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Offline eurotrain  
#1 Posted : 25 February 2019 18:20:29(UTC)
eurotrain

United States   
Joined: 26/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Pennsylvania, Mount Pleasant
It seems that the new buffer capacitor from Marklin is now available and you can download the instructions. It seems very easy, plug in and end flickering and noise breaks.

Has anyone installed this yet?
Any know problems with fitting in the locomotive?
Offline scraigen  
#2 Posted : 25 February 2019 19:11:39(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
It would be good if they just included capacitors in all new models by default.
Must build something
Offline Elsleuth1  
#3 Posted : 25 February 2019 19:29:49(UTC)
Elsleuth1

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Posts: 99
Will this work on older locomotives?
Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 25 February 2019 21:22:53(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
It would be good if they just included capacitors in all new models by default.


Yes, the buffer capacitor system really should be designed in and built into the main PCB of the loco with a simple plug (in case space constraints require you locate the actual capacitor/resistors/diode/inductors elsewhere.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline mario54i  
#5 Posted : 25 February 2019 22:33:42(UTC)
mario54i

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Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: eurotrain Go to Quoted Post
It seems that the new buffer capacitor from Marklin is now available and you can download the instructions. It seems very easy, plug in and end flickering and noise breaks.

Has anyone installed this yet?
Any know problems with fitting in the locomotive?


I think you are referring to Märklin 60974.
It's not just a capacitor, it'a power pack. It stores much more energy than a simple capacitor but works in conjunction with the decoder. And costs 40 €.

Offline scraigen  
#6 Posted : 26 February 2019 00:47:43(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post

I think you are referring to Märklin 60974.
It's not just a capacitor, it'a power pack. It stores much more energy than a simple capacitor but works in conjunction with the decoder. And costs 40 €.



It’s two capacitors Marklin site

From their site...

This is a circuit board with 2 buffer capacitors with each 1 Farad for connection to the mLD3 und mSD3, item numbers 60972, 60975, 60976, and 60977. The buffer capacitor prevents light flickering and sound dropout from dirty track sections.


....capacitors are cheap much more so than €40 it should just be built in. Very expensive for what it is, cost more than a whole ESU decoder.
Must build something
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Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 26 February 2019 02:33:15(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eurotrain Go to Quoted Post
.... It seems very easy, plug in and end flickering and noise breaks.

Plugging in, may be easy yes.

Ending Flickering and noise maybe a litle less so.
- the decoder needs to be updated v3.1.0+
- the decoder needs to be configured

For the later point, the manual does not offer a (factory default) value.
It would be interesting to record what people are seeing for this value after the various decoders are updated - or when the rethey start shipping from the factory with the prereq firmware.
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 26 February 2019 02:40:10(UTC)
clapcott

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Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
....capacitors are cheap much more so than €40 it should just be built in.

I would ask you to cite a (retail) source for " 2 x 1 Farad capacitors in an appropriate size " that is "... much cheaper ..." than 30€
Sure Marklin would be able to get better pricing, however they also have to provide the assembly of the unit and do it in such a way to prevent arc welding.

Quote:
Very expensive for what it is...

Your expectation as to "what it is" might need to be reset.

A UPS that is capable of providing motor, sound and auxiliary function power to the decoder (in the event of a track voltage dropout) for 10+ seconds is "quite a bit" IMHO.
Peter
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 26 February 2019 03:01:09(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Location: United States
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

A UPS that is capable of providing motor, sound and auxiliary function power to the decoder (in the event of a track voltage dropout) for 10+ seconds is "quite a bit" IMHO.


It was my understanding that this only provides power for sounds and not for motor operation, at least that is what people were saying when it was first introduced. It does seem to have a lot of capacity for just that though, so perhaps the initial speculation was wrong.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mario54i  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2019 09:40:49(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
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Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

I would ask you to cite a (retail) source for " 2 x 1 Farad capacitors in an appropriate size " that is "... much cheaper ..." than 30€


1 F capacitors
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Offline mbarreto  
#11 Posted : 26 February 2019 10:43:54(UTC)
mbarreto

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It is better to read the manual for a better understanding of the characteristics. I am surprised about the ganularity of the control that can be configured.
The device is much more than only a pair of capacitors.


power buffer.jpg

Regards,
Miguel



Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 26 February 2019 13:36:55(UTC)
xxup

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It is also worth mentioning that the ESU Maxi (54672) sells for 45Euro (RRP = 60 Euro) at Lippe... So the 40 Euro for the Marklin product seems reasonable... See https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/ESU/29-7-0-260170-001007005-0-0-0-0-0-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html

And the ESU Mini 54671 (one capacitor) https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/ESU/29-7-0-260169-001007005-0-0-0-0-0-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline dickinsonj  
#13 Posted : 26 February 2019 15:06:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Location: United States
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
It is better to read the manual for a better understanding of the characteristics. I am surprised about the granularity of the control that can be configured.
The device is much more than only a pair of capacitors.

