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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#1 Posted : 22 May 2014 08:00:37(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello,
I like to show how to install a decoder buffer circuit for Hobby models, upgraded with the Märklin mSD ugrade kit 60949.

!CAUTION! This modification is for pure digital usage only. Analog usage is not allowed with this modification or You should add a switch to switch off the capacitor for analog usage and/or use 63V capacitors! !CAUTION!

There is a very good and complete description for the mSD upgrade here from Tom (H0): https://www.marklin-user...er-sets-60948-60949.aspx

Therefore, I reduce my description to the buffer capacitor installation.

The buffer capacitor circuit must be connected to Pin 16 and Pin 20 of the mtc21 connector.

Pin 16 is the orange cable and it is an electrical plus-pole. Pin 20 is the electronic ground (GND, minus-pole). There is no official description about the mtc21 adapter board from Märklin. But I found an description of the connectors here: http://simpledigitalloco....de/hobbylok-m60949.html

Manfred G. Fischer stated, that he isn't sure about the purple GND connector. But it is quite sure, that this is GND (Pin 20).

So, I gave it a try yesterday evening and connected the 2.200µF Elko with load resistor and schottky diode to these connectors (orange and grey cable):

UserPostedImage

As I do it always, I created a tiny 2-pole plug to be abkle to diconnect the buffer capacitor easily. Here, You see the buffer capacitor (which is too big. I have to replace with a smaller one, the case can't be closed) with plug in the upper case and the chassis:
UserPostedImage

The buffer circuit works well, the lights remain for a second on and the motor doesn't stop abruptly. So, when there is a short power interruption, the sound will continue, as well as the light and driving.

I think, it is worth to spend 2€ for this enhancement and fits well to the mSD decoder, easy to install. Here You can see the buffer circuit:
UserPostedImage

R1 = 100 Ohm (minimum 33 Ohm!)
C1 = 2.200µF (470µF - 4.700µF)
D1 = SB130 (30V) or SB140 (40V)

Moritz

Edited by user 02 June 2014 13:36:07(UTC)  | Reason: Detailed part information

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#2 Posted : 22 May 2014 08:29:15(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello,
I added the buffer circuit view.

Moritz
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#3 Posted : 22 May 2014 20:37:36(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Now, here is the modification with two 1.200µF capacitors in parallel:

UserPostedImage
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#4 Posted : 23 May 2014 07:54:56(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
When I placed the top case yesterday, I scratched an LED of the front light. ;-( OK, it was in the bad yellow colour and I already was thinking about a replacement. But now, I had to act and therefore I removed the other two LEDs, too. Then, I took three new warmwhite SMD LED and soldered them on the board:

UserPostedImage

Here are two pictures after the replacement:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

The new LED are more bright then the precious ones. Therefore, I will dimm them a bit. And the light is shining through the grey interior plastik. I will paint it black from the back or place a black stripe.

And, I will put a bit shrinking hose over the fiber optics to limit the light to the outer headlights.

Remark about the buffering
I realized, that with the buffer capacitor the decoder switches of the headlights 1 second after power cut, but the sound will continue even longer, around maybe 3 seconds. This is very nice, because an interrupt of the motor sound attracts attention, a short break in the headlights not so much. Especially, because sound decoder start the full start sequenz after power cut. With the buffer capacitor, this will not happen.
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#5 Posted : 23 May 2014 19:41:30(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post

The buffer circuit works well, the lights remain for a second on and the motor doesn't stop abruptly. So, when there is a short power interruption, the sound will continue, as well as the light and driving.

I think, it is worth to spend 2€ for this enhancement and fits well to the mSD decoder, easy to install. Here You can see the buffer circuit:
UserPostedImage

R1 = 100 Ohm (minimum 33 Ohm!)
C1 = 2.200µF (470µF - 4.700µF)
D1 = SB130 (30V) or SB140 (40V)

I asked the Märklin service about the solder points as I assumed to be GND and U+. I asked, if my assumption is right or wrong and that I like to connect a buffer capacitor.

