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upgrade Csinus compact
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perz
#351
Posted :
25 September 2008 00:06:18(UTC)
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Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by estacioncocule
<br />Hello:
I can not understand why the 39820 diesel locomotive must be upgraded since it is not a Compact C Sine Model.
Most of this question is already answered, but I should add a few things:
- None of the models I sent in showed so severe problems that they really
needed
an update. They all had a severe voltage dependency, but in practice it only showed up to an annoying level in artificially difficult situations. I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't tried to push the limits of things.
- My 39820 had some individual problems, beyond the mere driver circuit problem. The motor sound (from the actual motor and gears) was very strange and it had obvious internal contact problems. The motor sound is not an error as such (it is not too noisy, just strange), but it makes me a bit suspicious.
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estacioncocule
#352
Posted :
25 September 2008 06:00:39(UTC)
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Joined: 18/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 52
Location: Santiago,
Guus, Tom, Lutz and Perz:
Thanks for your replies and explanations.
I am happy with my 39820. It is running OK, with no jerks or other problems related to voltage drop, even when operating other 3 Locos in the layout.
So, no trip to Germany.(For my 39010, it took 4 months the all around trip from my country to Germany and return....too much time).
Julio
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perz
#353
Posted :
25 September 2008 22:26:41(UTC)
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Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
- serial numbers decrease.
You mean
mfx
serial numbers (what I call mfx ID codes), I assume ? I.e., the code the lok identifies itself with to the MS/CS during lok registration.
Regarding the new "Alzhimer" fix in the 37900 I think it is so definitely and undisputably fixed that it marks a new era in Märklin decoder development. When they finally fix something, they really do it! It is hard to believe they could do that with only a new firmware revision, but who knows (except Lutz and Märklin themselves)?
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intruder
#354
Posted :
26 September 2008 02:31:14(UTC)
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Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
I have done a test with my 39420 SBB Re 4/4
When driving the locomotive and one coach (the 49960 Messwagen), with other locomotives (two big steamers, a 3044 and a 36320) parked on the test layout, the average current is 510 mA.
First of all, I notice that the locomotive speed is very variable. I try to keep 80 km/h, but the speed is varying between 76 and 84 km/h. Also the current is changing quite much all the time. From 483 to 534 mA, but mostly between 503 and 517 mA
Turning one smoke generator on (on a parked locomotive), the current increases 100 mA an is still varying a lot. The locomotive speed drops approx. 10 km/h
Turning a second smoke generator on, another 100 mA is added to the current. The locomotive speed drops another 4 km/h.
All the time the speed changes, basically approx. 4 km/h up and down from the avarage speed.
Except from the varying speed, the locomotive runs very smoothly and quiet.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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H0
#355
Posted :
26 September 2008 11:36:48(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,436
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by intruder
<br />Except from the varying speed, the locomotive runs very smoothly and quiet.
Yeah, Svein, but when the layout grows the varying speed will show
<ul><li>when a loco passes from one booster to another</li><li>when loco has to stop at a signal with brake module</li><li>whenever the track voltage changes</li></ul>
When a loco slows down abruptly by 20 or 30 km/h when passing from a booster with little load to a booster with heavy load, this doesn't look prototypical.
Turning on lights and sound on my Schienenbus already made a difference of about 10 km/h. No chance to program a prototypical maximum speed that works with and without sound!
Even worse: the MS with the DC power supply has a lower track voltage: locos run slower there. No chance to program a prototypical maximum speed that works with different controllers!
The update cures all this.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize
a high level of quality
, the
best possible fidelity to the prototype
, and
absolute precision
. You will see that
in all of our products
." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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mjrallare
#356
Posted :
26 September 2008 15:17:04(UTC)
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Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 563
As Lutz stated, the HWZ 26610 are now being "upgraded" (to the new quality standard
). Mine has arrived at my German dealer and is waiting to be shipped home to "daddy".
/Torbjörn
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perz
#357
Posted :
26 September 2008 23:25:01(UTC)
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Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Lutz,
Thank you for the detailed info. In fact, I do not have any LokProgrammer (nor do I have a CS) so the readout format is new to me. But I have a protocol spy so I can see all mfx commands my MS sends to the loks.
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intruder
#358
Posted :
27 September 2008 03:39:40(UTC)
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Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
When I look at the setting of the original decoder for my 39420 SBB Re4/4, I find this:
Load Control:
Reference parameter 0,000
Control parameter K 0
Control parameter I 0
Control influence 0
I have no idea what this means, and I see the same data on the catenary maintenance vehicle, 39970.
Can these settings have any influence on the varying speed that has been discussed earlier?
Should I try to change some of them?
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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xxxxdown
#359
Posted :
27 September 2008 14:08:36(UTC)
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Joined: 24/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by intruder
Should I try to change some of them?
Hi Svein,
NEVER EVER CHANGE THESE!!!
They are intentionally (i.e. MUST be) set to 0 since the load control/regulation for SDS locos is done by the SDS driver rather than the decoder.
Speed settings are done with different parameters.
WHY??????
I Love Marklin
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intruder
#360
Posted :
27 September 2008 18:02:17(UTC)
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Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Understood, Lutz.
