 Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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hi Dale, I tested my regulators; input voltage 17.5V, output voltage 7.5V, without load. Below is the result: MP 1584 drew 0.3 mA Unkown chip (they erased the marking) drew 1.5 mA MP 2307 drew 2 mA MP 1484 drew 7 mA Out of 10 MP2307s, I got one which drew 40 mA and very hot quickly. This is quality control problem; it use bad inductor. I replaced the inductor, and it drew 5 mA (still a bit higher because I don't have better inductor). The inductor is very important to the efficiency. If your regulator drew more than 10mA without load, then most likely the inductor is low quality. Buying from eBay is always hit-and-miss, look at the photo below; the regulator at the top (MP1584) use better quality inductor than the rest (it was also more expensive than the rest). 
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 1 user liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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thanks so much Tiono, you have confirmed that I got a bad batch!
I now know to test each one before using !
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 Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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 I bought 5 of these. I guess I will have to test them. I might be lucky to have 2-3 that are ok. They didnt cost much and arrived here within 12 days. |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
2 users liked this useful post by dominator
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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So I decided to see what replacements I could buy - how can one guess which are good and which are bad.... I also looked at the MP1584 and found this: at https://www.amazon.com/e...RID=PZKF95G4Z57JPXFB1KQMthe 4th image has a note: Do not use without a load or a load < 10% of it rated output... and that would be 300mA! I am wondering of testing these without load could be destroying them ??? If the MP2307 modules have the same restriction then running a single strip using 0.5 to 1mA is going to be way too small a load also.... |
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 Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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The test results I showed a few posts before are measured on a MP1584 stepdown converter like yours. As you can see it worked down to no load without problems. Today I ordered stepdown converters using MP2307 and MP2315 and as soon as I receive them (from Spain, should be fast) I will test them the same way. I have already used converters using also MC34063 am L5470 and no one has ever had problems with light loads. Just efficiency is lower than at high load. For light loads I prefer using these linear regulators based on Holtek HT7533, fixed 3.3 V regulator used as variable regulator, I built myself.  Regards
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1 user liked this useful post by mario54i
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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In traditional electrical engineering, static state (as opposed to dynamic state ) is the current when the circuit has stabilized, as opposed to in a state change that has not stabilized. What 'static current' means, I'm not sure. I'm assuming / guessing it means that the regulator (when fed with input voltage in spec and producing an output voltage as set), itself uses 0.84mA as part of the regulation circuit (with the load being constant). |
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1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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yes I am hoping so also. I have sent them an email to ask what the consumption is. (That will also tell us how responsive they are as a company.)
I think I will try a set of these. |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz  If you compare the pictures, it's the same shown by dominator four posts before yours. It uses a MP2315 IC
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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true, they do look the same....
I have ordered some which should arrive Monday, I will test and report!
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz
So I decided to see what replacements I could buy - how can one guess which are good and which are bad....
Impossible to know the quality just by looking on the photo. But you may see the telltale sign. The important component in switching regulator which manufacturer sometimes cut-corner to lower the cost; is the inductor. Therefore try to guess (from the photo) whether the inductor is crappy or good. Inductor manufactured by well-established company usually has marking (value marking such as: 4R7, 100, 330, etc), the letters are crisp and clear, not blurry. Also look at the molding of the casing, whether it is as good as Marklin's metal body locomotive, or looks rough (some of dirt-cheap inductor does not even use molding, but merely sandwiched with ceramic plates and resin filling). Those dirt-cheap inductors never pass any quality control, so the result will vary widely, like playing jackpot, if you're lucky, you may get excellent quality on very low price. Look at the photo below. The inductors on three regulators on the left, were made by the same manufacturer, notice the sandwiched plates and same contact pin. These are cheap inductors. While the rightmost regulator use a good inductor, molded casing with crisp lettering. Those three regulators cost me less than $1 each, while the the good one cost me almost $2. 
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2 users liked this useful post by tiono
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,481 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: tiono
If your regulator drew more than 10mA without load, then most likely the inductor is low quality.
