Dear All

I am currently trying to upgrade a Marklin 39563 crocodile to a 60977 mSD/3 decoder. These locos have a C-Sinus motor, however it is the later version with the small vertical C-Sinus motor. Also the original decoder is the later 21 pin type.
The 60977 instructions denote the following:

CV52 must be ‘1’ for C-Sinus type motors.
CV56 must be ‘0’ for control influence.
CV51 is either 24 or 0
AUX3 is set to ‘S’ status
AUX4 is set to ‘F’ running

When using the both the dPT software or the CS 2 (60214) I have set the following correctly, both have latest software.
CV52 must be ‘1’ for C-Sinus type motors.
CV56 must be ‘0’ for control influence.

However the remaining 3 parameters, I cannot locate to set correctly in either of the progamming tools. These are
CV51 is either 24 or 0
AUX3 is set to ‘S’ status
AUX4 is set to ‘F’ running

Can anybody tell me how to set these three CV's, which key stokes or menues in either the Programming tool or the CS2.Also is the CS3+ better for such jobs.
The Marklin instructions are very cryptic with all their digital software and need help.
The only decoder functionality is the front and rear lights work when setting the direction.
Has anyone successfully used an mSD/3 decoder successfully on a 21 pin loco with SDS.

Thanking for any assistance.

Best regards
David

Edited by moderator 10 July 2021 11:21:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Dear Costas

I have read your posting. Within it, it states also that AUX 4 must be on logical level and always on. The problem is I cannot find where the 'AUX4' is displayed in the mDecoderTool3 screen displays. Would it be under the Functions menu somewhere.

Thanks for your help.
David

Dear Costas

I will try that, and thank you.

Best regards
David
Bowral NSW

Dear David

I am happy that I helped you

For the sound: Remove the old sound module and connect the speakers directly to the decoder (The speakers must be 4-8Ω)

Τhe problem with the lights is that the Swiss lights system is used. They need special mapping and I think that in this loco is a special board for the light mapping

Any way some photos of the inside of the loco and of the PCB will help a lot to see what exactly happen.

The 3956x locos use a special PCB the 606218 or 606228 for the lihgts

Regards

Costas

Thank you Costas and Tom.
I have attached a photo of the crocodile chassis displaying the wiring and decoder mounting board.
From the original mounting board, 3 wires are taken to the sound board. These are orange, white and black.
From the sound board two white wires go two the speakers.
Which of the three input wires should be used to connect to the speaker.

Also a great idea about mapping the AUX1 etc from the original board. The idea could be used for matching other functionality in future projects as well.

Best regards to both of you
David

Just to clarify: the 39563 had a single sound function, generated by a separate sound board, not a sound decoder.
The board is driven by a pulse from a regular Aux output of the (non-sound) decoder (which, at that time, likely was Esu LP3-based).
So the 3 wires to the sound board are +, -, and Aux; and NOT speaker leads.
Now that you have a sound decoder, get rid of the sound board and remove the 3 leads from the decoder board, they are useless.
Your new speaker should be connected to the dedicated speaker output of your new sound decoder, not to an Aux output.
Those pads should be indicated in your mSD/3 manual; they should be present on the original decoder board, even when no sound decoder was installed.

Also, don't use the old speaker, as it is likely 100Ω (or in this case, a 2x50Ω double speaker).
AFAIK, at those times, M* sound decoders were Loksound3 based (100Ω), and this separate sound board probably as well.
You may want to check the printing on the speaker. Newer sound decoders require 4-8Ω speakers, as provided with the mSD/3.

The Swiss light configuration, including the 1 white / 1 red tail light switching, is provided by the separate 606218 circuit board. This should remain wired to the original decoder board (and the leds) as it was.
As Costas mentioned, the Aux mapping of the original decoder should be copied, as this is required to drive the 606218 board for the specific light configurations.

I am working on one of these at the moment, but things are not going too well.

