Hi guys!

On a recent trip to my local hobby shop I picked up a used Br 64, 39646. It was only about 130 euros and showed only moderate use. So I thought, why not?

After some tinkering with CV values, some cleaning up of the excess oil that the previous owner had bestowed upon it and a good run on a temporary oval track. I got it to run pretty good for a 14 year old loco. The running characteristics must have been extremely good at the time.

However, the itch to put a modern ESU loksound decoder into this beautiful loco is getting stronger and stronger. But before committing i’d like to hear if there is any problems you know of when doing the conversion? What should I consider? The C-sine armature is a bit different from a normal DC-motor.

Kind regards!

Emil

Would an ESU decoder even operate a drum style C-sine motor? Did ESU ever use one?

Thanks Jean!

I´d lie if I said I was a true Märklinist...I run everything I like, both DC and AC. But I love the Märklin brand and the feeling I get from their product. Their trains are always solid and most of the time they run perfectly just as they come out the box. Some CV setting-work to fit your preferences and you are good to go. The command-stations are also impressive. Especially the Mobile Station. With the latest update it´s become such a competent tool for controlling your layout. Seeing what you get, I´d also say most Märklin products are good value for money compared to many offerings from other manufacturers.

The suggestion to go with the MSD3 decoder is really interesting. I´ve been wanting to try the Märklin decoders and see what possibilites they can give. I have the ESU lokprogrammer and quite alot of experience with the ESU-Ecosystem. But I have never tried those decoders in a loco with C-sine armature. Hence, my question.



Yep, they can. They use AUX 3 And AUX 4 as additional controls for the complex electronics of the C-sine motors. Thats why there is Loksound MKL and Lokpilot MKL decoders with "amplified"
Aux 3 and 4.



Thanks! Have you tried this yourself? Did the new decoder improve running?
I have the Lokprogrammer and feel comfortable using it.

Thanks for the correction!

The Lokprogrammer has ”automated” much of the CV-setting for the C-sine motor. If you choose the preset for C-Sine in the ”motor-menu” it changes all the neccessary motor-CV’s. Then you change the function mapping for: Stop,Forward, Stop, Reverse, Drive, Forward and Drive, Reverse to always use Aux 3 and Aux 4.

Hopefully I can tinker a bit with this tomorrow. I’ll read out CV 8 of the decoder in the loco. If the value is 151, then we know that it’s an ESU. 😜 I’ll post my findings here.

The loco is made in 2010 according to the Märklin archives.

If there is enough space in the engine, you could also consider to install an additional decoder, an ESU Loksound 5 Fx, and a speaker. This decoder has no motor outputs, but when configured using the same address and protocol (MM/DCC/Mfx) as the origin decoder, it will provide sound. Of course, running capabilities will not be changed.

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So, I’ve spent some time today tinkering with this. Unfortunately I managed to get the wires for the speaker damaged when reassembling the loco, this shorted out the decoder and I suspect, fried the sound module of my only MKL decoder. The loco runs, but no sound.

The lokprogrammer reports that the sound memory of the decoder is (- - -) not 128 MB as it should and the bar showing how much sound memory you have left is marked red.
So….yeah. Fried…

Much of why i tinker with this is to learn. And something I’ve found out is that the C-sine motors require a MKL decoder with powered Aux 3 and 4 to work.
A ”regular” DCC decoder can’t drive the motor even if the loco has an MTC 21 interface. The sound will work but the motor won’t react. Even if the CV settings are identical to that of a MKL decoder. I have tried several regular DCC Loksound decoders I have. The results were the same with all of them.

A new MKL decoder is ordered and hopefully with me in a few days time.

Even if the sound did´nt work on my only MKL decoder. The drive module still does. And boy does it drive that little loco. Even if it´s good with the factory decoder you really can´t compare to this.
I have a number of locos with Maxon motors and I´d say the performance of the C-sine when driven by the Loksound 5 is very close to these. Unbelievably smooth and in speedstep 1 it´s barely moving, I really mean barely. Like, 1 cm takes 6-7 seconds to move. It´s also pretty judder-free compared to before. The only thing I miss (being used to DCC and DC-motors) is the ability to work with the PID-regulation to dial out the last kinks. But for a 14 year old loco I really can´t fault it. I´m very happy!

As for the factory decoder. It´s very much the same one suggested by Jonas in a previous post. Lokpilot v. 3.0 M4. See the image below.




To be continued...

It definitely can PeFu. I have been using a (slightly damaged) Loksound decoder to run my 39646 today. To work as intended though, it has to be a special version of the ESU Decoder called MKL (as in Märklin). Any Lokpilot or Loksound does’nt work unfortunately.