Today, I got an answer from Märklin: We don't provide such a buffer curcuit and therefore, we can't answer about the connectors."Crying

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#6 Posted : 27 May 2014 00:04:12(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Comparison yellow LED vs. white-warm LED:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I also put now shrinking hose over the fiber optics, to reduce light in the inner lights. It is not so visible on the pictures here but good too see in real.
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Offline jvuye  
#7 Posted : 27 May 2014 06:34:54(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,850
Location: South Western France
Excellent work, well documented and great implementation.
Hats off to you!
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline jeehring  
#8 Posted : 27 May 2014 11:27:15(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post

I asked the Märklin service about the solder points as I assumed to be GND and U+. I asked, if my assumption is right or wrong and that I like to connect a buffer capacitor.

Today, I got an answer from Märklin: We don't provide such a buffer curcuit and therefore, we can't answer about the connectors."Crying




Looking at your photo I'm surprised cause I thought that GND & U+ were Brown wire & black wire....
please, where do these orange & grey wires go to / come from ?
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#9 Posted : 27 May 2014 12:49:21(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post

Looking at your photo I'm surprised cause I thought that GND & U+ were Brown wire & black wire....
please, where do these orange & grey wires go to / come from ?


Hello,
1st, look at this picture:
UserPostedImage

the orange and grey wire go to my own made connector, where I connect the buffer capacitor.

In the circuit picture, I just describe how the buffer capacitor circuit looks like!

2nd, don't confuse the meaning on GND and U+ and the connectors to the rail!

Look at this picture: http://file1.npage.de/00...der/m60949-009-small.jpg

brown and red are the connectors to the rail and the point connectors of the rail.

Orange is the common +-pole (U+), where all AUX and light functions will be connected.

All AUX and light ouputs are electrical Minus-poles!

And GND (violet, mtc21-Pin 20) is usually used only internally. But for the buffer circuit, we need the GND connector.

I hope, it is more clear now.

Moritz
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#10 Posted : 31 May 2014 23:50:43(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Here are two more examples with Trix models:

I only added the buffer circuit, but the mSD upograde will work in the same way. Only the V 80 doesn't provide enough space for the mSD decoder and has no place for the speaker. Only the Trix ER 20 (22097) is prepared for the mSD upgrade.

- Trix V 80 DB (22075)

The Trix V 80 has not much free space, therefore I used a 470µF capacitor, only.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

- Trix ER 20 EVB (22097)

The capacitor here on the picture is too big and must be replaced by a smaler one to fit under the case. I will use one or twi 1.200µF capacitors.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Both locos are similar to the Märklin Hobby Traxx models, ugly Decoder with ugly 3-pole Motor, bad driving behaviour. But it is much better now with the buffer capacitor.

Video: http://youtu.be/ufnOeCQIaTw

Edited by user 01 June 2014 12:55:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Shamu  
#11 Posted : 01 June 2014 04:59:36(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Hi Moritz,

More good work.

Have you thought of using SMD electrolytic capacitors ?

I have some left over 1000uF SMD caps that would be around the 12mm x 12mm size. The 470's I've got are 10x10mm.

There not that much dearer than normal caps although you may have a bit of trouble finding the 1000uF ones.

Excellent work once again though Moritz, giving all of us ideas to emulate.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#12 Posted : 01 June 2014 12:07:45(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Here is the link to the picture of the circuit board connectors: http://www.web-hgh-moba....612093_ZI050225B_con.jpg

U- (violet) and U+ (orange) are the important connectors for the buffer capacitor.

Furthermore, there is one unused AUX port, F3 next to the violet U- connector. It can be used for example for additional light or a Telex coupler. Although it is named as F3 in the picture, it seems to be mapped to F1 function! I didn't test it yet. But in the V 80, I think I will use it for the driver's cabin light.

