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Offline Bryan  
#1 Posted : 26 February 2020 07:10:17(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Dear All

I am currently trying to upgrade a Marklin 39563 crocodile to a 60977 mSD/3 decoder. These locos have a C-Sinus motor, however it is the later version with the small vertical C-Sinus motor. Also the original decoder is the later 21 pin type.
The 60977 instructions denote the following:

CV52 must be ‘1’ for C-Sinus type motors.
CV56 must be ‘0’ for control influence.
CV51 is either 24 or 0
AUX3 is set to ‘S’ status
AUX4 is set to ‘F’ running

When using the both the dPT software or the CS 2 (60214) I have set the following correctly, both have latest software.
CV52 must be ‘1’ for C-Sinus type motors.
CV56 must be ‘0’ for control influence.

However the remaining 3 parameters, I cannot locate to set correctly in either of the progamming tools. These are
CV51 is either 24 or 0
AUX3 is set to ‘S’ status
AUX4 is set to ‘F’ running

Can anybody tell me how to set these three CV's, which key stokes or menues in either the Programming tool or the CS2.Also is the CS3+ better for such jobs.
The Marklin instructions are very cryptic with all their digital software and need help.
The only decoder functionality is the front and rear lights work when setting the direction.
Has anyone successfully used an mSD/3 decoder successfully on a 21 pin loco with SDS.

Thanking for any assistance.

Best regards
David

Edited by moderator 10 July 2021 11:21:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline ktsolias  
#2 Posted : 26 February 2020 08:30:03(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 540
Location: Athens
Hi
AUX 4 must be on "Logical level" and "always on"

You can do that with the mDT3 software

https://www.marklin-user...-conversion-to-Sound-mfx

Costas
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Offline Bryan  
#3 Posted : 26 February 2020 11:14:50(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Dear Costas

I have read your posting. Within it, it states also that AUX 4 must be on logical level and always on. The problem is I cannot find where the 'AUX4' is displayed in the mDecoderTool3 screen displays. Would it be under the Functions menu somewhere.

Thanks for your help.
David
Offline ktsolias  
#4 Posted : 26 February 2020 11:56:56(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 540
Location: Athens
Yes David...
You are right: everything is hidden, complicated and not documented...

Here we are

1st step: Decoder - Decoder setting conceal - AUX 4 logic check

mdT3.jpg

2nd step: Functions - Special functions - Always - check

mdT3_01.jpg

3rd step: Functions - Always - Action for always - Outputs + - Output 4

mdT3_02.jpg

I think that is more clear now

You can't use AUX 4 for anything else

Regards and good luck

Costas

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Offline Bryan  
#5 Posted : 26 February 2020 12:10:16(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Dear Costas

I will try that, and thank you.

Best regards
David
Bowral NSW
Offline Bryan  
#6 Posted : 27 February 2020 06:27:08(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Dear Costas

I have tried the decoder settings and correctly, the locomotive is now running. A great piece of information.

The front and rear lights work and reverse on direction. It does have a red heart light, this does not work with the new decoder only with the old decoder.

The next problem now is the sound functions do not work. This crocodile 39563 has a special small sound board mounted in the cab. It also has two small speakers connected in series. Does anyone know why these units had a special separate sound board? The main issue is how do we get the sound to work. Do the speakers need replacing. Do we need the extra original sound board in the circuitry.

The loco just for added information still has the original decoder mounting board and wiring to the LED lights. The whole aim was to plug in the new mSD/3 21 pin decoder and use all existing components. I expect there are a number of Marklin runners that will undertake this procedure sometime.

Best regards
David
Offline ktsolias  
#7 Posted : 27 February 2020 08:57:51(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 540
Location: Athens
Dear David

I am happy that I helped you

For the sound: Remove the old sound module and connect the speakers directly to the decoder (The speakers must be 4-8Ω)

Τhe problem with the lights is that the Swiss lights system is used. They need special mapping and I think that in this loco is a special board for the light mapping

Any way some photos of the inside of the loco and of the PCB will help a lot to see what exactly happen.