Thank you.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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H0
#361
Posted :
27 September 2008 23:01:51(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,436
Location: DE-NW
Hello!
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by xxxxdown
<br />WHY??????
What do you mean exactly?
mfx Decoder cannot drive c sine motors directly.
Between decoder and motor there is a driver PCB that does the load regulation.
I dunno what happens when you activate the load regulation of the decoder - but it can hardly do any good and probably causes the loco to malfunction (or maybe it'll even cause damages).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize
a high level of quality
, the
best possible fidelity to the prototype
, and
absolute precision
. You will see that
in all of our products
." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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laalves
#362
Posted :
02 October 2008 03:57:27(UTC)
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Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
Henschell Wegmann is back and is the way I expected it to be 3 years ago when I bought it [}:)]
Anyway, it is perfect and runs beautifully smooth.
This does show that, one way or the other, even if later rather than sooner, Märklin stands by its products.
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mjrallare
#363
Posted :
02 October 2008 11:54:26(UTC)
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Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 563
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by laalves
...
This does show that, one way or the other, even if later rather than sooner, Märklin stands by its products.
Yes, I agree. I've had four trains upgraded and everything went fine...
But, with the risk of repeating myself, why wasn't the information better handled ? When turning to my swedish dealer I was told that there were no upgrading taking place. I received the same answer when I called the swedish importer. And how do you know if a loco you're purchasing has the upgraded PCB or not? In this area there still is some room for improvement. But hopefully there won't be another situation like this in the future.
/Torbjörn
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laalves
#364
Posted :
02 October 2008 12:42:07(UTC)
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Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
I think that they did this the way they did probably because they know their customer base. Maybe 50% static collectors, 25% occasional runners, 25% frequent runners.
Of these, the static collectors will never notice any issue, half of the occasional runners will notice and the frequent runners will notice. This way, only 37.5% of the loks will be returned, minimising costs. And this has happened before, I remember the first 37555s with non-load compensating decoders that were exchanged IF you complained, just like this case.
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David Dewar
#365
Posted :
02 October 2008 13:46:40(UTC)
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,450
Location: Scotland
Hi Luis Glad loco back and now running.
I wonder if M have also worked out your precentages so they know how many faulty goods will be coming back to them
I think they have to upgrade or repair on a regular basis as there are customers who will not buy again if they are left with something sub standard and will go elsewhere for their models.
What they now are hopefully working on is getting things right first time and saving us a lot of time and trouble.
The great thing about this forum is I have not bought any of this type of loco and stuck with the old c sine or the new motor which is great.
David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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john black
#366
Posted :
02 October 2008 21:30:13(UTC)
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Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by laalves
<br />... the static collectors (50%) will never notice any issue
Right, Luis - they easily could sell them dummies with a junk of lead, inside
[}:)]
What waste of motors, gears, and decoders. And Svein's orange wire ...
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
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Macfire
#367
Posted :
04 October 2008 02:22:25(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Still waiting on notification of return of my 39010
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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pa-pauls
#368
Posted :
10 October 2008 15:16:23(UTC)
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Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,843
Location: Norway
Just got mye model 39619 in the door after the SDS upgrade
Really looking forward to test it this weekend as it was not running well before
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
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Macfire
#369
Posted :
11 December 2008 15:14:34(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Received my BR01 back from M* yesterday.
It now runs like a dream, vast improvement.
So I have decided it is now a "keeper"
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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H0
#370
Posted :
08 January 2009 17:40:26(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,436
Location: DE-NW
I asked M* about my BR 151 (#39582).
They replied today and told me to phone them in four through six weeks.
I presume that also applies to other locos with mfx and original c-sine motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize
a high level of quality
, the
best possible fidelity to the prototype
, and
absolute precision
. You will see that
in all of our products
." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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perz
#371
Posted :
03 February 2009 01:45:22(UTC)
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Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I finally received my upgraded 39820 BR V270 back today. This model is one with mfx decoder and the old C-sine engine.
The voltage sensitivity is much improved:
Speed 1: 0.94
Speed 4: 0.11
Speed 8: 0.15
Speed 12: 0.07
Speed 14: 0.08
Lower value is better. It was well over 2 before the upgrade on all speeds except 14.
Nothing else was improved though. The lok still sounds very strange, somewhat like a sewing machine, and the problems with bad contact haven't been cured. The contact problems have rather become worse. Running smoothness is also not as good as before the upgrade, and now definitely not as good as old C-sine without mfx.
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pa-pauls
#372
Posted :
03 February 2009 10:35:50(UTC)
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Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,843
Location: Norway
Thank's Per
Old big C-Sinus motor and mfx doesn't really work 100% after my experince either [:I]
So my model's with the old big C-Sinus has either the 6090x type decoder or I have changed the motor to 5-pol to use mfx and sound
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
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H0
#373
Posted :
09 April 2009 18:21:45(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by H0
<br />I asked M* about my BR 151 (#39582).
M* cured the voltage sensitivity problem of my BR 151 (#39582) and Am 4/4 (#39801, former German V 200).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize
a high level of quality
, the
best possible fidelity to the prototype
, and
absolute precision
. You will see that
in all of our products
." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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