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Offline mvd71  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2021 10:54:06(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,445
Location: Auckland,
Hi Everone,

Looking for info and photos of the very first trains pulled behind the E03 locos when the first four were in service 1965-67.

Anything appreciated.

Cheers.....

Mike
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Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 19 May 2021 13:15:25(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
I know they pulled the era 3 and 4 Rheingold TEE trains, the Helvetia, Parsifal, etc. Also skirted express cars like the iviera Express once the 103 met higher production, and the big diesel began retiring, and early intercity trains.
Offline Alsterstreek  
#3 Posted : 19 May 2021 13:24:35(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,209
Location: Southwesternmost
Some "early" compositions with images:

https://www.modellbahn.n...ge-fuer-die-e03-vorserie
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Offline PJMärklin  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2021 13:47:21(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,003
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Everone,

Looking for info and photos of the very first trains pulled behind the E03 locos when the first four were in service 1965-67.

Anything appreciated.

Cheers.....

Mike


Hello Mike,

These items might perhaps help.


Some very brief history here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Class_103 and http://www.dbtrains.com/...locomotives/epochIII/E03

Some info re TEE coaches of the same period ('65-'67) : http://www.dbtrains.com/...s/epochIII/rheingold-tee



This foto of E03 in 1965 is by Dieter Kempf :

UserPostedImage


This is from my 1967 Märklin catalogue, when the E03 model was first presented :

UserPostedImage

This image from my 2009/2010 Märklin catalogue suggests the "Blauer Enzian" TEE 55/56 from 00776 as a suitable consist :

UserPostedImage

This is not an historical image, but from a museum loco outing, hopefully with appropriate consist (except the backup loco at rear !) :

UserPostedImage

same for this image :

UserPostedImage


and this one :

UserPostedImage

Some video of E03 and coaches from museum stock :


and
and




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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 19 May 2021 15:20:17(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,105
Location: New Zealand
Hi Mike, I've got some Eisenbahn Journals on the E03 and BR103 which I'm trying to compress enough to post them here.

The E03 Journal especially seems to have what you want, though you will have to do a bit of translation from German.

I know with the 1 Gauge trains Marklin introduced 2 sets of coaches, the first set was intended for the BR103 (58038/39), the second for the E03 (58048/49). Apparently the representation was 1970 for 58038/39 and 1967 for 58048/49.

I've got the 58048/49 sets for use with my BR103, to my untrained eye there isn't much difference.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 19 May 2021 16:05:35(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,307
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Looking for info and photos of the very first trains pulled behind the E03 locos when the first four were in service 1965-67.

Great! -I am wondering about the same thing.

I understand that the first service was during "Internationalen Verkehrsaustellung München 1965". I have found many old videos on Youtube, which contains snippets of the service. (not being train-videos per se all of them)
As seen in the link posted by Alsterstreek, it was with the (slightly modified) standard D-zug wagens.
In the videos I think I have seen shorter 4-wagen long trains, including some with green 2nd class wagens too. (I might be wrong, because the resolution and colours of these videos are rather bad)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 20 May 2021 05:58:26(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,105
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I've got some Eisenbahn Journals on the E03 and BR103 which I'm trying to compress enough to post them here.


I couldn't compress them enough, so have split them into two files each.

Eisenbahn Journal Special 2002-04_E03-1.pdf (16,598kb) downloaded 35 time(s).

Eisenbahn Journal Special 2002-04_E03-2.pdf (7,129kb) downloaded 29 time(s).

Eisenbahn Journal Sonder 2000-03_BR103-1.pdf (14,910kb) downloaded 33 time(s).

Eisenbahn Journal Sonder 2000-03_BR103-2.pdf (8,073kb) downloaded 26 time(s).
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Offline PJMärklin  
#8 Posted : 20 May 2021 09:05:22(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,003
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I've got some Eisenbahn Journals on the E03 and BR103 which I'm trying to compress enough to post them here...

...I couldn't compress them enough, so have split them into two files each.


Great reading David, thanks ThumpUp
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 20 May 2021 09:49:50(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,105
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I've got some Eisenbahn Journals on the E03 and BR103......


Found another one.

Eisenbahn Journal Extra-Ausgabe 2009-01-BR103-1.pdf (15,051kb) downloaded 34 time(s).