The 3956x locos use a special PCB the 606218 or 606228 for the lihgts

Regards

Costas
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 27 February 2020 09:01:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,293
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bryan Go to Quoted Post
It does have a red heart light, this does not work with the new decoder only with the old decoder.
To use the light and sound functions as with the original decoder, you have to make sure AUX1 through AUX3 do the same as with the old decoder.
Plug the old decoder in and check the function mapping with a Central Station.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bryan  
#9 Posted : 27 February 2020 11:53:22(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
39563 loco soft sine 2.jpg

Thank you Costas and Tom.
I have attached a photo of the crocodile chassis displaying the wiring and decoder mounting board.
From the original mounting board, 3 wires are taken to the sound board. These are orange, white and black.
From the sound board two white wires go two the speakers.
Which of the three input wires should be used to connect to the speaker.

Also a great idea about mapping the AUX1 etc from the original board. The idea could be used for matching other functionality in future projects as well.

Best regards to both of you
David
Offline ktsolias  
#10 Posted : 27 February 2020 13:44:48(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 540
Location: Athens
David

You are in a very complicated situation

1st Don't touch the PCB of the Decoder 21 pin mount and the driving electronics for the motor
2nd The PCB under the sound module is the follow

kroko-o_25_B.jpg

Check the No on the boards
This is for the Swiss lights changeover in cooperation with the correct mapping of the AUX fx used to control the lights plus of course the f0 f/r

3rd: For the speakers you can take away speakers and PCB and use one of the speakers included with the decoder connecting the speaker directly on the 21 pin pins for the sound (are the two lower ones on the left side (the side with the 10 pins).

Of course you need experience to do all that. Have in mind that any problem with the main board means that the loco is off forever!!! There are no spares available.

May be is better to leave this beautiful kroko as it is with the original tooling.

Otherwise you my find yourself with a beautiful display crocodille

Costas
Offline Bart  
#11 Posted : 27 February 2020 23:32:38(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by: Bryan Go to Quoted Post


From the original mounting board, 3 wires are taken to the sound board. These are orange, white and black.

Which of the three input wires should be used to connect to the speaker.

Best regards to both of you
David


Just to clarify: the 39563 had a single sound function, generated by a separate sound board, not a sound decoder.
The board is driven by a pulse from a regular Aux output of the (non-sound) decoder (which, at that time, likely was Esu LP3-based).
So the 3 wires to the sound board are +, -, and Aux; and NOT speaker leads.
Now that you have a sound decoder, get rid of the sound board and remove the 3 leads from the decoder board, they are useless.
Your new speaker should be connected to the dedicated speaker output of your new sound decoder, not to an Aux output.
Those pads should be indicated in your mSD/3 manual; they should be present on the original decoder board, even when no sound decoder was installed.

Also, don't use the old speaker, as it is likely 100Ω (or in this case, a 2x50Ω double speaker).
AFAIK, at those times, M* sound decoders were Loksound3 based (100Ω), and this separate sound board probably as well.
You may want to check the printing on the speaker. Newer sound decoders require 4-8Ω speakers, as provided with the mSD/3.

The Swiss light configuration, including the 1 white / 1 red tail light switching, is provided by the separate 606218 circuit board. This should remain wired to the original decoder board (and the leds) as it was.
As Costas mentioned, the Aux mapping of the original decoder should be copied, as this is required to drive the 606218 board for the specific light configurations.
*Bart
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Offline Bryan  
#12 Posted : 28 February 2020 11:33:59(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Dear Bart and Costas
Firstly must I say I find both of your replies fascinating. The bottom line with this project is to find out what is happening within the 39563 locomotive at an electronic and digital level. I had no idea why Marklin put all these different PC boards in the loco and what functions they actually performed. When I first started the project I thought it would be a basic decoder swap and with decoder CV changes. It is not, and agree with Costas, the crocodile mechanism as originally setup in the articulated chassis, is on an engineering level, quite beautiful. I will probably not now go through with the conversion. I will though attempt a conversion with the notes taken, later. This would be on one that has had the driver board already broken and the only alternative is a conversion.
Another question I could ask is, how have you both learnt this depth of detail about Marklin, it is not in any written form anywhere. So once again thanks for sharing this knowledge, I am sure others would agree.
Best regards
David
Offline xxup  
#13 Posted : 08 May 2021 12:02:10(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
I am working on one of these at the moment, but things are not going too well.

