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Offline Carim  
#51 Posted : 03 November 2020 15:06:03(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 452
Location: London
Take two live wires and apply them to each side of the split ring commutator (in effect bypassing the brushes), does the motor jerk? If it doesn't, your motor is dead.

Carim
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Carim
Offline Rickmann  
#52 Posted : 03 November 2020 16:10:11(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
This must have been the only thing I haven't tried.

Will do.

Thanks for the tip.
Offline Zme  
#53 Posted : 03 November 2020 16:59:47(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello, sorry to hear about this. I was sure you would have success right off. Sure a part was not missed? I always do a part check, but that is just me.

Are you saying, after switching the 5 pole and reassembling, it is not working? Or is the armature not turning with the test methods mentioned by previous comments? In other words, try it without anything attached.

I just reassembled mine, a new 3 pole and frame. I was waiting on a broken insulator. This is the one with the white staining on it, added in the brushes, and it is working fine. The white stain, aside, it seems unaffected by this. I would like one without this staining, and it may be a bit inefficient with it, but perhaps I can work on this. Yes the brushes typically have a bit of residue from manufacturer but I just spin the armature by hand on the brushes for a bit and it is enough to get it to work. That is a bit more difficult on this motor/frame setup.

If you reassembled and it won't work, it is possible the wheels and links are bound up, not in sync. What I do is place the middle gear, then hold the wheelsets (Frank does it a bit different in the video) which are attached to the linkage bars, (Verify which side is to the correct side, there is one which is long and then the other side seems to reflect two connectors. Check it. The longer one piece linkage is towards the front but it will work if it is placed in the opposite, you will just know it is wrong. Anyway, just hold up the wheelset and it will naturally take the correct orientation. Frank is showing the process in the video when he holds the wheels up in his tweezers, and just seems to quickly slap the wheels down onto the frame. Place the rear in, then the front. Check it, the linkage rods should be a bit higher on one of the sides as compared to the other side. Your last task is to place in the link gears, without disturbing your wheel orientation. Watch the video again, it shows all of my comments and may be helpful. When you get it right, the linkage arms should be loose, no pressure against them. You can just check this. If it is bound, you have to repeat the process.

You will get it, just keep at it.

Dwight
Offline Rickmann  
#54 Posted : 03 November 2020 17:23:50(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, sorry to hear about this. I was sure you would have success right off. Sure a part was not missed? I always do a part check, but that is just me.

Are you saying, after switching the 5 pole and reassembling, it is not working? Or is the armature not turning with the test methods mentioned by previous comments? In other words, try it without anything attached.

I just reassembled mine, a new 3 pole and frame. I was waiting on a broken insulator. This is the one with the white staining on it, added in the brushes, and it is working fine. The white stain, aside, it seems unaffected by this. I would like one without this staining, and it may be a bit inefficient with it, but perhaps I can work on this. Yes the brushes typically have a bit of residue from manufacturer but I just spin the armature by hand on the brushes for a bit and it is enough to get it to work. That is a bit more difficult on this motor/frame setup.

If you reassembled and it won't work, it is possible the wheels and links are bound up, not in sync. What I do is place the middle gear, then hold the wheelsets (Frank does it a bit different in the video) which are attached to the linkage bars, (Verify which side is to the correct side, there is one which is long and then the other side seems to reflect two connectors. Check it. The longer one piece linkage is towards the front but it will work if it is placed in the opposite, you will just know it is wrong. Anyway, just hold up the wheelset and it will naturally take the correct orientation. Frank is showing the process in the video when he holds the wheels up in his tweezers, and just seems to quickly slap the wheels down onto the frame. Place the rear in, then the front. Check it, the linkage rods should be a bit higher on one of the sides as compared to the other side. Your last task is to place in the link gears, without disturbing your wheel orientation. Watch the video again, it shows all of my comments and may be helpful. When you get it right, the linkage arms should be loose, no pressure against them. You can just check this. If it is bound, you have to repeat the process.

You will get it, just keep at it.

Dwight


Hello Dwight

I honestly believe that the problem is with the engine. I even tested the engine without any of the weels (or cogs) attached and it didn't worked.

If the engine were ok, it would spin inside the "Magnetic Cage" (I don't know the correct name for it in English).

Tonight I'm going to do connect two live wires to the engine, instead of the brushes. That will reveal the truth about the engine.

I honestly believe that I struck bad luck with the spare.


Offline Rickmann  
#55 Posted : 03 November 2020 21:52:04(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Take two live wires and apply them to each side of the split ring commutator (in effect bypassing the brushes), does the motor jerk? If it doesn't, your motor is dead.

Carim


Hello again

I followed your sugestion but nothing happened.