Eisenbahn Journal Extra-Ausgabe 2009-01-BR103-2.pdf (13,727kb) downloaded 25 time(s).



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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 20 May 2021 17:49:55(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
During the period referenced, the prototype locomotives were being tested, largely on the section between Munich and Nuremberg (Nürnberg) or Augsburg.
I don't think that the E03 was used to pull the Stammzug of the TEE Rheingold. It may have pulled the Rheinpfeil to Munich.
I will have to check my resources for more information.

Regards

Mike C

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Offline marklinist5999  
#11 Posted : 20 May 2021 21:39:24(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
In 2002, Marklin released simultaneously a 103 in TEE colors of cream/dark red and a Helvetica and Rheinfel 3 car set each. That confuses me. Maybe the br 112 pulled the late Rheingold in cream/blue.
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 20 May 2021 23:37:00(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
In 2002, Marklin released simultaneously a 103 in TEE colors of cream/dark red and a Helvetica and Rheinfel 3 car set each. That confuses me. Maybe the br 112 pulled the late Rheingold in cream/blue.


The E03 went into testing in 1965. The series class 103 entered into service a few years later.
When people refer to the E03 during the period 1965-1969, they are referring to the prototype locomotives, which were used for testing prior to the class going into production.

Once the 103 series went into regular service, those locos could be found on express trains throughout Germany, including the four prototype locos.
Prior to that, the prototype locomotives were limited to certain routes, as they were being tested and were not in regular service.

To be clear: E03 refers to E03 001-004
103 refers to all class 103, including the four prototype machines named above

You refer to the Rheingold and the Helvetia, aka 42990 and 42991. Each 3 coach set was a subject of frustration to me.
The Rheingold had 3 coaches and was missing the Apümh for the Basel-Geneva section.
The Helvetia had 3 coaches and was missing the other coaches for the Basel-Zurich section
Oh, and did I mention that somebody at Maerklin rendered the dimensions of the ARDümh at scale length (282mm), but also in window height. That dimension should have remained in 1/87, so the windows are not tall enough on the model.

I acquired a second 42991 and use the Apümh with the Rheingold and the Avümh with the Helvetia, leaving an orphan ARDümh.
It would have been nice if Maerklin would have followed up with additional coaches for those sets.

The Helvetia is now running with 282mm coaches (43854 and 43866). Unfortunately the cook on that train is not very good as he seems to frequently have kitchen fires ;)

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 21 May 2021 00:31:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
You refer to the Rheingold and the Helvetia, aka 42990 and 42991. Each 3 coach set was a subject of frustration to me.
The Rheingold had 3 coaches and was missing the Apümh for the Basel-Geneva section.
The Helvetia had 3 coaches and was missing the other coaches for the Basel-Zurich section
Oh, and did I mention that somebody at Maerklin rendered the dimensions of the ARDümh at scale length (282mm), but also in window height. That dimension should have remained in 1/87, so the windows are not tall enough on the model.
These coaches are far from 282 mm. I think they are 270 mm each, making them 1:102 for the diners and 1:98 for regular coaches. The scale length for the ARDmh would be 316 mm - that's a difference of 46 mm.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 21 May 2021 14:02:14(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
These coaches are far from 282 mm. I think they are 270 mm each, making them 1:102 for the diners and 1:98 for regular coaches. The scale length for the ARDmh would be 316 mm - that's a difference of 46 mm.



I never said that 42990 or 42991 were 282mm. Those were and still are 270mm models.
The only reference to 282mm was in relation to the later Helvetia sets (43853, 43854, 43866).
The important fact was the rendering of the windows on the bar coach which detracts from the appearance of the model.

Regards

Mike C

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Offline marklinist5999  
#15 Posted : 21 May 2021 14:11:41(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
They are still nice and I like mine a lot! Even sans led lighting.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 21 May 2021 14:14:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I never said that 42990 or 42991 were 282mm. Those were and still are 270mm models.
There is an ARDümh 105 in the 42991 set. You mention 42990 and 42991, then you mention the length 282 mm of the ARDümh coach (see the block I quoted). I missed that you were referring to complete different models, most likely the WRm from 26557 with the tiny windows.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline marklinist5999  
#17 Posted : 22 May 2021 11:44:06(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
Marklin has new for summer cream/red versions. They measure 11/1/8 inches, 282 mm. Not TEE though.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 22 May 2021 12:43:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,105
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Marklin has new for summer cream/red versions.