I managed to get the sound working by soldering the speaker that is supplied with the mSD3/3 kit directly on to the tabs next to the male decoder connector on the original board.. A big tick here.

I also managed to get the motor working with the AUX4 trick mentioned in a post above this one. The loco runs really smoothly, but it has a very low top speed. So, I need help fixing this problem.

I tried to follow the instructions to set CV7 to 77 (for the auto-calibration), but I can't find a way to actually add or access a CV that is not listed in the configuration part of the decoder edit section on the CS3. In fact, I can't seem to work out how to do it on the Marklin decoder programmer either. ESU make this stuff so easy for the user.

The last problem is the Swiss rear light. Part of the problem is my unfamiliarity with the CS3 (the other guy owns this). We could not read the original decoder with the Marklin programmer, but we could read it with my ECOS. The eCOS stated that it was using AUX3, so I set the new decoder to use OutPut3, using the Marklin programmer, but it seems that something else is needed to get the light working. Any ideas?

Edited by user 12 July 2021 13:44:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Adrian
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#14 Posted : 08 May 2021 15:26:55(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,765
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I tried to follow the instructions to set CV7 to 77 (for the auto-calibration), but I can't find a way to actually add or access a CV that is not listed in the configuration part of the decoder edit section on the CS3.In fact, I can't seem to work out how to do it on the Marklin decoder programmer either.ESU make this stuff so easy for the user.


Adrian ,on the CS3 you have a direct screen to adjust the maximum speed. On the CS2 the screen presentation is slightly different but you have it also.
The last line in English should read Maximum speed Here set to 255 the maximum speed.
LokEdit Einrichten.png
On the ECOS it may be less clear. The CV is CV 5 must be set to 255 for max speed.

Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The last problem is the Swiss rear light. Part of the problem is my unfamiliarity with the CS3 (the other guy owns this). We could not read the original decoder with the Marklin programmer, but we could read it with my ECOS. The eCOS stated that it was using AUX3, so I set the new decoder to use OutPut3, using the Marklin programmer, but it seems that something else is needed to get the light working. Any ideas?


With a CS3 or CS2 it is easy and you don't need a programmer (I am sorry if you don't have a CS2 or CS3).
The idea is to add to an exiting function, 2 physical outputs (one of which is the Swiss rear light
Lok Konfiguration BR 01 138 CV-Funktion Edit-F8.png
In this case, you must edit F0 (Headlights) and add another output (AUX1 for instance) and set it as a dimmer and active in both directions.
Then you must wire each lower right beam to be controlled by AUX1 (in this example).
Finish.
Sadly I don't know how to do it with an ECOS
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline xxup  
#15 Posted : 08 May 2021 23:09:46(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Thanks for the info Jean.

The top speed was already set to 255 and I have checked the running gear. The loco runs faster with the original decoder.. So there must be something else. Does every new loco need to be calibrated by the CS3?

Ah so I need to link the F1 function to the F2 function for the Swiss lights to work.. Okay.. I will try this next weekend..

I only used the eCOS, because I could not get the Marklin programmer to read the original decoder.. My friend has the CS3 and the loco..
Adrian
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Offline bph  
#16 Posted : 08 May 2021 23:42:55(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post


Does every new loco need to be calibrated by the CS3?



