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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#1 Posted : 06 February 2015 23:40:31(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Hi!

It's been quite a while since I posted here now. Unfortunately life has a tendency to get in the way sometimes..
Anyhow, over the course of the last six months I have made some new acquisition to the collection and they have all turned out well. The latest purchase was the Märklin 39540 Gottardo. A lovely set if I may say so. The seller sold it as untested, but for a very decent prize so I decided to take the plunge anyway. The reason for the set being sold untested is that it was his late father's and he did not have the knowledge of how to test it.

I received the set today. After having unpacked it and seen that it was in mint condition I happily put it on the tracks. No reaction. Recalled it should have an mfx decoder and after double checking I realized that maybe the set was set to take power from the catenary. Before opening the set up I decided to do a manual "find" with the MS2. It actually found a loco on adress 03. Dcc default adress?

The train ran in one direction without any issues. Interior lighting/headlights/taillights worked. However no sounds or change of direction. Unsure of what to do I decided to reset the decoder by writing value 8 to CV 8. Bad idea. Result? Train is dead. Only thing that works is interior light/headlight/taillight and direction switchover. However, the relay does not click.

I opened the set and I realized that the previous owner has rebuilt the set. The decoder has the markings "LPV40" and "0-2-4". I believe this is a lokpilot v4 without mfx and sound? Also, the speaker seems to have been exchanged and is soldered directly to the MTC 21 pin interface. It would seem that the previous owner had fitted a loksound decoder and programmed it to work with the sinus motor. Why that decoder is not in this set, is a mystery.

I have come to the conclusion that aux 3 and 4 seem to be required as always on and also there are some special CV values that need to be written for the sinus motor to work? I've also understood from various sites that the MS2 and DCC programming do no not go hand in hand. It only works (half the times), when enabling only the DCC protocol.

So my situation is I have a 39540 in pristine condition that I cannot run. What is my best course of action? I got a great deal on the set and knew the risks, so no problems there. Can you please advice me on what CV values should be written, and how? Unfortunately I have only an MS2 to write CV's with. Should I get another decoder? I am thankful for any advice!

Kind regards,
Oliver

Edited by user 08 February 2015 00:32:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

SBB Era IV - VI
Online H0  
#2 Posted : 07 February 2015 08:05:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,153
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
I've also understood from various sites that the MS2 and DCC programming do no not go hand in hand.
DCC programming works well with the MS2. It's just the C sine motor driver board that can lead to problems - with all DCC controllers.
Programming on Main (POM) will probably help to set everything up - except for the address.

Decoder manuals are available from esu.eu.

I don't have the Gottardo.
Probably it needs one AUX to be always on for the C sine motor driver and another AUX to drive the switch-over of the pickup shoes.
Maybe an owner of the 39540 can report the AUX configuration of the original mfx decoder for you.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#3 Posted : 07 February 2015 11:54:03(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
I've also understood from various sites that the MS2 and DCC programming do no not go hand in hand.
DCC programming works well with the MS2. It's just the C sine motor driver board that can lead to problems - with all DCC controllers.
Programming on Main (POM) will probably help to set everything up - except for the address.

Decoder manuals are available from esu.eu.

I don't have the Gottardo.
Probably it needs one AUX to be always on for the C sine motor driver and another AUX to drive the switch-over of the pickup shoes.
Maybe an owner of the 39540 can report the AUX configuration of the original mfx decoder for you.


Thanks for your reply Tom.

I have not really understood the difference between program cv and POM. Sometimes the value I program does not seem to stick. I ca put the decoder in another loco with 21 pin interface but without a sinus motor. Would this remedy this issue? Should i be using cv program or pom cv option when programming in this case?

I have dowloaded the manual from esus webpage. There is a lot of info about how to program the decoder for a sinus motor so I will give it a try again once I get back home.

The only thing I don't really understand is how to set aux 3 and 4 to stay on?
As I take it aux 4 is for the sinus driver board and aux 3 is for he swotch over relay. But which values and which cvs should I use?

Kind regards,
Oliver
SBB Era IV - VI
Offline biedmatt  
#4 Posted : 07 February 2015 13:21:45(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hello Oliver,

I hope you enjoy a challenge, but if you are patient and persevere, you will get there.

I can not help you with CV specifics. I bought my LokProgrammer when I bought my first ESU decoder. The only CVs I change on the track is max speed and the two that control time between steam chuffs. But I do have sinus drive and dual slider sets 39080 and 39100.

Until I started researching an answer for you, I would have said the slider changeover relay will require two aux functions, but the program I have for 39100 says otherwise.

The decoder will have four automatic functions that are direction and running or stopped dependent. FS(f) and FF(f) are forward running and stopped. I do not remember which is running or stopped, but that doesn't matter as you will use the same functions in both. FS(r) and FF(r) are the functions for reverse. This is where you configure the slider changeover and activate the sinus drive power function.