I managed to get the sound working by soldering the speaker that is supplied with the mSD3/3 kit directly on to the tabs next to the male decoder connector on the original board.. A big tick here.

I also managed to get the motor working with the AUX4 trick mentioned in a post above this one. The loco runs really smoothly, but it has a very low top speed. So, I need help fixing this problem.

I tried to follow the instructions to set CV7 to 77 (for the auto-calibration), but I can't find a way to actually add or access a CV that is not listed in the configuration part of the decoder edit section on the CS3. In fact, I can't seem to work out how to do it on the Marklin decoder programmer either. ESU make this stuff so easy for the user.

The last problem is the Swiss rear light. Part of the problem is my unfamiliarity with the CS3 (the other guy owns this). We could not read the original decoder with the Marklin programmer, but we could read it with my ECOS. The eCOS stated that it was using AUX3, so I set the new decoder to use OutPut3, using the Marklin programmer, but it seems that something else is needed to get the light working. Any ideas?

Edited by user 12 July 2021 13:44:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thanks for the info Jean.

The top speed was already set to 255 and I have checked the running gear. The loco runs faster with the original decoder.. So there must be something else. Does every new loco need to be calibrated by the CS3?

Ah so I need to link the F1 function to the F2 function for the Swiss lights to work.. Okay.. I will try this next weekend..

I only used the eCOS, because I could not get the Marklin programmer to read the original decoder.. My friend has the CS3 and the loco..

That's nuts!

I did see the -/7, but I thought it was just some weird code for the firmware version.

How on earth is anyone supposed to work that one out? Marklin make great trains, but they really need to outsource their software development to another organisation (e.g. ESU) that know what they are doing!

@bph -> Thank you for sharing the screenshot. There is no way I could have worked that one out for myself.

Okay.. I have the sounds and motor working correctly, but I am still struggling with the red swiss light. I have confirmed that there is a red led and it seems to be powered or grounded through a blue wire. However, I can't determine the correct auxiliary and I am unable to link it properly using a CS3.

Some images...

The CS3 hardware information



This is the blue wire on the decoder base - it seems to connect to pin 20 on the 21 pin socket.



This is the two blue wires on the middle board. Left lower wire comes from the above-mentioned board, while the right-hand one goes to the LED lights.



This is an image of the LED board - rear one.. The blue wire is connected to a pin above the gray one (i.e. they are separate pins)



This is the CS3 screen for the current settings for F0. These lights work correctly.. Three whites in the front and one white light at the rear right side.



This setting is from the default project download from Marklin for F1 (Swiss Lights). I don't think that there is an AUX 3, but I tried AUX 1-6 in that position with no change..



I know that something is not set correctly, but I can't figure it out.. I wish that I had access to a 39563 with a working original decoder so I could see how it is set up in the CS3..

Any thoughts?

Hi
recommend that you check the blue wire connection with a multi meter, check what pin it's actually connected to on the mtc interface. that way you should be able to identify the correct aux out. (it's not aux 4 or higher).

if it's aux 3, you have to check if the aux 3 original was a logic signal, and is amplified somewhere. e.g. if aux 3 need to be configured as a logic level output. I don’t have the locomotive, so unfortunately, I cannot be of more help.

You might find some more info here: (But please note that there might be some errors, so you have to check the information.)
https://moba-hgh.de/modellbahn/digital/decoder/fuer-lokomotiven/maerklin/mfx/sonderbauweisen/2307-39563-ce-6-8-güterzug-lokomotive-der-sbb#funktionsbelegung-2
http://www.web-hgh.de/index_jsm_moba.htm?http://www.web-hgh.de/p01_45217_t.htm
http://www.web-hgh.de/images/slw/606218_LWP_kroko/606218%20LWP-SP%203956x.jpg

yes, it’s a journey , I'm currently struggling on a journey, with another project with undocumented functions in the MSD3 decoder.

whats a strange is this picture from 39562 on the moba-hgh.de site

it seems like the blue wire in your locomotive is brown and yellow in this picture, that indicates Aux 3. But then the decoder board might be different.