I have looked at the data sheets for the MP1584, MP2307 and MP2315, and any of these should work satisfactorily with no or minimum load, although the problem with these modules is probably that the module designers have worked on the basis of supplying maximum current (3A in all three cases) and used components best suited to that market. This may mean that the components are sub-optimal for very low currents (especially the inductor), not necessarily that the components are of low quality (although that can be a factor, especially for the capacitors). Another problem is very likely the layout of the printed circuit board. This can have a considerable effect on how the converter works as there can be some significant switching currents going where you don't want them, even under no load, which can produce the sort of effects being described in this thread.
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan
I have looked at the data sheets for the MP1584, MP2307 and MP2315, and any of these should work satisfactorily with no or minimum load, although the problem with these modules is probably that the module designers have worked on the basis of supplying maximum current (3A in all three cases) and used components best suited to that market. This may mean that the components are sub-optimal for very low currents (especially the inductor), not necessarily that the components are of low quality (although that can be a factor, especially for the capacitors).
Another problem is very likely the layout of the printed circuit board. This can have a considerable effect on how the converter works as there can be some significant switching currents going where you don't want them, even under no load, which can produce the sort of effects being described in this thread.
I purchased those cheap regulators from eBay. Whenever I got a regulator which became hot quickly and drew more than 10mA of idle current, then I replaced the inductor. It work fine then.
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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thanks, good info on trying to pick quality.... I have ordered 5 from droking as they company seems to be making good stuff and if they are good, we can order from the same place again! |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I got an email reply from droking already (a good sign) stating:
<in response to asking it it can run with no or small load>
If the output range of converter matches your load, it should be oK. Actual output current is decided by load, it is not adjustable.
(in response to power consumed with no load>
Quiescent current is around 0.85 mA.
so , I am feeling confident in this company so far... |
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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If I wanted to be able to run carriages on analogue as well as digital, what voltage regulator do you think I would need. The max output on my most powerful transformer puts out 29 V AC in the reverse circuit which equates to under 50 V DC.
Could this be done or would I need to have master carriages fro each system.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: dominator If I wanted to be able to run carriages on analogue as well as digital, what voltage regulator do you think I would need. The max output on my most powerful transformer puts out 29 V AC in the reverse circuit which equates to under 50 V DC.
Could this be done or would I need to have master carriages fro each system.
Dereck High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator. If the LED draw less than 15mA at 8V, then a fix-output linear voltage regulator will be the best. Example: ZXTR2108, very small, able to handle 60V DC, 0.5W max dissipation, output fix at 8V. But if you insist on using the tiny switching regulator from eBay, then must put an over-voltage protection circuit at its input. The protection circuit consist of just three components: a transistor, resistor, and zener diode. (See picture below)  Assuming total current of LED + regulator is less than 15mA. ZD1 = 18V zener, 1N4746 R = 3K3 ohm TR1 = small signal transistor with max dissipation 600mW, Vce higher than 50V. e.g.: 2N5551 or MPSA43
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1 user liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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Thanks Tiono. I imagine that Zener diode might need a heat sink. We have large ones of those on our old British motorcycles. A nice simple circuit. I did look at some buck regulators and the ideal one for the 50 v was a wee bit big at 43x30x12 mm . The ac/dc ones didn't have the capacity either. I think the buck regulators I got might be a bit on the small side but not expensive so something else to play around with in the future. |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: dominator I imagine that Zener diode might need a heat sink. The zener is 1N4746 which is rated 1W max dissipation, does not need heat sink, small size. There is small buck regulator which is able to accept 55V input, but apparently nobody sell the completed module on eBay. If you would like to make a pcb and solder the component by yourself, then may consider MP4560. This chip is small, max input 55V. The completed module can be as small as those low-voltage buck regulators sold on eBay.
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,481 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: tiono
High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.
It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously. There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus.
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Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: tiono
High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.