For 39080:
FS(f) and FF(f) have aux 2 (Sinus drive power) and aux 3 (front slider) on
FS(r) and FF(r) have aux 2 and aux 4 (rear slider) on
aux 1 is interior lighting

For 39100:
FS(f) and FF(f) have aux 3 (sinus drive power) and aux 4 (front slider) on
FS(r) and FF(r) has aux 3 on
aux 1 is the table lamps
aux 2 is not used

As you can see, M is not consistent, but I expect one of the above configurations will work. I have found that not all sinus motored lokos need an aux output on to power the drive. Apparently in those lokos, they have the circuit board configured to do that without the need of an aux output. A wrong configuration will not damage the decoder, it just won't work as you need it. Edit: chapter 12 of the manual I reference below explains how to configure CVs for functions. I didn't look to close though as the LokProgrammer figures all that out for me. I just tick the boxes for the function I want under the function buttons and automatic functions. This is where LokProgrammer truly shines. I do not have to add up a bunch of bit values and hope I understood them correctly and did my sums properly. If you think you'll typically use ESU decoders, then buy the LokProgrammer now. You will understand once you start reading chapter 12.

There are some other configurations needed to make the sinus drive work. Enable SUSI (CV124 bit 3) and for forward and reverse running trim (CVs 66 and 95), you typically need a value of 128 for both fields. Without a trim setting, some sinus drives will not reach max speed. Turn motor load control off (CV49 bit 0). The sinus drive handles that. You will also most likely need to install a 470uf 25V capacitor. The sinus drive will typically cause an overload in the decoder. It will run, go into overload and coast down, then reset and run. Over and over. Page 26 of the LokSound decoder manual, Edition 4, May 2012, shows where to connect the capacitor. Use the diagram at top right. You do not need the diode, just connect the capacitor to U+ and GND. Observe polarity. Pages 49 and 50 of the manual referenced above also explains it. Note that they say aux4 will be the sinus drive power. This is (usually) correct for a lokomotive,. For your triebwagen, probably not. As you can see in the function maps above, M is consistent with their inconsistency.

The final hurdle is the Sinus drive POM interference. This may be a Catch-22 for you since your only programming option is in the loko and on the track. When the sinus drive is powered, as shown above you will likely have an aux on to power the sinus drive, it then (usually) causes interference with programming commands and the command you transmit to configure the decoder will not be recognized by the decoder. Your only option is to remove the decoder from the loko and program it with an ESU decoder tester (item # 51900) or a 21 pin decoder adapter (item # 51967) and wire connections 20 and 21 so you can connect the adapter to your MS2 and program the decoder.

If none of the two above aux configurations work, then you are stuck with trial and error. Then I would suggest you map the aux functions to four function buttons, one each. Then you can turn on and off aux functions individually and build a table for the configuration you will need. If you are lucky, you may be able to hear the changeover relay click back and forth and determine which function(s) control it. Note that you will likely need two aux functions on- sinus power and slider control, to make the loko run. Your last and best hope is that someone here has the set and an ESU decoder tester. They could install the M decoder in the decoder tester and the LEDs which indicate if a function is on will quickly and accurately reveal the proper configuration. This is what I do when I remove and replace the M decoder.

Good luck,

Link to ESU decoder manuals:
http://www.esu.eu/en/dow...anuals/digital-decoders/
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#5 Posted : 07 February 2015 19:59:58(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Matt,

Thank you for your reply. Very valuable reading! I am fairly sure I have now managed to make all the changes except for activating aux 3 and 4 as you describe in the beginning of your post. I have studied the manual and I simply don't understand how the CV is to be calculated.

I am going to start mapping the aux functions to the function buttons now instead, to see if I can get it to work that way. Then I should be able to work out what CV has to be written and where.

What still strikes me as strange is why the previous owner would mount a regular lopi v4 and not a loksound decoder. Clearly the speaker has been replaced with the ESU speaker and the wiring redone.

I will post again once I have an update.

Oliver
SBB Era IV - VI
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Online H0  
#6 Posted : 07 February 2015 20:03:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,153
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
I have not really understood the difference between program cv and POM.
When programmed on the programming track, the decoder has to send an acknowledgement - at this point the C sine driver may interfere.
POM is like radio - controller sends instructions, but does not care if anybody's listening.

Putting the decoder into another loco may help - but 21MTC configuration is not consistent and this could kill decoder or loco board or both if you put the decoder into the wrong loco.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#7 Posted : 07 February 2015 23:28:09(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Just got it to run! So I'm almost there! (Will keep this post updated for future reference and as a source for others that might need this information)

Using the help provided here (ESU lokpilot V4 manual, sinus motor setup info) I successfully managed to get the motor settings correct.
Then found this info (will paste it here for future reference) that helped me activate Aux3 and Aux4. However only Aux 3 seem to be needed for the set to function. I take it this means that the external voltage for the sinus motor driver board is not needed in this model. Aux 3 activates the pickup shoe relay:

CV32 = 2
CV31=16

Aux3
CV426=16
CV442=16

Aux4 (apparently required by some sinus motor driver boards for motor to function, however deemed unnecessary for 39540)
CV458=32
CV474=32

The settings above work fine and the set runs when function 3 is activated.