PS: See here my conversion for the driver's cabin light: https://www.marklin-user...-with-cab-lightning.aspx

Edited by user 03 June 2014 09:06:45(UTC)  | Reason: Added link to the driver's cabin light conversion!

Offline Moritz-BR365  
#13 Posted : 01 June 2014 12:56:47(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Have you thought of using SMD electrolytic capacitors ?

Hello Shamu,
SMD capacitors are not really smaller then "standard" ones. They have only another shape and connectors.

Offline Shamu  
#14 Posted : 02 June 2014 01:25:42(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Have you thought of using SMD electrolytic capacitors ?

Hello Shamu,
SMD capacitors are not really smaller then "standard" ones. They have only another shape and connectors.



I'm not sure as to the lower voltage ratings Moritz but I was thinking in terms of 35V ones. I would not be keen on using 25V and wouldn't even entertain using 16V.

In my leftover stock (10+ year old) from my business the 35V series radial standard 470uF electro caps are 10 x 17mm and the same in the SMD's are 10 x 10mm.

In all fairness I have not had to source any for 10 years so I have no idea the current size of standard radial caps so there is a good chance you are correct as I have not kept up since winding the business down. BigGrin

Shane

Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#15 Posted : 02 June 2014 08:52:54(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello Shane,
I checked in two elektronik stores. SMD capacitors are a bit smaller in volume, but most of them have a bigger diameter.

470µF in SMD is D10xL10,2 and a standard is D10xL16 or D8xL20

1.000µF in SMD is D12,5xL13,5 while a standard is D10xL25

As You can see, the diameter of the standards is at minimum 2 milimeter less then with SMD capacitors. In most cases, this is more important for me.
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#16 Posted : 02 June 2014 09:19:10(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
And here the circuit for the Trix locos, similar to the mSD circuit board:

UserPostedImage

R1 = 100 Ohm ( or minimum 33 Ohm!)
C1 = 470µF (V 80) / 1.200µF (ER 20)
D1 = SB130 (30V) or SB140 (40V)
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 02 June 2014 12:20:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,813
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure as to the lower voltage ratings Moritz but I was thinking in terms of 35V ones. I would not be keen on using 25V and wouldn't even entertain using 16V.
25 V are enough for locos that run digitally only (but without any reserves). Getting the 35 V can't harm IMHO.
If you want to run in analogue AC mode, get capacitors for 50 V for obvious reasons.

The capacitors used by Märklin are the 50 V type - see this post for pictures of an unpacked power pack:
http://stummiforum.de/vi...pic.php?p=952066#p952066

If the capacitor buffers the 5 V line only (Anti Alzheimer), a capacitor for 6.3 V will be enough. Such a capacitor won't provide power to the motor, it just prevents the decoder from forgetting the current speed setting.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Shamu  
#18 Posted : 02 June 2014 12:50:25(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Cheers Tom,

I have been trying to find that page for weeks but could not remember how I found it.

Yes if only trying to buffer the 5V line the 6.3V caps would be more than adequate for the job. And I agree if providing backup power for the decoder in general if it was to also be used on AC I would certainly use 50V series caps and in fact would more than likely go 63V.

Guess its a hangover from the old uni days, design for the minimum then Double it.

Shane
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#19 Posted : 02 June 2014 13:04:51(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
I'm preety sure, that my loco will never be driven on AC analog, therefore, 25V is enough for me. Sure, 35V would have more safety, but in worst case, I will have to replace a capacitor in 10 or 20 years.

If space is no matter, sure I could use 35V or 50V versions.
Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 02 June 2014 13:27:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,813
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
I'm preety sure, that my loco will never be driven on AC analog, therefore, 25V is enough for me.
Yeah. But others reading this thread should be warned that 25 V are not enough for analogue operation (40 V is minimum for that, so 50 V is the best standard type).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#21 Posted : 02 June 2014 13:33:13(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
You are right! There should be a warning that this modification is for pure digital usage. Analog usage is not allowed with this modification!

I will add this in the initial posting.

Thanks,
Moritz
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