Regards,
Miguel


Thanks for that post Miguel - I have not taken the time to seek out that information on my own. I agree - the ability to control this device exceeds what I had expected and makes it much more desirable. I am doing some mSD/3 upgrades at the moment and I need to buy some and try them out.

Does anyone know if this range of CVs will be available for use on the crippled factory decoders or only on new mSD/3 upgrade decoders?
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 26 February 2019 15:16:44(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post

....capacitors are cheap much more so than €40 it should just be built in.


The price is about right when you look at the price of the super-caps that it uses. They are not the usual tantalum or wet electrolytic capacitors that you can buy for a handful of cents.

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post

Very expensive for what it is, cost more than a whole ESU decoder.


Really? To me it is about the price as a Lokpilot, or mld3 decoder (so fitting one roughly doubles the price of that decoder). It is about 1/3 the price of a sound decoder - which is the item where dropouts are more likely to be noticed because the sound stops - unless the loco stops completely.

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Offline costing  
#15 Posted : 26 February 2019 16:54:57(UTC)
costing

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Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
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Location: Geneve, Geneva
I was looking forward to this buffer capacitor ever since it was announced. What's not clear to me yet are the dimensions, it seems rather large and hard to fit in the locos.

Since it was delayed so much I've ended up installing my own caps on the regulated voltage pins. The upside for a custom installation is that you can pick caps that physically fit the available volume.

The price is another downside, I find it way too high (a cap is ~1$ : https://www.digikey.com/...049=u1F&pv2079=u2.7V , assuming it's 2.7V like ESU's).

I'd rather they installed them (or even smaller ones) by default in the locos and not overengineer these pieces ...
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
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Offline scraigen  
#16 Posted : 26 February 2019 18:58:32(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Sorry everyone I clearly forgot that any criticism of Marklin no matter how small is just not welcome on this forum. I’ll stick to only positive comments. If you have track that is so bad that you need 10sec voltage backup then yes €40 is well worth it and is exceptional value for money.
Must build something
Offline dickinsonj  
#17 Posted : 26 February 2019 19:27:29(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Sorry everyone I clearly forgot that any criticism of Marklin no matter how small is just not welcome on this forum. I’ll stick to only positive comments.


Please don't do that Stuart, because the true picture of Märklin is a composite of the good and the bad and there are definitely things which they need told are unacceptable. Push back on negative comments mostly comes from a few people who hate everything Märklin does and yet keep buying their stuff and complaining, not from valid comments such as yours.

That said however I think that the ease of use, feature set and configurability of this item makes it worth the cost - with the important bit being worth it to me. We all have different capabilities and needs and one size definitely does not fit all.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 26 February 2019 19:48:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

I would ask you to cite a (retail) source for " 2 x 1 Farad capacitors in an appropriate size " that is "... much cheaper ..." than 30€


1 F capacitors


Those are 2.5v capacitors, is that the correct voltage for the buffer device?

I would have thought 25v caps would be more appropriate.
Offline mario54i  
#19 Posted : 26 February 2019 19:57:57(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
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Posts: 229
Location: Torino,
1F 25V capacitors are bigger than a scale 1 locomotive

Offline costing  
#20 Posted : 26 February 2019 19:59:43(UTC)
costing

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Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Geneve, Geneva
They must have step-up convertors, the low voltage would not be usable directly. But the storage capacity is indeed impressive.

If you connect the caps directly to the voltage regulated pins then yes, you should use 25V ones (in principle the decoders should support up to 27V, minus the bridge rectifier you should be ok with 25V electrolytic even with future upgrades).
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
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Offline Purellum  
#21 Posted : 26 February 2019 20:04:50(UTC)
Purellum

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Cool

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Sorry everyone I clearly forgot that any criticism of Marklin no matter how small is just not welcome on this forum.


Criticism based on wrong facts are not welcome.

Relevant criticism is usually welcomed by everybody.