It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously. There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus. like this LM5164 (ACTIVE) 6-V to 100-V input, 1-A synchronous buck DC-DC converter with ultra-low IQ
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I presume that the lower voltage buck converters could be used (in the 'load' area) of the overvoltage circuit provided by tiono.
i.e. we don't need a high voltage buck converter.
If so we could see three modules:
a) over voltage protection (for analog usage)
b) rectifier and DC converter
c) anti flicker module
These could be combined as needed to feed almost any desired DC voltage down the train.
Edit: I see that the over voltage circuit is designed around an 8V output which would suggest that we no longer need the DC-DC converter....
But... one advantage of the converter is that it manages to maintain the output as the input drops (due to loss of contact and the anti-flicker capacitor losing voltage)
So perhaps the analog spike circuit should aim at putting out 18V rather than 8, and then we run that through a mini DC-DC converter, this allows the capacitor to obtain a charge high enough to provide a voltage to the DC-DC converter during short periods of power loss
If the input is just 8 Volts the capacitor will only supply a maximum of 8V and the lights will go dim during moments of power loss. |
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: tiono
High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.
It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously. There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus. Of course there are many chip which able to handle more than 50V. But I understand that the context of conversation is; We do not want to make the module ourselves, instead we are looking to purchase the completed, ready-to-use module of those chip (which cheap and small enough to be inside passenger carriage. The size and cost reference were on previous message in this thread). If somebody willing to make pcb and do soldering, then I have already suggested to use MP4560 chip, which can be assembled in small module.
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1 user liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I have added some more thoughts to my earlier post about how the analog spike circuit could be used. |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I am pleased to report good results from the 5 Droking modules that arrived today. They arrived well packaged, with a small data sheet printed in color and a card saying to contact them if there are any issues.  The 5 modules are in a single strip and each one can be separated easily with a bit of bending.  The inductors are marked: 4.7uH 1629NY  These modules are in fact even smaller than the MP2307 based mini DC-DC converters I initially tried. (Drok on left and MP2307 on the right)  Test resultswith 17.5 Volts inputno load 10V output (default as shipped): 0.79mAno load 7.5V output: 0.71mA12 LED strip 0.41mA load @ 7.49 Volts 1.25mA! Those measurement match their consumption rating of 0.85mA plus the 0.4mA load -> 1.25mA I have only tested one so far, but these, and the company, look like a winner! We essentially have a solution that consumes about 0.5mA per lighted coach with an overhead of about 0.85mA per train! Edit: these cost $8.99 for 5 from amazon.com and arrived in 2 days. So $1.80 cost per pickup shoe. |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz
We essentially have a solution that consumes about 0.5mA per lighted coach with an overhead of about 0.85mA per train!
Edit: these cost $8.99 for 5 from amazon.com and arrived in 2 days. So $1.80 cost per pickup shoe.
Finally you found a solution. Seems as the Droking regulator use MP2315 chip and good inductor (probably Vishay 4.7uH IHLP-4040ED-5A). Can I conclude the following: - buying cheap regulators from eBay most likely will get lower efficiency than it should. - good regulator will not be the cheapest ( less than $1 from eBay versus more than $1 from Droking) - good low voltage buck regulator shall draw idle current (without load) of less than 1mA (I have regulator module which consume only 0.3mA) My personal standard: < 1mA = good 1mA to 10mA = not so good but still usable > 10mA = not good/low quality, will heat up quickly well, I will purchase some from Droking as well.
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1 user liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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yes I agree with all your conclusions.
I have some 1.25" JST connectors on their way and will see what they are like when they get here |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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found another stepdown regulator board from Banggoodlooks smaller, uses another IC, a Richtek RT8272 regards
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Those are solid conclusions. Low cost factories tend to use the lowers cost components to save a few pennies, but in some components: capacitors and inductors for example, saving a $ or 2 degrades the performance and reliability. Its saving in the wrong place to hit a price target. Looks like these are a winner. Question: I think I see the point with selecting the voltage by bridging it via solder to the output pad one can solder a wire to more easily, but the cutting of the adjustable voltage trace isn't clear. Can this only output one voltage or rather, if you want a fixed voltage, do you cut that trace to take the varistor out of the circuit? ![71iVp1ZZeYL._SL1500_[1].jpg](/forum/resource.ashx?p=51821&b=1 "71iVp1ZZeYL._SL1500_[1].jpg") -image: amazon.com product listing |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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yes, by cutting the trace, I believe it removes the variable resistor. By bridging one of the other options, you include a resistor that sets the output voltage exactly.