???? Confused Confused

Cream / Red versions of what???

There's no Cream / Red versions of anything in the Summer New Items let alone passenger cars.

Do you mean the 4386x, 43845 and 43894 cars in the main 2021 New Items? If so, best to reference them by number.

Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 22 May 2021 13:30:30(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
Sorry, just new for 2021. The catalogue came the other day with a shipmnet from my dealer. Items 43862 through 43894. Wanderlust!
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#20 Posted : 23 May 2021 00:23:05(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,105
Location: New Zealand
Where's Mike after all this?

Step up to the plate young man.....
Offline mike c  
#21 Posted : 23 May 2021 06:51:05(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
The ARDm (ARDümh) model released in the 42991 set and the 42972 (IC) version were rendered with a scale length of 27cm. The width of the windows was also rendered in that scale, so that the coach had the same number of windows as the prototype. Maerklin's design engineers mistakenly rendered the height of the windows in the same scale length, rather than in the correct scale of 1/87 so that the windows had the correct aspect in relation to the height of the top and bottom of the windows. As a result, there is too much space between the top of the windows and the roof line.
Similar errors have also occurred with the SBB WRm Donauwörth Restaurant and the DB Bpmz 291

42973 (same as 42991 model):
https://static.maerklin....2c0a1fadd31434539157.jpg

Model of same coach rendered in 282mm for the 43854 Set:
https://static.maerklin....79dbb334b31434539031.jpg

Roco ARDm for comparison: https://www.roco.cc/en/p...0-001003-1/products.html

43874: SBB WRm
https://static.maerklin....895bcbd65f1468576150.jpg

LS Models 47219 WRm for comparison: http://www.reisezugwagen...oads/LS_47219_Detail.jpg

Maerklin's Bpmz 291
264mm https://static.maerklin....d5f24660891434539438.jpg
282mm https://static.maerklin....66362464bb1468576200.jpg

Roco Bpmz 291 for comparison:
https://www.roco.cc/en/p...03-0-003-1/products.html

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 23 May 2021 18:43:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline marklinist5999  
#22 Posted : 23 May 2021 13:54:01(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
Mike, the Roco links are not found, or expired, but their cars have always been correct to scale, and detail, yes? The Swiss windows have more rounded corners anyway.
I didn't notice the window width errors by Marklin. Perhaps in real life I would, but have never been to either country to see any yet. Apicture is worth a thousand words, but when they are compressed on a page the true dimensions can look different.
Offline mike c  
#23 Posted : 23 May 2021 18:45:09(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
Roco links corrected. I guess that they no longer allow direct link to images.
The rounded windows on the Swiss coaches was an issue on the Lightsteel coaches by Maerklin/Trix and not on any other coach (that has been discussed in this forum).

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mvd71  
#24 Posted : 26 May 2021 23:25:57(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,445
Location: Auckland,
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies, sorry I’ve not responded. I’ve been getting some tiring duties from work so I haven’t had a lot of energy for much else.


I think the various posts do answer my questions, the blue coaches were mentioned in the articles I read, but until now I hadn’t been able to determine if they were the UIC d-Zug coaches, or the Touropa ones with skirting as the articles were not specific about that. But now looking at some of the links and the discussion it seems I can run my era 3 d-Zug coaches and be prototypical in the consist.

Maybe one day I’ll be able to find some red and cream tee coaches in era 3 markings which would be really cool, in the meantime it’s d-Zug coaches 😊

Cheers.....

Mike
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Offline jvuye  
#25 Posted : 26 May 2021 23:44:06(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies, sorry I’ve not responded. I’ve been getting some tiring duties from work so I haven’t had a lot of energy for much else.


I think the various posts do answer my questions, the blue coaches were mentioned in the articles I read, but until now I hadn’t been able to determine if they were the UIC d-Zug coaches, or the Touropa ones with skirting as the articles were not specific about that. But now looking at some of the links and the discussion it seems I can run my era 3 d-Zug coaches and be prototypical in the consist.

Maybe one day I’ll be able to find some red and cream tee coaches in era 3 markings which would be really cool, in the meantime it’s d-Zug coaches 😊

Cheers.....