Now, please tell us where to buy the cheap 1 Farad capacitors in the same size.

Per.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#22 Posted : 26 February 2019 20:26:52(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
1F 25V capacitors are bigger than a scale 1 locomotive


Which brings us back to Peter's original comment......

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

I would ask you to cite a (retail) source for " 2 x 1 Farad capacitors in an appropriate size " that is "... much cheaper ..." than 30€
Offline costing  
#23 Posted : 26 February 2019 20:53:36(UTC)
costing

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Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
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Location: Geneve, Geneva
Cheap and (relatively) small 1F capacitors : https://www.digikey.com/...049=u1F&pv2079=u2.7V

See above, you don't need 1F @ 25V ... Unless you want to start your car engine ...
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
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Offline franciscohg  
#24 Posted : 26 February 2019 20:59:34(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
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Location: Patagonia
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
It is also worth mentioning that the ESU Maxi (54672) sells for 45Euro (RRP = 60 Euro) at Lippe... So the 40 Euro for the Marklin product seems reasonable... See https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/ESU/29-7-0-260170-001007005-0-0-0-0-0-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html

And the ESU Mini 54671 (one capacitor) https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/ESU/29-7-0-260169-001007005-0-0-0-0-0-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html


And the DH power sells at MSL for 30 euro, so, it is in the range. The assembling also has to be taken in account since not everybody is able to do the soldering. Also there is some development that needs to be paid. As said before they are not just a pair of capacitors that store energy, they can be configured for different functions just like the DH ones, dont know about the ESU ones.
And as for the dirty tracks mentioned before, lets the one that never had a stalled loco throw the first stone.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Minok  
#25 Posted : 26 February 2019 21:12:25(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,212
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The discussion underlines WHY the 'power packs' are more expensive than just a capacitor or two, because they must be.

To store 1F of charge at the track voltage, which is what you need to just directly wire capacitors into the internal DC side VCC+ and GND- circuit, the capacitors are very large; would never fit.
To fit, they can store 1F of charge but at a lower voltage, and one then needs the added circuitry to charge (without blowing up, as overcharge and they do explode) the capacitors, and to discharge and pump up the voltage to the 12-20VDC range of whatever system one is running from the much lower capacitor voltage. That circuitry and the parts for it cost more than just the capacitors. Add to that, that this is designed to plug into the SUSI port on specific decoders ,m*D3 family, and be configurable in how its used by parameters on the decoder, its more complex than a simple pool of electrons.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline clapcott  
#26 Posted : 26 February 2019 21:19:47(UTC)
clapcott

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Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

I would ask you to cite a (retail) source for " 2 x 1 Farad capacitors in an appropriate size " that is "... much cheaper ..." than 30€


1 F capacitors


Thank you,

My apologies for being imprecise enough.
Can you refine the search to a voltage spec that is actually usable for decoders - 12V would be a minimum, although I would not be surprised if it is higher

Peter
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Offline scraigen  
#27 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:03:11(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Why do you NEED 2F of capacitance?
Why do you need a loco to run all features for 10s?
Could Märklin have made a power pack cheaper that would run the loco for 1s?
Why for example does ESU decoder manuals recommend 2200 uF @ 25v which can be found for about €1.
See this post https://www.marklin-user...citor--F1-and-F3-enabled

My initial comment was that capacitors are cheap which they are in general and that it would be nice if they were fitted by default to the decoders. A separate question is “Is 2F is actually necessary?”
Must build something
Offline mario54i  
#28 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:18:35(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
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Posts: 229
Location: Torino,
If you have rails so dirty or damaged to require a 10 s backup, maybe it's less expensive to replace them than placing a 40 € device in many locomotives. Not considering that it works only with recent decoders.
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Offline franciscohg  
#29 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:29:12(UTC)
franciscohg

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Location: Patagonia
Well, indeed you dont need 10s, DH gives power for about 4s after the layout is unpowered, for running is more than enough, but they also are not cheap, so perhaps that is not that relevant in the prize.
And to throw more wood to the fire, I think we all know that with M one always pays a little more, since ever, dont know why it has become so important today.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Purellum  
#30 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:30:13(UTC)
Purellum

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Posts: 3,310
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Why for example does ESU decoder manuals recommend 2200 uF @ 25v which can be found for about €1.


A very simple calculation tells me ( t=RxC ) that a 2200 uF capacitor can power one single LED in series with a resistor of 1000 Ω for 2,2 seconds.

