Are there differing revision levels of the compact C-Sine, as Lutz seems to infer with his differing versions of the 39120 E10. My 39120 is about 6 months old, is that likely to have the lastest version, and should I worry about having it upgraded? What about new engines available for purchase, such as the 39010 BR01? Do they have the latest versions, and how can you tell what version they are. Should we not buy any compact C-Sine locos, but wait for new SDS versions?

Thanks Torbjörn.

If it doesn't have the red sticker in the box, then it isn't a SDS.

Well, no correction from me. This is how I also understand it.

But, what confuses me is that Lutz says that his 39120 bought in June (?) 2007 also had "the new motor". This, as I understand it, means that this "later" 39120 actually was equipped with the new SDS-engine.
Lutz can you help us out! Was this the case? (And if so, did it have the "red sticker"?)

/Torbjörn

Hello again

Regarding the spare parts list for model 39120 and 39121, the motor has the same part number
so the motor itself is actually the same in both models [:I] I don't know about the loco in 26540

As I did know this is why I asked the question
So if my 39120 has the same motor as the 39121 AND it should have the new electronics pcb it should be like a SDS model Strange [}:)]

Confused?? I certainly am!!

Serial Numbers and a 'Good' or 'Bad' indication would be the way to go.

Yes Pål, it is confusing... But in line with what we "suspected" and what Lutz explained above you have a 100% SDS-model. But without the "red sticker"... ("Second version" 39120, 39121 and E10 from 26540 have the same motors and driver PCBs but all three have different decoders.)
The fact that there are different "versions" probably explains, to a part, why some have trouble with their locos and others have not.

And thanks Lutz for your postings. With the help of your earlier pictures of the 39120 PCBs, I've been able to verify my own 39120 as being from the "second release". So no need for an upgrade...
But I also own 39420, 39010, the VT08 and the HWZ... I wonder if there also are "second versions" of these models
Definitely not of the HWZ, maybe of the last batch of the VT08 and surely the last produced batches of the 39420 and 39010 are "second versions". So how can I tell which version I've got? After all, we can't expect Lutz to publish pictures of all these different versions. Although it sure would be nice if he could.

But it's of course Märklin who (on their site) should clearly (with pictures) tell us how to see the difference between the two versions!

I understand that for many people out there this isn't a big question. The rather few comments to this thread also implies that. After all, if your models runs alright, why bother.
But many of us are collectors who just test our locos briefly before putting them back in the box. And, as so many others, I dream about that huge layout that I will build some day (and it will happen[:p]). Not until then will I have plenty of boosters and eight trains running simultaneous... So the problems might be "hidden" from me until that day. And by then it might be too late to change the PCB because it will probably be hard to get hold on. And even if it will be available it costs already today 99 euros...[B)]
And is it "now or never"? If I don't "upgrade" them today, will Märklin do it for me in two or three years time?
And just the fact that Lutz is having some of his models "upgraded" is reason enough for me to do the same...

So while I appreciate the unique info you often give us in your postings Lutz, I can't agree with you in your blind admiration of Märklin. You are correct when you say this is no safety issue. But even if Märklin is not obliged to say anything officially about this, I still think they should.
As already mentioned I was very happy with the "treatment" I received when I called directly to Märklin. But if they say that I can leave my locos to my dealer and the dealer then replies that he will not accept them since he has heard nothing about all this, I am left "hanging" as a customer.
And since most of us are very loyal "Märklinists" we deserve better!

And even if we have the option to send the locos directly to Märklin or leaving them at the "Erlebnisswelt", it would be nice to understand how to separate the different "versions". My 39120 clearly already was "updated" but I wouldn't have known that without Lutz pictures. And the 39420 I've recently got back from Märklin after eleven months, is that updated? And to whom at Märkllin should I send my locos? Is it enough with "Märklin Göppingen"?

So once again I fail to understand why Märklin can't post some simple guidelines on their site!

I still believe that Märklin will come with some sort of "official statement" about this issue. If not on their site, so at least in a message to the dealers. Anything else would be a scandal!

/Torbjörn

Hi Lutz and everyone else!


That's why I said "to a part". But how do you define "much less"? Clearly a 39120 of the "first generation" (compact c-sinus) will show problems under certain circumstances while one from the "second generation" (in fact a SDS-model) will not.


Well the issue is that these problems appear under certain circumstances as already described above by supermoee and others (see also Stummis forum). As I've already said I've just run my locos briefly on an oval circuit. No other trains, no lighting, no boosters, no brake-areas and absolutely clean track. And I'm trying to make sure that when I do have a big layout sometime in the future my locos will work like expected. When that day comes, I'm not sure if Märklin will "upgrade" my locos. But they will today. So I personal think it's best to play safe here and have the locos "upgraded".

And Märklin wouldn't offer this "upgrade" if there weren't some substantial problems, would they?
Here are some statements made by Märklin in their brochure "Innovation - SoftdriveSinus":
*"...des SoftdriveSinus-Motors erlaubt ruckelfreien Lauf..."
*"Bei einem Anstieg der Gesamtbelastung auf der Anlage durch mehrere Loks findet kein geschwindigkeitseinbruch bei den Lokomotiven statt."
*"Der Halt im Signalbereich mit Bremsbaustein ist vorbildgerechtmöglich."

Seems to me as they are emphasizing that the old problems are now gone with the new "SoftdriveSinus"...


Yes, the decision is of course up to everyone to make for themselves. But, once again, one might want to make an "upgrade" simply to avoid problems that hasn't been encountered yet. And Märklin have been absolute silent! To get information one have had to spend hours in front of the computer. Browsing different forums. Thats not how it should be!


And you didn't say how you think now either... But when it comes to this issue and Märklin, there are things you have to do and things you should do. The former is ruled by the law, the latter is ruled by morale and overall customer care.