It would be nice if 9V was just right, but I find 9V is even too bright.... |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: mario54i found another stepdown regulator board from Banggoodlooks smaller, uses another IC, a Richtek RT8272 but 10x more expensive! |
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Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz
but 10x more expensive!
I see 20pcs 4.75V-24V To 0.92V-15V DC-DC Adjustable Power Supply Buck Converter Step Down Module at 20 USD
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1 user liked this useful post by mario54i
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: mario54i
I see
20pcs 4.75V-24V To 0.92V-15V DC-DC Adjustable Power Supply Buck Converter Step Down Module
at 20 USD
ah, yes I am sorry, I totally missed that, thinking it was for just one! silly me! |
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Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 303 Location: Torino,
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Regulators using MP2303 and 2315 arrived, two samples each. Look like yours.
The first ones at power up caused the power supply to trip, too much inrush current. I had to raise the current limit to 130 mA to have them working. Then supply current at no load was 10-15 mA for both. At least voltage was settable and stable.
I would say the inductor was heating.
The second ones worked better, no inrush current problems. Only 0.3 mA of no load current, but only one one worked correctly, the other was not settable well.
Tomorrow I'll test them more deeply
regards
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2 users liked this useful post by mario54i
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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Success in a round about way. After looking at Lewistrain's topic https://www.marklin-user...nd-remote-control--ROUGH Thanks Lewis and reading all here, I have used both to achieve a good result with my tin plate coaches. Remote testing so far.  Bridge rectifier, Buck converter input 8-55v to 12v output  the Buck Converter used  coach with pickup and connectors. i have used three wire connectors in case I want to use earth pickups from every coach.  LED lightsd in coach plus LED remote testing    I have used the above Buck Converter with the idea that the coaches can then run on the digital track or the analogue track. The remote allows the lights to be switched on and off as well as dimmed [ plus other unnecessary modes ]. Lewis came up with this idea and it answered my question about turning lights on and off. All the materials were purchased at very low cost, and they allow me to make things work, which to me, is part of the enjoyment of the hobby. I will look at fitting capacitors in each coach, attached to the LED ribbon. Its been a while getting this sorted, and just have to work out the best way to run the wiring. I have even been thinking about fitting the power supplies in some of the larger analogue steam engines tenders, but that is for the future.  Dereck Edited by user 13 September 2019 00:17:41(UTC)
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Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
3 users liked this useful post by dominator
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Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
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I am lost here amongst all of the in depth discussions. Can I ask a "simple" question then.
I want to power an LED strip in a coach from a slider. Can you summarise all of the above so that I can grasp this?
I did study electronics but in 1975 so I am a bit out of date- grin. |
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid I am lost here amongst all of the in depth discussions. Can I ask a "simple" question then.
I want to power an LED strip in a coach from a slider. Can you summarise all of the above so that I can grasp this?
I did study electronics but in 1975 so I am a bit out of date- grin. Well, if simplicity is the only goal, then I guess using 24 Volt LED strip and single diode will do the trick. It will flicker. They may be too bright. |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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When have finished my testing, I do plan on writing up the optimal solution.
(low current draw, flicker free, cheap) |
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Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid I am lost here amongst all of the in depth discussions. Can I ask a "simple" question then.
I want to power an LED strip in a coach from a slider. Can you summarise all of the above so that I can grasp this?