Its recommended :)

Here is a screenshot from the cs3, just replace the 3 with 77. pres ok, and give it some speed as described in the manual.
cs3_screenshot_2021_05_08_21_29_39.png

the decoder should also respond to CV 7 command in MM and DCC mode. (also works with the old 6021)
Offline xxup  
#17 Posted : 09 May 2021 00:27:57(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
That's nuts!

I did see the -/7, but I thought it was just some weird code for the firmware version.

How on earth is anyone supposed to work that one out? Marklin make great trains, but they really need to outsource their software development to another organisation (e.g. ESU) that know what they are doing!

@bph -> Thank you for sharing the screenshot. There is no way I could have worked that one out for myself.
Adrian
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bph
Offline clapcott  
#18 Posted : 09 May 2021 03:15:12(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,337
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
That's nuts!
How on earth is anyone supposed to work that one out?
Read the section titled "Automatic Calibration for All Protocols" on page 30 of the manual
Peter
Offline xxup  
#19 Posted : 26 June 2021 12:12:39(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Okay.. I have the sounds and motor working correctly, but I am still struggling with the red swiss light. I have confirmed that there is a red led and it seems to be powered or grounded through a blue wire. However, I can't determine the correct auxiliary and I am unable to link it properly using a CS3.

Some images...

The CS3 hardware information

UserPostedImage

This is the blue wire on the decoder base - it seems to connect to pin 20 on the 21 pin socket.

UserPostedImage

This is the two blue wires on the middle board. Left lower wire comes from the above-mentioned board, while the right-hand one goes to the LED lights.

UserPostedImage

This is an image of the LED board - rear one.. The blue wire is connected to a pin above the gray one (i.e. they are separate pins)

UserPostedImage

This is the CS3 screen for the current settings for F0. These lights work correctly.. Three whites in the front and one white light at the rear right side.

UserPostedImage

This setting is from the default project download from Marklin for F1 (Swiss Lights). I don't think that there is an AUX 3, but I tried AUX 1-6 in that position with no change..

UserPostedImage

I know that something is not set correctly, but I can't figure it out.. I wish that I had access to a 39563 with a working original decoder so I could see how it is set up in the CS3..

Any thoughts?
Adrian
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Offline dickinsonj  
#20 Posted : 27 June 2021 01:31:36(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,460
Location: United States
I don't have an answer for you Adrian, but that is the most clearly stated question that I have ever seen on a forum.

Nice. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline bph  
#21 Posted : 27 June 2021 13:31:53(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 402
Hi
recommend that you check the blue wire connection with a multi meter, check what pin it's actually connected to on the mtc interface. that way you should be able to identify the correct aux out. (it's not aux 4 or higher).

if it's aux 3, you have to check if the aux 3 original was a logic signal, and is amplified somewhere. e.g. if aux 3 need to be configured as a logic level output. I don’t have the locomotive, so unfortunately, I cannot be of more help.

You might find some more info here: (But please note that there might be some errors, so you have to check the information.)
https://moba-hgh.de/modellbahn/digital/decoder/fuer-lokomotiven/maerklin/mfx/sonderbauweisen/2307-39563-ce-6-8-güterzug-lokomotive-der-sbb#funktionsbelegung-2
http://www.web-hgh.de/index_jsm_moba.htm?http://www.web-hgh.de/p01_45217_t.htm
http://www.web-hgh.de/images/slw/606218_LWP_kroko/606218%20LWP-SP%203956x.jpg
Offline xxup  
#22 Posted : 27 June 2021 14:00:45(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Thanks for that additional information. I traced the Aux3 pin and it seems to go nowhere and the first link suggests that the Swiss lighting should be Aux1 anyway. I need to play around with the Aux 1 settings.

When I tracked the blue wire, the only pin that gave a result was pin 20 (GND).

The risk is that the board is blown in someway and will never switch to the red LED.. So I need to really look longer at this special board to understand how it actually works to see if I can test it in some way.

It's a journey.. RollEyes
Adrian
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Offline bph  
#23 Posted : 27 June 2021 15:12:31(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for that additional information. I traced the Aux3 pin and it seems to go nowhere and the first link suggests that the Swiss lighting should be Aux1 anyway. I need to play around with the Aux 1 settings.