CV6=255. Result = increased top speed (will decrease later).

CV3=0 (max 63) (will increase later)
CV4=0 (max 63) (will increase later)

Changed speed steps to 126 from decoder default with MS2.

Now, how to map Aux 3 to always be on? any suggestions?
SBB Era IV - VI
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 08 February 2015 00:35:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,976
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
Just got it to run! So I'm almost there! (Will keep this post updated for future reference and as a source for others that might need this information)

Using the help provided here (ESU lokpilot V4 manual, sinus motor setup info) I successfully managed to get the motor settings correct.
Then found this info (will paste it here for future reference) that helped me activate Aux3 and Aux4. However only Aux 3 seem to be needed for the set to function. I take it this means that the external voltage for the sinus motor driver board is not needed in this model. Aux 3 activates the pickup shoe relay:

CV32 = 2
CV31=16

Aux3
CV426=16
CV442=16

Aux4 (apparently required by some sinus motor driver boards for motor to function, however deemed unnecessary for 39540)
CV458=32
CV474=32

The settings above work fine and the set runs when function 3 is activated.

CV6=255. Result = increased top speed (will decrease later).

CV3=0 (max 63) (will increase later)
CV4=0 (max 63) (will increase later)

Changed speed steps to 126 from decoder default with MS2.

Now, how to map Aux 3 to always be on? any suggestions?


On the Loksound Yahoo list, the guy who has done a lot of work porting the Loksound requirements to JMRI keeps telling people to download the Lokprogrammer software (it is free from the ESU web site) and looking at the function matrix. After you make changes you can evidently print out the changed CVs so you can take them over to the train room and work through what needs changing.

Another possibility would be if you have an Intellibox with a computer connection to load JMRI on the computer and work through the matrix from there. Dave has made great strides in making the JMRI interface for Loksound decoders (and by analogy Lokpilot) look very much like the Lokprogrammer interface.

But the problem is that there are so many possible variations the you do need to look at the matrix to figure out what needs to be changed and then to get it to tell you what CVs need changing.

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Offline biedmatt  
#9 Posted : 08 February 2015 00:54:24(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I forgot about the CV screen Alan, probably because I do not need it, but that is correct. You do not need the LokProgrammer to download and play with the software. After you get the configuration you want, pick the CV screen in the column on the left and you can see all the CVs.

Link to LokProgrammer software:
http://www.esu.eu/en/dow.../software/lokprogrammer/
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline PeFu  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2018 01:46:54(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 897
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
Just got it to run! So I'm almost there! (Will keep this post updated for future reference and as a source for others that might need this information)

Using the help provided here (ESU lokpilot V4 manual, sinus motor setup info) I successfully managed to get the motor settings correct.
Then found this info (will paste it here for future reference) that helped me activate Aux3 and Aux4. However only Aux 3 seem to be needed for the set to function. I take it this means that the external voltage for the sinus motor driver board is not needed in this model. Aux 3 activates the pickup shoe relay:

CV32 = 2
CV31=16

Aux3
CV426=16
CV442=16

Aux4 (apparently required by some sinus motor driver boards for motor to function, however deemed unnecessary for 39540)
CV458=32
CV474=32

The settings above work fine and the set runs when function 3 is activated.

CV6=255. Result = increased top speed (will decrease later).

CV3=0 (max 63) (will increase later)
CV4=0 (max 63) (will increase later)

Changed speed steps to 126 from decoder default with MS2.

Now, how to map Aux 3 to always be on? any suggestions?


I'm bumping this thread, as I have purchased this great Gottardo from Oliver some time ago! Cool When testing the railcar today, initially I had some problems changing settings, as the CS2 couldn't read or write CV:s. I couldn't e.g. change the default address "3". Confused However, on the net I found that there could be problems with ESU decoders on CS2, unless one temporary change the CS2 on SETUP > TRACK > GLEISFORMAT FUR LOKS to "DCC" only. After this, I could read and write all CV:s. As I had reset the decoder, I changed all the CV:s according to Olivers instructions above. Now for the reason I'm bumping this thread, for documentation purposes only: The railcar was running, but it was only crawling! Confused Again, on the net, I found out that the reason was the Softdrive Sinus motor! I changed the CV56, "Operating range of load control", to "0".

Now the railcar is working great! Drool Later, I will probably change for a Loksound decoder...
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
Offline franciscohg  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2018 04:43:33(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,243
Location: Patagonia
Hi, if you change the deco i would strongly reccomend to use a LSV4M4 if you have CS2. All programming becomes really easy, i have done that in several C sinus locos and they work almost on the run. And you can always deactivate mfx on the CS2 and program as DCC.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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