDR; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything |
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
