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Offline tiono  
#151 Posted : 11 July 2019 08:58:11(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
hi Dale,

I tested my regulators; input voltage 17.5V, output voltage 7.5V, without load. Below is the result:

MP 1584 drew 0.3 mA
Unkown chip (they erased the marking) drew 1.5 mA
MP 2307 drew 2 mA
MP 1484 drew 7 mA

Out of 10 MP2307s, I got one which drew 40 mA and very hot quickly. This is quality control problem; it use bad inductor. I replaced the inductor, and it drew 5 mA (still a bit higher because I don't have better inductor). The inductor is very important to the efficiency.
If your regulator drew more than 10mA without load, then most likely the inductor is low quality.
Buying from eBay is always hit-and-miss, look at the photo below; the regulator at the top (MP1584) use better quality inductor than the rest (it was also more expensive than the rest).



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Offline DaleSchultz  
#152 Posted : 11 July 2019 15:26:27(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
thanks so much Tiono, you have confirmed that I got a bad batch!

I now know to test each one before using !
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dominator  
#153 Posted : 12 July 2019 04:08:01(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 728
Location: Kerikeri
s-l1600 buck converter.jpgI bought 5 of these.

I guess I will have to test them. I might be lucky to have 2-3 that are ok. They didnt cost much and arrived here within 12 days.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#154 Posted : 12 July 2019 17:27:13(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032

So I decided to see what replacements I could buy - how can one guess which are good and which are bad....

I also looked at the MP1584 and found this:

at https://www.amazon.com/e...RID=PZKF95G4Z57JPXFB1KQM

the 4th image has a note: Do not use without a load or a load < 10% of it rated output... and that would be 300mA!

I am wondering of testing these without load could be destroying them ???

If the MP2307 modules have the same restriction then running a single strip using 0.5 to 1mA is going to be way too small a load also....

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mario54i  
#155 Posted : 12 July 2019 18:59:57(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
The test results I showed a few posts before are measured on a MP1584 stepdown converter like yours. As you can see it worked down to no load without problems.
Today I ordered stepdown converters using MP2307 and MP2315 and as soon as I receive them (from Spain, should be fast) I will test them the same way.
I have already used converters using also MC34063 am L5470 and no one has ever had problems with light loads. Just efficiency is lower than at high load.

For light loads I prefer using these linear regulators based on Holtek HT7533, fixed 3.3 V regulator used as variable regulator, I built myself.







Regards

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Offline DaleSchultz  
#156 Posted : 12 July 2019 19:04:19(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
A very interesting read on the MP2307 at

http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2017/06/17/small-switch-mode-psu-module-mps-mp2307-fail/

People have been finding the same issues, too hot, and too much current....

One suggestion is that a new batch was ok with '100' stamped on the coil.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#157 Posted : 12 July 2019 19:44:11(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
anyone tried these ?

they also look nice and small; 11mm x 20.5mm

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0758ZTS61/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AFHAE9RJVUMB&psc=1

Its claims:
Static Current: 0.85mA

Does that mean the no load current consumption?

The company is Hong Kong based but least they have a web site!
https://www.droking.com/5-pcs-lot-mini-power-supply-module-car-adapter-dc-4.5-24v-to-5v-3a-buck-converter-adjustable-voltage-regulator-driver-module-charger
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Minok  
#158 Posted : 12 July 2019 20:21:19(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,975
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
In traditional electrical engineering, static state (as opposed to dynamic state ) is the current when the circuit has stabilized, as opposed to in a state change that has not stabilized. What 'static current' means, I'm not sure. I'm assuming / guessing it means that the regulator (when fed with input voltage in spec and producing an output voltage as set), itself uses 0.84mA as part of the regulation circuit (with the load being constant).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#159 Posted : 12 July 2019 20:51:53(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
yes I am hoping so also. I have sent them an email to ask what the consumption is. (That will also tell us how responsive they are as a company.)

I think I will try a set of these.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline mario54i  
#160 Posted : 12 July 2019 21:15:22(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
anyone tried these ?

they also look nice and small; 11mm x 20.5mm

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0758ZTS61/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AFHAE9RJVUMB&psc=1



If you compare the pictures, it's the same shown by dominator four posts before yours. It uses a MP2315 IC
Offline DaleSchultz  
#161 Posted : 12 July 2019 21:22:45(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
true, they do look the same....
I have ordered some which should arrive Monday, I will test and report!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline tiono  
#162 Posted : 13 July 2019 04:40:24(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

So I decided to see what replacements I could buy - how can one guess which are good and which are bad....