As I wrote before: the non-MKL version has the logic outputs.



Yep, that's right.
But in the case of a C Sine motor, the motor control of the decoder is disabled, so there should be no difference between v3 and v5 when it comes to motor control.
Sound is better, light functions have been improved - but motor control stays the same.

You are correct for a standard motor, but the motor control for a C-Sine is done on a separate board, the decoder just tells it the speed to go and it does the rest. The motor control PID in the decoder has no effect on the C-Sine because that is all done in the separate board.

sorry to say, but it seems like you have it the wrong way. the SDS sine motor controller needs AUX 3/4 on logic level voltage. I guess that when you activated the sine motor in the programmer the ESU software put the AUX 3/4 on logic level automatically?. if you are actually using amplified aux 3/4 you risk blowing the sine controller. so I strongly recommend that you check the AUX 3/4 and make sure they are set to logic level.
This is described in both Marklin and ESU decoder manuals.
(if the board e.g only needs AUX 4 on logic level voltage the other aux is free to be used on other things as mentioned by others above)

ang e.g. Lippe simply says the MKL decoder is Not suitable for:- all Softdrive sine motors https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Digital/Decoder+with+sound/ESU%2D58449/gb/modell_311386.html

When replacing older decoders with new it's also recommended to check the speaker, as older speakers are often 100 Ohms. If it is 100 Ohm, you need to replace it with an 8 or 4 Ohm speaker.

Hi
I have also made my share of mistakes ;).

I'm no expert on ESU decoders, yes I have some but only use mSD3/mLD3 for retrofitting/upgrade.
But keep in mind that there is a difference between logic functions and AUX logic level voltage. So I don't know what CV's that control AUX logic level on ESU decoders.

The MKL decoders are wrong for C Sine locos that require AUX 3 or AUX 4 to be logic level. That's true for early C Sine models, but was no longer required for later models.

Certain C Sine locos cannot run with the MKL decoder variant, no matter how you set the CVs.

Yes it's true with different variants of settings for individual models

39894 (2008/2009) 441 002-3 HR "Croft" - logic outputs needs even for AUX3 to get the high beam to work

37940 (2008/2009) T44 - needs only logic outputs on AUX4 and AUX3 is free to use
37941 (2009/2010) T44 - needs only logic outputs on AUX4 and AUX3 is free to use
37943 (2014/2015) T44 - needs only logic outputs on AUX4 and AUX3 is free to use (M replace PCB and motor after this model)

Perhaps there is a reason why they chose to make it possible to have different settings on the outputs in mSD3 decoders.

Its 14 years ago sense I replace my first T44 for ESU LS4 M4 but now all has got mSD3 decoder....

It's ESU original sound project that also Jeco put inside their models.

Hi everyone,

The new decoder is now in the loco and it works beautifully. I´m very happy. I used the non-MKL decoder, the sound quality is good and the running is also a lot better.
As we´ve discussed, the decoder is running the loco without BEMF though. So the steam chuffs don´t sync with the wheels turning like it would on a loco with a traditional DC motor.

I’ll check if I can adjust this with the ”chuff-settings” in the Lokprogrammer.

Another remedy to fix this is fitting a hall sensor and magnets to one of the wheels. Any tips on fitting a sensor like this will be very much appreciated. One thing I´m thinking about is how close the sensor has to be to the magnet? Do they have to pass a special side of the sensor? Does polarity of the magnet make a difference or will the sensor react to the field regardless of polarity?

Thanks for all the help so far!

In the latest locomotives with SDS motors, the driver is located on the decoder board so replacing the decoder is possible, as long as you configure it properly.
In locomotives with the older original C-sine motor, the driver was often integrated with the decoder, so if broken, you need a new decoder and driver.
(note there are some variations, and remember to also check the Speaker ohm)

3'rd party C-sine drivers can be purchased from rail4you.ch
https://www.rail4you.ch/remotorisierung/dsm-2-0-der-treiber
(note that a power pack is often a "requirement")

Hello,
Nice video! Congratulations on your success. Nice work.

I have a BR64 (39640), which also has the SoftDrive C-Sine motor and have been contemplating replacing that old MFX decoder with a LokSound 5. You have given me hope that this could be easily accomplished! If I understand correctly, you used a standard ESU LokSound 5 decoder (58419: "LokSound 5 DCC/MM/SX/M4 "blank decoder", 21MTC NEM6660") for your conversion. What "project" from the ESU website did you use as a starting point for your customization?

Thanks for sharing your learning process. Cheers,
Andry

Hello,

Thank you so much for the quick reply. I appreciate the detailed explanation you provided -- it will make the conversion so much easier! Now I need to order a decoder.

Cheers,
Andry