I did study electronics but in 1975 so I am a bit out of date- grin. Well, if simplicity is the only goal, then I guess using 24 Volt LED strip and single diode will do the trick. It will flicker. They may be too bright. That I can do without help! |
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie |
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid I am lost here amongst all of the in depth discussions. Can I ask a "simple" question then.
I want to power an LED strip in a coach from a slider. Can you summarise all of the above so that I can grasp this?
I did study electronics but in 1975 so I am a bit out of date- grin. The summary of all that is that he's getting the track power, then sending it through a circuit that regulates/controls the voltage at a much lower than 'track' DC level, to very efficiently power the LED lighting he's installing, and he's routing the power from car to car via couplers. The voltage is matched to the LED and other diodes to get reliable operations even across short track power interruptions (dirt, slider disconnect) |
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Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
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Originally Posted by: Minok Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid I am lost here amongst all of the in depth discussions. Can I ask a "simple" question then.
I want to power an LED strip in a coach from a slider. Can you summarise all of the above so that I can grasp this?
I did study electronics but in 1975 so I am a bit out of date- grin. The summary of all that is that he's getting the track power, then sending it through a circuit that regulates/controls the voltage at a much lower than 'track' DC level, to very efficiently power the LED lighting he's installing, and he's routing the power from car to car via couplers. The voltage is matched to the LED and other diodes to get reliable operations even across short track power interruptions (dirt, slider disconnect) I rather hoped that someone would list the components required. |
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid
I rather hoped that someone would list the components required.
when complete, I will do just that.... |
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2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid
I rather hoped that someone would list the components required.
when complete, I will do just that.... Thank you. |
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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Current conducting couplers are cheaper when you make your own. I like the idea of being able to uncouple the coaches easily if needed. Even my tin plate couches are easily uncoupled as a result of the 1.25 Jc 2 pin socket connectors. The DC-DC converters I bought were useless so went for the micro bridge rectifiers, 2 x 1000UF capacitors and resistors instead . I dont get any flickering at all. Time consuming but very worthwhile. See my post under HO.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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yes, being able to uncouple them is nice. I may yet experiment with tiny plugs if I find the whole train stuff is unmanageable. I wonder if the plugs could somehow be merged with the 3D printed permanent couplers....
I think I did see your post - nice work.
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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They have magnetically bound current conducting couplers as well, but as you said, its not free at $15 a coupling if its an EU export. Getting them direct from the China factory is probably cheaper. For what they are I'd think they could be sold direct from China for $5. https://meisesmobacenter...stromfuehrend-2-stk.html |
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1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,977 Location: CA, USA
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Hi Dale! Well done! This is exactly the sort of solution I've been dreaming of. I seemed to have gotten the concept 75% right on my own, but botched a few ideas along the way. A few small questions for you if you don't mind, regarding the DC-DC converter method: 1- Do I read correctly that they can be turned on or off? (usage case: I normally run digital, but one day want to run the consist on analogue and not have the lighting go crazy or burn out. Simply turn the lights off via the converter and I'm good?) 2- you mention the converter having a pot for dimming. In a usage case with a 5 car consist, if I added or deleted a car or two, I could simply adjust the pot, correct? As opposed to the resistor method where consist length cannot be altered? If both those scenarios work out, these are worth the extra money to go that route on my end. I'm excited to give it a go this winter, possibly even converting the whole fleet! |
SBB Era 2-5 |
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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Hi Dale. The plugs do need a wee bit if effort to plug together or unplug, so maybe might not be able to be integrated withe the 3D printed couplers. That is beyond my capabilities though. For what little they cost, and the limited number of times I remove them, its worth it.
Those magnet ones do look good Minok but at NZ $21.70 per pair [ U S $15.00 ] , that's more than some of my coaches cost.
I enjoy the challenge of what I have done so far and I guess that's part of the hobby. I have made a few purchasing stuff ups though but its peanuts really compared to the Marklin values in general.
Well done Dale. I have followed your posts closely when I have had time. You put a lot of effort into them, and it's obvious you enjoy what you are doing. Keep up the good work.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
1 user liked this useful post by dominator
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