In that time, the voltage over the capacitor will drop 63,2 %.

How long time will a loco produce sound and have full lights on with a 2200 uF capacitor??

Per.

Cool

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Offline franciscohg  
#31 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:34:37(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
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Location: Patagonia
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Why do you NEED 2F of capacitance?
Why do you need a loco to run all features for 10s?
Could Märklin have made a power pack cheaper that would run the loco for 1s?
Why for example does ESU decoder manuals recommend 2200 uF @ 25v which can be found for about €1.
See this post https://www.marklin-user...citor--F1-and-F3-enabled

My initial comment was that capacitors are cheap which they are in general and that it would be nice if they were fitted by default to the decoders. A separate question is “Is 2F is actually necessary?”


But ESU power pack mini is 1F itself.....
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline scraigen  
#32 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:36:57(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
@Franciscohg that really is throwing wood on the fire 🔥🔥🔥🔥 M is expensive and always has been so just pay up! 😀
Must build something
Offline scraigen  
#33 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:39:07(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Top diagram on page 24, relevant text on page 23 for 2200uF recommendation.
http://www.esu.eu/en/dow...f72b31b9eda2534dd1f43f9d

Page 24 also discusses ESU's power pack - lower diagram
Must build something
Offline franciscohg  
#34 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:41:57(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
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Posts: 3,241
Location: Patagonia
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline franciscohg  
#35 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:43:33(UTC)
franciscohg

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Location: Patagonia
For 38 euro at MSL, and non configurable
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Purellum  
#36 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:45:40(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
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Posts: 3,310
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Page 24


Page 24 shows the power pack with "Gold-Cap" capacitors BigGrin

The text you missed regarding the 2200 uF capacitor is on page 23. LOL

Do the calculations.

Per.

Cool

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I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline scraigen  
#37 Posted : 26 February 2019 22:57:18(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
I wasn’t denying that ESU have a similar power pack offering.

Anyway here is a forum member who has achieved significant results with 0.5F capacitance and demos it by blanking out a 6cm length of puko with superb results... https://www.marklin-user...ing-and-buffer-capacitor
Must build something
Offline franciscohg  
#38 Posted : 26 February 2019 23:03:54(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,241
Location: Patagonia
Yes, but with no sound and a little light flicker
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline kiwiAlan  
#39 Posted : 26 February 2019 23:17:57(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Why do you NEED 2F of capacitance?
Why do you need a loco to run all features for 10s?


You need to be able to run the motor for several seconds. All the other bits (including sound) are peanuts power consumption in comparison.

You need a farad or two because the energy is stored at low voltage.

Offline Hannes Porsche  
#40 Posted : 26 February 2019 23:43:52(UTC)
Hannes Porsche

South Africa   
Joined: 08/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Hi, reading the comments above, prompt me to also add my part.

The first post's question is not answered at all. What followed is confusing to say the least. SO.!

You get capacitors and "capacitors" where the only connection is Farads. The same as cars and cars, or lokos and lokos, you get many types.!!.

In the model train world electrolytic capacitors are used to filter/smooth various voltages, for instance to reduce flickering of model train lights. Those capacitors are designed and exposed to higher voltages even up to 1000 Volts or more. Many times they get crudely soldered to train circuits, not knowing the real consequences. Such as Current and Voltages available for them to function properly. This forum has MANY discussions, descriptions and circuit diagrams depicting the above applications, just refer to them.

Super capacitors are totally different. In short it has the characteristics of a battery cell and electrolytic capacitor, combined. And we all know how difficult it is just to understand batteries on its own.
Super capacitors will charge up to 2,7 Volts max. So gone are the stories of 25/27 Volts.! Regarding size, yes you get smaller Super capacitors but will not do the job as described above. They have totally different current and voltage characteristics, that is primarily based on quick charging and high current storage capabilities.


Marklin describes its product as a "VOLTAGE BUFFER", that implies very different applications in the model train environment.
It includes real intelligence that operate with multi protocols. Just looking at the photos its clearly full of electronics. All that for E 40, what a bargain.
So reading the Manual of the 60974 may have enlightened a few, and less criticism would be flying around. This has happened, despite some entries above also prompting the use of the manuals.

I would think that actual experiences of the "Buffer" to be discussed.
Also those that have contacts in Marklin DE to prompt them for more electronic information and clarity. Even articles in the Monthly news letter who knows.
Finally remember patent rights may apply.