Impossible to know the quality just by looking on the photo. But you may see the telltale sign. The important component in switching regulator which manufacturer sometimes cut-corner to lower the cost; is the inductor. Therefore try to guess (from the photo) whether the inductor is crappy or good.
Inductor manufactured by well-established company usually has marking (value marking such as: 4R7, 100, 330, etc), the letters are crisp and clear, not blurry.
Also look at the molding of the casing, whether it is as good as Marklin's metal body locomotive, or looks rough (some of dirt-cheap inductor does not even use molding, but merely sandwiched with ceramic plates and resin filling). Those dirt-cheap inductors never pass any quality control, so the result will vary widely, like playing jackpot, if you're lucky, you may get excellent quality on very low price.
Look at the photo below. The inductors on three regulators on the left, were made by the same manufacturer, notice the sandwiched plates and same contact pin. These are cheap inductors. While the rightmost regulator use a good inductor, molded casing with crisp lettering. Those three regulators cost me less than $1 each, while the the good one cost me almost $2.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#163 Posted : 13 July 2019 11:52:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,367
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post

If your regulator drew more than 10mA without load, then most likely the inductor is low quality.


I have looked at the data sheets for the MP1584, MP2307 and MP2315, and any of these should work satisfactorily with no or minimum load, although the problem with these modules is probably that the module designers have worked on the basis of supplying maximum current (3A in all three cases) and used components best suited to that market. This may mean that the components are sub-optimal for very low currents (especially the inductor), not necessarily that the components are of low quality (although that can be a factor, especially for the capacitors).

Another problem is very likely the layout of the printed circuit board. This can have a considerable effect on how the converter works as there can be some significant switching currents going where you don't want them, even under no load, which can produce the sort of effects being described in this thread.

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Offline tiono  
#164 Posted : 13 July 2019 14:22:12(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

I have looked at the data sheets for the MP1584, MP2307 and MP2315, and any of these should work satisfactorily with no or minimum load, although the problem with these modules is probably that the module designers have worked on the basis of supplying maximum current (3A in all three cases) and used components best suited to that market. This may mean that the components are sub-optimal for very low currents (especially the inductor), not necessarily that the components are of low quality (although that can be a factor, especially for the capacitors).

Another problem is very likely the layout of the printed circuit board. This can have a considerable effect on how the converter works as there can be some significant switching currents going where you don't want them, even under no load, which can produce the sort of effects being described in this thread.


I purchased those cheap regulators from eBay. Whenever I got a regulator which became hot quickly and drew more than 10mA of idle current, then I replaced the inductor. It work fine then.


Offline DaleSchultz  
#165 Posted : 13 July 2019 15:55:16(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
thanks, good info on trying to pick quality.... I have ordered 5 from droking as they company seems to be making good stuff and if they are good, we can order from the same place again!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#166 Posted : 14 July 2019 19:16:30(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I got an email reply from droking already (a good sign) stating:

<in response to asking it it can run with no or small load>

If the output range of converter matches your load, it should be oK. Actual output current is decided by load, it is not adjustable.

(in response to power consumed with no load>

Quiescent current is around 0.85 mA.


so , I am feeling confident in this company so far...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dominator  
#167 Posted : 15 July 2019 01:05:29(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 728
Location: Kerikeri
If I wanted to be able to run carriages on analogue as well as digital, what voltage regulator do you think I would need. The max output on my most powerful transformer puts out 29 V AC in the reverse circuit which equates to under 50 V DC.

Could this be done or would I need to have master carriages fro each system.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline tiono  
#168 Posted : 15 July 2019 05:37:19(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
If I wanted to be able to run carriages on analogue as well as digital, what voltage regulator do you think I would need. The max output on my most powerful transformer puts out 29 V AC in the reverse circuit which equates to under 50 V DC.

Could this be done or would I need to have master carriages fro each system.

Dereck


High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.
If the LED draw less than 15mA at 8V, then a fix-output linear voltage regulator will be the best. Example: ZXTR2108, very small, able to handle 60V DC, 0.5W max dissipation, output fix at 8V.
But if you insist on using the tiny switching regulator from eBay, then must put an over-voltage protection circuit at its input. The protection circuit consist of just three components: a transistor, resistor, and zener diode. (See picture below)

http://www.jirvine.co.uk/Electronics/EL_Tut_14/Images/reg_04.gif

Assuming total current of LED + regulator is less than 15mA.
ZD1 = 18V zener, 1N4746
R = 3K3 ohm
TR1 = small signal transistor with max dissipation 600mW, Vce higher than 50V. e.g.: 2N5551 or MPSA43
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Offline dominator  
#169 Posted : 15 July 2019 06:51:23(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 728
Location: Kerikeri
Thanks Tiono. I imagine that Zener diode might need a heat sink. We have large ones of those on our old British motorcycles. A nice simple circuit. I did look at some buck regulators and the ideal one for the 50 v was a wee bit big at 43x30x12 mm . The ac/dc ones didn't have the capacity either. I think the buck regulators I got might be a bit on the small side but not expensive so something else to play around with in the future.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline tiono  
#170 Posted : 15 July 2019 08:05:32(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
I imagine that Zener diode might need a heat sink.


The zener is 1N4746 which is rated 1W max dissipation, does not need heat sink, small size.
There is small buck regulator which is able to accept 55V input, but apparently nobody sell the completed module on eBay.
If you would like to make a pcb and solder the component by yourself, then may consider MP4560. This chip is small, max input 55V. The completed module can be as small as those low-voltage buck regulators sold on eBay.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#171 Posted : 15 July 2019 14:42:43(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,367
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post

High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.


It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously.

There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus.

Offline mario54i  
#172 Posted : 15 July 2019 15:46:37(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post

High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.


It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously.

There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus.



like this
LM5164 (ACTIVE) 6-V to 100-V input, 1-A synchronous buck DC-DC converter with ultra-low IQ

Offline DaleSchultz  
#173 Posted : 15 July 2019 16:52:11(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I presume that the lower voltage buck converters could be used (in the 'load' area) of the overvoltage circuit provided by tiono.

i.e. we don't need a high voltage buck converter.

If so we could see three modules:

a) over voltage protection (for analog usage)
b) rectifier and DC converter
c) anti flicker module

These could be combined as needed to feed almost any desired DC voltage down the train.

Edit: I see that the over voltage circuit is designed around an 8V output which would suggest that we no longer need the DC-DC converter....
But... one advantage of the converter is that it manages to maintain the output as the input drops (due to loss of contact and the anti-flicker capacitor losing voltage)

So perhaps the analog spike circuit should aim at putting out 18V rather than 8, and then we run that through a mini DC-DC converter, this allows the capacitor to obtain a charge high enough to provide a voltage to the DC-DC converter during short periods of power loss

If the input is just 8 Volts the capacitor will only supply a maximum of 8V and the lights will go dim during moments of power loss.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline tiono  
#174 Posted : 15 July 2019 17:00:06(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post

High voltage switching regulator is probably too big to be put inside a passenger carriage, so most likely you have to use linear regulator.


It should be possible to get a switching regulator to handle that input without being any larger than the modules discussed previously.

There are suitable switching regulator chips available, many of them designed for the automotive market, which is tending towards higher voltages than the 12V that has been used for years, there is now a common standard 48V bus, and there are switching regulators designed for this that will handle the switching spikes that will exist on this bus.



Of course there are many chip which able to handle more than 50V.
But I understand that the context of conversation is;
We do not want to make the module ourselves, instead we are looking to purchase the completed, ready-to-use module of those chip (which cheap and small enough to be inside passenger carriage. The size and cost reference were on previous message in this thread).

If somebody willing to make pcb and do soldering, then I have already suggested to use MP4560 chip, which can be assembled in small module.



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Offline DaleSchultz  
#175 Posted : 15 July 2019 20:10:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I have added some more thoughts to my earlier post about how the analog spike circuit could be used.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#176 Posted : 16 July 2019 03:41:35(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
I am pleased to report good results from the 5 Droking modules that arrived today.

They arrived well packaged, with a small data sheet printed in color and a card saying to contact them if there are any issues.