Well I did kick my dealer in his a... But it didn't help. He has heard nothing from Märklin and neither have the Swedish distributor, so they won't accept my locos. And he is an authorized Märklin-dealer...
But why should I have to kick his a..? Just because Märklin haven't informed him properly? I'm not an a..-kicking kind of person, but if I was I would kick the a.. of Märklin. Afterall, what's the use kicking on the innocent?

All I find in that link is information on how to get in touch with the "Reparaturservice". It doesn't say anything explicit about this "upgrade-process".And as I've written above I have contacted them. But you miss the point. In order to phone them you have to be aware about this "upgrade-action" from Märklin. You also need to know that even if you may have a loco that is OK when you run it three laps on a small oval it may show problems under other circumstances. This information, once again, should have been given by Märklin. One should not have had to find it while browsing forums on the internet.
And by the way. The first option according to "Reparaturservice" was to send the locos to Märklin through my local dealer...



Well my view is clear. A company like Märklin, with such devoted customers, should of course do whatever they can to bring this kind of important information to the knowledge of their customers and dealers. Lutz says above that he knows that Märklin won't say anything officially about this. I must say I really thought they would... In that case I can only conclude that if we want information about things like this upgrade or "zinkpest-köfs", we will have to look on the internet-forums... Because Märklin won't give it to us unless it is a safety problem. But I forgot! Of course, we can always call Märklin. I did, and they were very helpful. But that demands that we are already aware about a potential problem which isn't always the case.

At Stummis many members (including the webmaster himself) didn't know about the zinkpest-problem before they read it on the forum. They then checked their beloved models and first then saw that they were affected. And it's the same with this "cinus-upgrade". If you've just briefly tested you're loco, you might not spot any problems. But, again, that doesn't mean that there aren't any potential problems ahead in the future. Märklin is helping everyone with both this "upgrade" and the köfs. That's great and we are thankful for it. But that doesn't change the fact that the information given about the nature of these problems and what to do about them leaves much to be desired.

Well when almagik started this thread he wondered if there were any news about this "upgrade-process".
To sum things up (as I see them):
Yes, there is an upgrade process taking place. Märklin will for free upgrade your locos with the old "compact c-sinus" engine. The process have started but PCBs for for example the HWZ-zug are not yet available. Many (most, all?) dealers both in Germany and abroad are not informed. If you're dealer are not helping you out, you can send your locos directly to Märklin (call their "Reparaturservice" for closer details. They speak English. You can also leave your models at the "Erlebnisswelt".

Side note: The upgraded locos will not be SDS-locos since they retain the old engine (but I think the actual difference between the engines are quite small. As Lutz has explained for us, the big difference is actually in the driver PCB). The latest batches produced of for example the 39120 are actually SDS-locos (new engine and PCB). We can see the difference between "first and second generation" 39120 by looking at the photos posted by Lutz (see link above). But with other models we can't say until Märklin reveals some information or someone posts pictures of the different versions.

Finally, I'm still hoping that Märklin will post something or send something out to the dealers regarding this. Since they've already taken the financial burden of changing these PCBs I can't see why they shouldn't.

/Torbjörn

Who is telling Porkies.

N

Emiling and no reply is standard Practice.

Never email. spend money and Phone but if you are certain person walk into the service centre and get service.
n

I only bought one of these with that motor.... got a refund from the dealer and bought something else.

David

However when a Manufacturer has knowledge that a particular part is faulty and in this case they did and redesigned the offending PCB. THere is a Compelling MORAL and Legal case(In most countries) for ALL affected models to have the faulty PCB replaced. Not when they fail, but should notify dealers, who would know who purchased the faulty Locos, ( I say faulty here as although they may not be showing signs of any faults thay are fitted with the Faulty PCB), then the dealers can inform the customers and have the faulty board replaced.
It is not good business practice or even logical to do this in secret.

N

Hi all,
Why does Marklin want to reinvent the wheel?[xx(]

Dr Dirt

True words, Lutz - excellent comparison

While you guys talk, I acted upon it ! Just came back from my dealer where I left my V08.5, HWZ and Schienenbus, complaining about stuttering running and voltage sensitivity.

Let's see what happens! It's the second time I sent them, first time they came back with a letter saying there would be a program to exchange the electronics until the end of 2007...

Luis. Well done a man of action. Will be interesting to see how many months you wait and what they do about it. As I said earlier the only loco I bought with that motor I sold and now only buy sds stuff.

John. I am waiting for a safety recall on my BR05 !!

David

Hi,
39120, 39980, 37900 and 37901 are back and no longer slowing down when operating a signal or turnout in the same power circuit. I am still waitinh for 39080 and HWZ and believe it or not 39572. They have done a fine job.

This upgrade/recall has to be extremely expensive for Maerklin. I cannot believe how many items I have that have this motor.

And, Lutz, what do you expect the update to consist of?

Lutz, maybe you can be so kind to ask your friends at Marklin Germany to tell their collegues in the Netherlands about this official "go". I brought my compact c-sines some 4 weeks ago, still no reaction. My dealer told me the Service Center was totally unaware of this situation...

Peter

Hi Peter!

As I described above I had exactly the same problem with the Swedish distributor. Märklin hadn't informed them either. Maybe the service center will be able to help you out after all... But if not, send the locos directly to Märklin Germany. I sent mine to my new German dealer who was kind enough to help me out. He will send them to Märklin when the necessary "spares" are available. He will then ship the locos back to me together with the items I have pre-ordered from him.

/Torbjörn

Now we have another answer. I'll talk to my dealer. He will know. I'm not spending one red cent. I paid enough for it. If they won't malke it run correctly, I am done with Marklin.

Wow...call the fire train![}:)]

How could this occur Lutz?