Mike


Catching the thread a bit late
When I have that kind of question, I usually get first to this place Eisenbahn Stifftung and in the upper right corner , in the little "BR" search window I'd type E 03
Happy discoveries! Smile Wink
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline marklinist5999  
#26 Posted : 27 May 2021 02:06:20(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
Thank's jvuye^ keeps us from feeling our "oats" in frustration too! While I try to keep my posts forum oriented, none of us are perfect. Rather than chastize someone for straying off, I occasionally oblige them a reply. Only to to read the next post obliterating the topic author. I think it's rude. Why not just ignore it if they don't like it? I don't even get repiles or suggestions (often) on my site specific questions.
Offline Henrik Schütz  
#27 Posted : 27 May 2021 15:38:26(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
You want TEE Blauer Enzian! And Diamant 1967 or so.

Thats the trains Märklin had in mind when they released 3053 with 4055-4089 cars.

Henrik Schütz
Offline mike c  
#28 Posted : 27 May 2021 19:41:48(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
If I remember correctly, the first 4055-4090 coaches had Basel-Hamburg as destination (sign). That definitely does not correspond to the Blauer Enzian or Diamant.

The original topic was more about what actual trains were to be found being pulled by the prototype E03 locomotives between 1965 and 1967, which was prior to the locomotives of the 103 series going into regular service.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mvd71  
#29 Posted : 28 May 2021 04:36:40(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,445
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post
You want TEE Blauer Enzian! And Diamant 1967 or so.

Thats the trains Märklin had in mind when they released 3053 with 4055-4089 cars.

Henrik Schütz


Yes, a set of era 3 blazer Enzian coaches would be nice, but they don’t appear too often on eBay at a price I can afford. Still, I keep my fingers crossed.

My original question was born out of the statement of the dbtrains website that they first ran with blue coaches.

That had me wondering if it was the blue coaches of the first generation UIC coaches, the touropa Coaches, or even the schürzenwahens in their blue paint scheme.

Anyway, the question has prompted some informative responses and good discussion!
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Offline mike c  
#30 Posted : 28 May 2021 15:57:49(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,260
Location: Montreal, QC
The initial Rheingold and Rheinpfeil coaches were delivered in 1962. Additional coaches of those types (with modifications) were delivered in 1965 and between 1965 and 1969 most of the older coaches were repainted in the red/beige TEE livery.
As the E03 (103.0) were being tested, they were not always in TEE service, so much of the testing was done using D-Zug trains, which were normally composed of blue Aüm and green Büm coaches. Initial testing was primarily between Munich and Augsburg while they worked the kinks out. It was only in 1971 that the 103.1 went into service.

I made a mistake in my post above. The first Maerklin models of the TEE coaches was 4055-4059. The second version was 4085-4090. The next version was the 27cm models without close coupler which was 4095-4099. IC versions of the 27cm coaches with close couplings were released as 4294-4298 (red skirting). I referred to 4055-4090 instead of to the individual series.

Regards

Mike C
Offline marklinist5999  
#31 Posted : 28 May 2021 16:37:09(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
Does the Rheingold train still serve Rheingold beer?
I'm not able to read the tiny print on the destination boards on the wagons anymore without my optivisor and or an an extrta magnifying lens. I have a minor catarcat starting in my right eye as well. If I like the look of a car, it's fine by me to run in any consist.
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Offline mvd71  
#32 Posted : 29 May 2021 06:24:07(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,445
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The initial Rheingold and Rheinpfeil coaches were delivered in 1962. Additional coaches of those types (with modifications) were delivered in 1965 and between 1965 and 1969 most of the older coaches were repainted in the red/beige TEE livery.
As the E03 (103.0) were being tested, they were not always in TEE service, so much of the testing was done using D-Zug trains, which were normally composed of blue Aüm and green Büm coaches. Initial testing was primarily between Munich and Augsburg while they worked the kinks out. It was only in 1971 that the 103.1 went into service.

I made a mistake in my post above. The first Maerklin models of the TEE coaches was 4055-4059. The second version was 4085-4090. The next version was the 27cm models without close coupler which was 4095-4099. IC versions of the 27cm coaches with close couplings were released as 4294-4298 (red skirting). I referred to 4055-4090 instead of to the individual series.

Regards

Mike C


Thanks Mike, that does clarify it nicely. So I can run my e03 with the Aüm and Büm coaches until some red and cream coaches with era3 marking come available Cool Cool

Cheers....

Mike
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