David,

I am using the original base board, which I assume has the driver for the SDS. The ribbon cable from the motor plugs into the board. If I used the whole, mSD/3 kit that includes a replacement base board, then I would need to have the special driver board. The motor and sound are not a problem to set up, but the ^*&%^&*% Swiss light is a pain. I WILL solve the problem and post the solution on here so some other poor soul does not have to go through this pain again..

Cheers

All SDS locos come with that board. All C Sine locos with mfx already have that board.

Some locos require AUX4 to be always on and to be logic level. Some do not need that logic level at all. Maybe some C Sine locos need AUX3 to be always on.
Would be good to have a 39563 with the original decoder to read out the settings.
Older decoders have AUX3/4 always as logic level outputs, but IIRC with MSD/3 this is not the default.

Post initiated on 08-Aug-2022
Dear All,
I am in a similar fix, in my case the Sinus Motor bus, just snapped out of the decoder when i tried to plug the new marklin msd/3 60977 decoder to the original mother board and the motor STOPPED running.....then i had to buy a new DC brushless motor and replaced it.

For your info i soldered the Pin - No 18 and 19 To the Motor terminals and the motor is running, i kept the other wirings and the onboard circuits intact to save the Swiss Headlights, Sound & Pantograph Operation switch.



This is the video after doing the work, as it would appear, the sound features not fully functional and also the Red color break lights not visible.

Tonight i am going to trouble shoot this with CS5, to restore the sound and headlights by playing with CV values, i have given good reading of all of your post, hope it will help me to bring back the engine alive completely. i will keep you all posted with my findings. _/\_

Updated as on 11-Aug-2022

Hello everyone,
Further to update on my previous note, i couldn't succeed in retro fitting a DC - Motor to the original Marklin 39562 mother board with 60977 decoder, Apparently the sound did not come through and the motor in itself was not driving with full efficiency.

So i decided to strip all the wires to barebone and connect the 60977 mSD/3 decoder with motor, supplied speaker and the existing led lights. But here also there was challenge as the lighting had separate control circuit.



The control circuit on the left in pic was serving 3 purpose -
1.Providing Connection to Pantograph and Centre pickup shoe
2.Swiss LED Lights as was mentioned earlier in the post by bph was very useful study the functions of the LED, reposting the same link for ease of reference (Courtesy bph: https://moba-hgh.de/mode...weizer-lichtwechsel.html
3.To receive the Orange and Brown wires from Loco chassis and connect to decoder.

The only reason to keep this secondary board was for the 2nd point. (Switching yellow/red combination)

Here is the wiring connection diagram i made, so that it could of some use to people who want to retro fit Motor and Sound functions into the complex SSB 6/8 crocodile loco Marklin 39562



The only hurdle i faced was, the 2 wires from the Light Control Board (Purple and Brown with yellow strips - refer picture), There is no option to connect this wire, i really wondered where to connect it ?, if left open without any connection what would be the impact.

So i went back to the old Mother board and traced where these wires connected.





Here if you observe the purple was connected to Ground - Pin 20 of the Decoder and Brown-yellow was connected Indirectly connected to Aux 3 Port via what appeared to 3-pin MOSFET transistor, which is usually used to drive SMD LED's. Since it was connected to Aux 3 Port, it gave me relief that this was only optional and i can do away with its functionality and and decided to leave the Purple and Brown-Yellow wire open.

The Central Station, i only calibrated the CV 51 value to set it to 5 - (Soft DC motor)

Here is the videos of the loco test run. The pickup shoe and motor & gear mechanism did face of runtime challenges, but functionally its working now.


With Pantograph connected. Slow Operation Mode.



Thank you _/\_

Regards,

Senthil

Edited by user 11 August 2022 10:47:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified