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Offline perz  
#351 Posted : 25 September 2008 00:06:18(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by estacioncocule
<br />Hello:
I can not understand why the 39820 diesel locomotive must be upgraded since it is not a Compact C Sine Model.

Most of this question is already answered, but I should add a few things:

- None of the models I sent in showed so severe problems that they really needed an update. They all had a severe voltage dependency, but in practice it only showed up to an annoying level in artificially difficult situations. I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't tried to push the limits of things.

- My 39820 had some individual problems, beyond the mere driver circuit problem. The motor sound (from the actual motor and gears) was very strange and it had obvious internal contact problems. The motor sound is not an error as such (it is not too noisy, just strange), but it makes me a bit suspicious.
Offline estacioncocule  
#352 Posted : 25 September 2008 06:00:39(UTC)
estacioncocule


Joined: 18/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 52
Location: Santiago,
Guus, Tom, Lutz and Perz:
Thanks for your replies and explanations.
I am happy with my 39820. It is running OK, with no jerks or other problems related to voltage drop, even when operating other 3 Locos in the layout.
So, no trip to Germany.(For my 39010, it took 4 months the all around trip from my country to Germany and return....too much time).
Julio
Offline perz  
#353 Posted : 25 September 2008 22:26:41(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
- serial numbers decrease.

You mean mfx serial numbers (what I call mfx ID codes), I assume ? I.e., the code the lok identifies itself with to the MS/CS during lok registration.

Regarding the new "Alzhimer" fix in the 37900 I think it is so definitely and undisputably fixed that it marks a new era in Märklin decoder development. When they finally fix something, they really do it! It is hard to believe they could do that with only a new firmware revision, but who knows (except Lutz and Märklin themselves)?
Offline intruder  
#354 Posted : 26 September 2008 02:31:14(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
I have done a test with my 39420 SBB Re 4/4

When driving the locomotive and one coach (the 49960 Messwagen), with other locomotives (two big steamers, a 3044 and a 36320) parked on the test layout, the average current is 510 mA.

First of all, I notice that the locomotive speed is very variable. I try to keep 80 km/h, but the speed is varying between 76 and 84 km/h. Also the current is changing quite much all the time. From 483 to 534 mA, but mostly between 503 and 517 mA

Turning one smoke generator on (on a parked locomotive), the current increases 100 mA an is still varying a lot. The locomotive speed drops approx. 10 km/h

Turning a second smoke generator on, another 100 mA is added to the current. The locomotive speed drops another 4 km/h.

All the time the speed changes, basically approx. 4 km/h up and down from the avarage speed.

Except from the varying speed, the locomotive runs very smoothly and quiet.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline H0  
#355 Posted : 26 September 2008 11:36:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by intruder
<br />Except from the varying speed, the locomotive runs very smoothly and quiet.

Yeah, Svein, but when the layout grows the varying speed will show
<ul><li>when a loco passes from one booster to another</li><li>when loco has to stop at a signal with brake module</li><li>whenever the track voltage changes</li></ul>
When a loco slows down abruptly by 20 or 30 km/h when passing from a booster with little load to a booster with heavy load, this doesn't look prototypical.

Turning on lights and sound on my Schienenbus already made a difference of about 10 km/h. No chance to program a prototypical maximum speed that works with and without sound!
Even worse: the MS with the DC power supply has a lower track voltage: locos run slower there. No chance to program a prototypical maximum speed that works with different controllers!

The update cures all this.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mjrallare  
#356 Posted : 26 September 2008 15:17:04(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
As Lutz stated, the HWZ 26610 are now being "upgraded" (to the new quality standardbiggrin). Mine has arrived at my German dealer and is waiting to be shipped home to "daddy".

/Torbjörn
Offline perz  
#357 Posted : 26 September 2008 23:25:01(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Lutz,

Thank you for the detailed info. In fact, I do not have any LokProgrammer (nor do I have a CS) so the readout format is new to me. But I have a protocol spy so I can see all mfx commands my MS sends to the loks.

Offline intruder  
#358 Posted : 27 September 2008 03:39:40(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
When I look at the setting of the original decoder for my 39420 SBB Re4/4, I find this:

Load Control:
Reference parameter 0,000
Control parameter K 0
Control parameter I 0
Control influence 0

I have no idea what this means, and I see the same data on the catenary maintenance vehicle, 39970.

Can these settings have any influence on the varying speed that has been discussed earlier?
Should I try to change some of them?
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline xxxxdown  
#359 Posted : 27 September 2008 14:08:36(UTC)
xxxxdown


Joined: 24/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by intruder
Should I try to change some of them?

Hi Svein,

NEVER EVER CHANGE THESE!!!

They are intentionally (i.e. MUST be) set to 0 since the load control/regulation for SDS locos is done by the SDS driver rather than the decoder.

Speed settings are done with different parameters.