When I tracked the blue wire, the only pin that gave a result was pin 20 (GND).

The risk is that the board is blown in someway and will never switch to the red LED.. So I need to really look longer at this special board to understand how it actually works to see if I can test it in some way.

It's a journey.. RollEyes


yes, it’s a journey RollEyes , I'm currently struggling on a journey, with another project with undocumented functions in the MSD3 decoder.

whats a strange is this picture from 39562 on the moba-hgh.de site
39562
it seems like the blue wire in your locomotive is brown and yellow in this picture, that indicates Aux 3. But then the decoder board might be different.
Offline Bryan  
#24 Posted : 28 June 2021 00:30:18(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Adrian

Just one question about using the mSD/3 in the softsine 39563. I thought that you need a driver board for the SDS motor. These are available from Switzerland and there are 3 types for the 3 different sine motors. From what I can workout, you seem to have got around the driver board problem, or are you using the existing decoder. Best of luck with this and tell us how it all progresses. All very complicated, however fascinating at the same time.

David
Offline xxup  
#25 Posted : 28 June 2021 00:55:50(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
David,

I am using the original base board, which I assume has the driver for the SDS. The ribbon cable from the motor plugs into the board. If I used the whole, mSD/3 kit that includes a replacement base board, then I would need to have the special driver board. The motor and sound are not a problem to set up, but the ^*&%^&*% Swiss light is a pain. I WILL solve the problem and post the solution on here so some other poor soul does not have to go through this pain again..

Cheers
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#26 Posted : 28 June 2021 01:01:43(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
it seems like the blue wire in your locomotive is brown and yellow in this picture, that indicates Aux 3. But then the decoder board might be different.


I noticed that too, but AUX 3 on the pin-out is the second pin down from the top on the left hand set of pins.. As you can see, like the base board on my loco, it does not seem to have a connection. The next two pins down AUX 2 and AUX 1 do have tracks coming from the pins. The boards look the same to me..
Adrian
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Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 28 June 2021 10:56:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,293
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bryan Go to Quoted Post
I thought that you need a driver board for the SDS motor.
All SDS locos come with that board. All C Sine locos with mfx already have that board.

Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I noticed that too, but AUX 3 on the pin-out is the second pin down from the top on the left hand set of pins.
Some locos require AUX4 to be always on and to be logic level. Some do not need that logic level at all. Maybe some C Sine locos need AUX3 to be always on.
Would be good to have a 39563 with the original decoder to read out the settings.
Older decoders have AUX3/4 always as logic level outputs, but IIRC with MSD/3 this is not the default.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline xxup  
#28 Posted : 10 July 2021 09:32:07(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Finally, I managed to crack the problem.

The key was the "Logic AUX3" setting in the Misc section of the Configuration tab of the decoder edit page on the CS3.

UserPostedImage

By default it was set off. When we first played with this setting the red light would come on and not go off if you pressed F2. I am not 100% sure what we changed, but after we set this setting, we deleted all the other changes (as shown in the images below) and added them in later. I suspect that there is a minor bug in the decoder editing part of the CS3. These are the other settings, which follow the recommendations provided by Costas and Jean in earlier posts. Looking at the original decoder was not useful as the "Logic AUX3" setting was concealed, because it was a factory decoder. Marklin needs to be less precious about its intellectual property and provide better information to help customers using their marklin-branded decoders.

The other settings shown for consolidation reasons are:

F0 settings

UserPostedImage

In the Always setting we added "Auxiliary 2"

UserPostedImage

Click on Auxiliary 2 to see the default settings - shown in case the default changes in the future.

UserPostedImage

Finally we set F2 to use Auxiliary 3 - using the same default settings that were used for Auxiliary 2

UserPostedImage

I hope that this helps someone else avoid the pain we went though converting this loco.

It runs beautifully and looks great.
Adrian
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