HANNES
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Hannes Porsche
Offline Minok  
#41 Posted : 27 February 2019 01:39:49(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,212
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
I wasn’t denying that ESU have a similar power pack offering.

Anyway here is a forum member who has achieved significant results with 0.5F capacitance and demos it by blanking out a 6cm length of puko with superb results... https://www.marklin-user...ing-and-buffer-capacitor


There is no doubt that one can achieve a bridging effect with just a capacitor or two, a diode and a resistor, connected to the U+ (VCC+) and GND of the decoder.

The problem that needs to be solved though, is how to get that to work in the case that there are many such locomotives on the layout all at once.
Then some makers (Märklin for example) go further and allow the user to configure what gets supported by the power pack, and how it behaves, and make it simple for the user to install. Plugging it into the SUSI port is certainly simpler than having he user find places to solder on wires on the board.

Depending on how/where you install just the capacitor/resistor/diode solution that could interfere with decoder programming (by mangling the higher frequency digital signal superimposed on the power voltage - see the warning on the ESU pg 24 about removing that circuit before programming)

If you can do it with just $5 or $10 in simple parts, then just do it. Märklin has to consider simplicity of install, any support they would have to do when users installed it, and what value they could add beyond the simple diode-resistor-capacitor circuit as well.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline perz  
#42 Posted : 03 March 2019 23:42:33(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,577
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
I wasn’t denying that ESU have a similar power pack offering.

Anyway here is a forum member who has achieved significant results with 0.5F capacitance and demos it by blanking out a 6cm length of puko with superb results... https://www.marklin-user...ing-and-buffer-capacitor


No, he used a 4740µF buffer capacitor, that is less than0.005 F. I have achieved significant improvements with just 1000µF, i.e. 0.001F. But the energy stored in a capacitor is the capacity (in Farad) times the voltage (in Volts). Our assumption is that Märklin uses 2 x 1 F capacitors at 2.5 V (the only voltage rating at which you can get them with small enough physical size). This stores the same energy that a 0.25 F capacitor would do at 20 V. That is still 50 times more than in the post you referred to.

I think it would be technically possible to build a 0.25 F capacitor with 20 V rating at the same size as a 2 F capacitor with 2.5 V rating. But nobody needs such a capacitor outside of the model railway industry, and the model railway industry is a too small market for the capacitor manufacturers. So they do not bother about developing it.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by perz
Offline mario54i  
#43 Posted : 04 March 2019 10:03:43(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
But the energy stored in a capacitor is the capacity (in Farad) times the voltage (in Volts). Our assumption is that Märklin uses 2 x 1 F capacitors at 2.5 V (the only voltage rating at which you can get them with small enough physical size). This stores the same energy that a 0.25 F capacitor would do at 20 V. That is still 50 times more than in the post you referred to.


Energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2 C x V^2 , charge is C x V.

Offline bph  
#44 Posted : 04 March 2019 18:00:23(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 335
This is an interesting item, but I wonder how many locomotives that it can be refitted into without replacing the decoder.
Had a quick look in my 39241, but could not see any SUSI interface above the board, and space is a bit tight. Did also notice that charging takes 20 seconds. That indicated also a controlled slow charging, that don’t drain too much if you have several locos with buffers.
Offline scraigen  
#45 Posted : 04 March 2019 18:59:09(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post

scraigen wrote:
Anyway here is a forum member who has achieved significant results with 0.5F capacitance and demos it by blanking out a 6cm length of puko with superb results... https://www.marklin-user...ing-and-buffer-capacitor


No, he used a 4740µF buffer capacitor, that is less than0.005 F. I have achieved significant improvements with just 1000µF, i.e. 0.001F.


My apologies, thanks for the correction, but still makes me wonder if there was a cheaper/smaller solution that M could build in, than the product that they are selling, that would have as you say significant improvements
Must build something
Offline perz  
#46 Posted : 04 March 2019 23:55:29(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,577
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
But the energy stored in a capacitor is the capacity (in Farad) times the voltage (in Volts). Our assumption is that Märklin uses 2 x 1 F capacitors at 2.5 V (the only voltage rating at which you can get them with small enough physical size). This stores the same energy that a 0.25 F capacitor would do at 20 V. That is still 50 times more than in the post you referred to.


Energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2 C x V^2 , charge is C x V.



Yes you are right, my mistake.
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