WHY??????
I Love Marklin
Offline intruder  
#360 Posted : 27 September 2008 18:02:17(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Understood, Lutz.

Thank you.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline H0  
#361 Posted : 27 September 2008 23:01:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hello!
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by xxxxdown
<br />WHY??????

What do you mean exactly?

mfx Decoder cannot drive c sine motors directly.
Between decoder and motor there is a driver PCB that does the load regulation.

I dunno what happens when you activate the load regulation of the decoder - but it can hardly do any good and probably causes the loco to malfunction (or maybe it'll even cause damages).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline laalves  
#362 Posted : 02 October 2008 03:57:27(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
Henschell Wegmann is back and is the way I expected it to be 3 years ago when I bought it [}:)]

Anyway, it is perfect and runs beautifully smooth.

This does show that, one way or the other, even if later rather than sooner, Märklin stands by its products.
Offline mjrallare  
#363 Posted : 02 October 2008 11:54:26(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by laalves
...
This does show that, one way or the other, even if later rather than sooner, Märklin stands by its products.

Yes, I agree. I've had four trains upgraded and everything went fine...

But, with the risk of repeating myself, why wasn't the information better handled ? When turning to my swedish dealer I was told that there were no upgrading taking place. I received the same answer when I called the swedish importer. And how do you know if a loco you're purchasing has the upgraded PCB or not? In this area there still is some room for improvement. But hopefully there won't be another situation like this in the future.

/Torbjörn
Offline laalves  
#364 Posted : 02 October 2008 12:42:07(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
I think that they did this the way they did probably because they know their customer base. Maybe 50% static collectors, 25% occasional runners, 25% frequent runners.

Of these, the static collectors will never notice any issue, half of the occasional runners will notice and the frequent runners will notice. This way, only 37.5% of the loks will be returned, minimising costs. And this has happened before, I remember the first 37555s with non-load compensating decoders that were exchanged IF you complained, just like this case.
Offline David Dewar  
#365 Posted : 02 October 2008 13:46:40(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,343
Location: Scotland
Hi Luis Glad loco back and now running.
I wonder if M have also worked out your precentages so they know how many faulty goods will be coming back to thembiggrin
I think they have to upgrade or repair on a regular basis as there are customers who will not buy again if they are left with something sub standard and will go elsewhere for their models.
What they now are hopefully working on is getting things right first time and saving us a lot of time and trouble.
The great thing about this forum is I have not bought any of this type of loco and stuck with the old c sine or the new motor which is great.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline john black  
#366 Posted : 02 October 2008 21:30:13(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by laalves
<br />... the static collectors (50%) will never notice any issue

Right, Luis - they easily could sell them dummies with a junk of lead, inside biggrin[}:)]
What waste of motors, gears, and decoders. And Svein's orange wire ...

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline Macfire  
#367 Posted : 04 October 2008 02:22:25(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Still waiting on notification of return of my 39010
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline pa-pauls  
#368 Posted : 10 October 2008 15:16:23(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,841
Location: Norway
Just got mye model 39619 in the door after the SDS upgrade Smile

Really looking forward to test it this weekend as it was not running well before wink
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline Macfire  
#369 Posted : 11 December 2008 15:14:34(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Received my BR01 back from M* yesterday.
It now runs like a dream, vast improvement.
So I have decided it is now a "keeper" biggrin
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline H0  
#370 Posted : 08 January 2009 17:40:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
I asked M* about my BR 151 (#39582).
They replied today and told me to phone them in four through six weeks.
I presume that also applies to other locos with mfx and original c-sine motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline perz  
#371 Posted : 03 February 2009 01:45:22(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I finally received my upgraded 39820 BR V270 back today. This model is one with mfx decoder and the old C-sine engine.

The voltage sensitivity is much improved:

Speed 1: 0.94
Speed 4: 0.11
Speed 8: 0.15
Speed 12: 0.07
Speed 14: 0.08

Lower value is better. It was well over 2 before the upgrade on all speeds except 14.

Nothing else was improved though. The lok still sounds very strange, somewhat like a sewing machine, and the problems with bad contact haven't been cured. The contact problems have rather become worse. Running smoothness is also not as good as before the upgrade, and now definitely not as good as old C-sine without mfx.

Offline pa-pauls  
#372 Posted : 03 February 2009 10:35:50(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,841
Location: Norway
Thank's Per Smile

Old big C-Sinus motor and mfx doesn't really work 100% after my experince either [:I]

So my model's with the old big C-Sinus has either the 6090x type decoder or I have changed the motor to 5-pol to use mfx and sound wink
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline H0  
#373 Posted : 09 April 2009 18:21:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by H0
<br />I asked M* about my BR 151 (#39582).

M* cured the voltage sensitivity problem of my BR 151 (#39582) and Am 4/4 (#39801, former German V 200).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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