IMG_20190715_205403.jpg

The 5 modules are in a single strip and each one can be separated easily with a bit of bending.
IMG_20190715_205418.jpg
The inductors are marked: 4.7uH 1629NY
IMG_20190715_205427.jpg

These modules are in fact even smaller than the MP2307 based mini DC-DC converters I initially tried.
(Drok on left and MP2307 on the right)
IMG_20190715_205603.jpg

Test results

with 17.5 Volts input

no load 10V output (default as shipped): 0.79mA
no load 7.5V output: 0.71mA

12 LED strip 0.41mA load @ 7.49 Volts 1.25mA!

Those measurement match their consumption rating of 0.85mA plus the 0.4mA load -> 1.25mA

I have only tested one so far, but these, and the company, look like a winner!

We essentially have a solution that consumes about 0.5mA per lighted coach with an overhead of about 0.85mA per train!


Edit: these cost $8.99 for 5 from amazon.com and arrived in 2 days. So $1.80 cost per pickup shoe.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline tiono  
#177 Posted : 16 July 2019 04:51:44(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

We essentially have a solution that consumes about 0.5mA per lighted coach with an overhead of about 0.85mA per train!
Edit: these cost $8.99 for 5 from amazon.com and arrived in 2 days. So $1.80 cost per pickup shoe.


Finally you found a solution. Seems as the Droking regulator use MP2315 chip and good inductor (probably Vishay 4.7uH IHLP-4040ED-5A).

Can I conclude the following:
- buying cheap regulators from eBay most likely will get lower efficiency than it should.
- good regulator will not be the cheapest ( less than $1 from eBay versus more than $1 from Droking)
- good low voltage buck regulator shall draw idle current (without load) of less than 1mA (I have regulator module which consume only 0.3mA)
My personal standard:
< 1mA = good
1mA to 10mA = not so good but still usable
> 10mA = not good/low quality, will heat up quickly

well, I will purchase some from Droking as well.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#178 Posted : 16 July 2019 19:13:08(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
yes I agree with all your conclusions.

I have some 1.25" JST connectors on their way and will see what they are like when they get here
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline mario54i  
#179 Posted : 16 July 2019 20:48:31(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
found another stepdown regulator board from Banggood

looks smaller, uses another IC, a Richtek RT8272

regards


Offline Minok  
#180 Posted : 16 July 2019 21:02:19(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,975
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Those are solid conclusions. Low cost factories tend to use the lowers cost components to save a few pennies, but in some components: capacitors and inductors for example, saving a $ or 2 degrades the performance and reliability. Its saving in the wrong place to hit a price target. Looks like these are a winner.


Question:
I think I see the point with selecting the voltage by bridging it via solder to the output pad one can solder a wire to more easily, but the cutting of the adjustable voltage trace isn't clear. Can this only output one voltage or rather, if you want a fixed voltage, do you cut that trace to take the varistor out of the circuit?

71iVp1ZZeYL._SL1500_[1].jpg
-image: amazon.com product listing
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#181 Posted : 16 July 2019 21:48:40(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
yes, by cutting the trace, I believe it removes the variable resistor. By bridging one of the other options, you include a resistor that sets the output voltage exactly.

It would be nice if 9V was just right, but I find 9V is even too bright....
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#182 Posted : 16 July 2019 21:52:10(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
found another stepdown regulator board from Banggood

looks smaller, uses another IC, a Richtek RT8272



but 10x more expensive!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mario54i  
#183 Posted : 17 July 2019 09:27:01(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post


but 10x more expensive!


I see

20pcs 4.75V-24V To 0.92V-15V DC-DC Adjustable Power Supply Buck Converter Step Down Module

at 20 USD

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Offline DaleSchultz  
#184 Posted : 17 July 2019 14:26:56(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,032
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post

I see

20pcs 4.75V-24V To 0.92V-15V DC-DC Adjustable Power Supply Buck Converter Step Down Module

at 20 USD



ah, yes I am sorry, I totally missed that, thinking it was for just one! silly me!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mario54i  
#185 Posted : 18 July 2019 21:51:14(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Torino,
Regulators using MP2303 and 2315 arrived, two samples each. Look like yours.
The first ones at power up caused the power supply to trip, too much inrush current. I had to raise the current limit to 130 mA to have them working. Then supply current at no load was 10-15 mA for both. At least voltage was settable and stable.
I would say the inductor was heating.
The second ones worked better, no inrush current problems. Only 0.3 mA of no load current, but only one one worked correctly, the other was not settable well.
Tomorrow I'll test them more deeply

regards



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