I noticed that despite the engine being a 5 pole, only 4 windings (i don’t know if this is the correct word) were present. Photos below. Is this normal?FA3195B6-3CF7-4679-A154-C40542515C88.jpegF0A87623-067F-40FE-AE22-08DA568BF79D.jpegCE408C24-A019-4035-AA63-5A2B10E1976D.jpeg

Sorry all, i am writing this from my iPhone, so i think the uploading of the photos didn’t sent well.

I’m on shift tonight, so maybe only tomorow i’ll be able to upload them again.
Offline Zme  
#56 Posted : 04 November 2020 00:55:55(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello. I wish I could tell you about my experiences with this process, but I have not tried it.

I Did find this discussion from a while back concerning this task. There seems to be a point about how the worm gear is installed which may be relevant.

https://www.trainboard.c...0-to-5-pole-motor.51786/

Let us know what happens next.

Dwight
Offline Carim  
#57 Posted : 04 November 2020 09:23:06(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 452
Location: London
Originally Posted by: Rickmann Go to Quoted Post


I noticed that despite the engine being a 5 pole, only 4 windings (i don’t know if this is the correct word) were present. Photos below. Is this normal?


No, that motor does not look right to me.

I would expect it to look more like this:

BR 260 windings.jpg

Motor windings.jpg

Carim

p.s. Have you seen this site? http://www.zscale.org/
Offline Zme  
#58 Posted : 08 November 2020 04:52:52(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello

Thought I might have a lead on a part

If you are still interested:

I noticed the fine print, I was going to suggest a part which does not work. Sorry

Best wishes

Dwight
Offline Rickmann  
#59 Posted : 12 November 2020 13:10:36(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Hello Everyone

Have you ever had bad experiences with Lokmuseum??

I ordered them the spare engine for my 260, it arrived in a very short time, but the engine didn't worked.

Since then, I emailed Lokmuseum with pictures of the engine they sent me, with a very strange wiring overlapping 2 of the 5 poles.

IMG_0647.jpgIMG_0645.jpg

I believe that this is the cause for my first failure.

I wrote them twice but no answer as been provided.

It's a shame, since they have lots of interesting spares, but I am loosing my confidence in them.

Can anyone give me their opinion about the engine? Is it possible to remove the electrical wire overlapping the 2 poles and redo the wiring in each of the poles?

What can I do??

Best regards
Ricardo
Offline Zme  
#60 Posted : 12 November 2020 15:50:14(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello

I have not used Lok-Museum, but I have only heard good things about them. It is likely this COVID-19 stuff that is causing their delay in contacting you. Just wait a while longer you will hear from them.

I have been looking for a photo of that armature. I seem to recall seeing one view from the top, so it can be compared. I have not seen nor had an 8864 type locomotive with the five pole so I am not sure it is defective. I will keeping looking for that photo, perhaps I can find it.

I cannot say how successful you would be in attempting a rewind.

I am sorry to say that I have not been much help. I did find used parts with the frame and armature together. Let me know, they were not functional and would need to be rewound. Unfortunately they were 3 poles. This might give you some experience with this process. They only cost about 5 Euros.

Don’t recall if you had it together completely but, when looking at the armature in the magnetic case, is it free spinning or do you think this defective winding is contacting the case and preventing movement? Take a toothpick and carefully try to give it a spin. It should move freely, but may offer slight resistance as it move thru the magnetic fields. No movement would strongly signal a defective piece and strengthen your case with Lok-Museum.

I sure like that little locomotive, and can understand your dedication to it.

Take good care

Dwight
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Zme
Offline Rickmann  
#61 Posted : 12 November 2020 16:56:10(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello

I have not used Lok-Museum, but I have only heard good things about them. It is likely this COVID-19 stuff that is causing their delay in contacting you. Just wait a while longer you will hear from them.

I have been looking for a photo of that armature. I seem to recall seeing one view from the top, so it can be compared. I have not seen nor had an 8864 type locomotive with the five pole so I am not sure it is defective. I will keeping looking for that photo, perhaps I can find it.

I cannot say how successful you would be in attempting a rewind.

I am sorry to say that I have not been much help. I did find used parts with the frame and armature together. Let me know, they were not functional and would need to be rewound. Unfortunately they were 3 poles. This might give you some experience with this process. They only cost about 5 Euros.

Don’t recall if you had it together completely but, when looking at the armature in the magnetic case, is it free spinning or do you think this defective winding is contacting the case and preventing movement? Take a toothpick and carefully try to give it a spin. It should move freely, but may offer slight resistance as it move thru the magnetic fields. No movement would strongly signal a defective piece and strengthen your case with Lok-Museum.

I sure like that little locomotive, and can understand your dedication to it.

Take good care

Dwight


Dear Dwight (Guardian Angel BigGrin )

I already spinned the armature with no resistance whatsoever. I just don't understand why this engine has 5 poles, with 3 having individual wiring and 2 with the same wiring!!!! In what concerns creating a magnetic field that would cause the armature to spin, it would be reasonable to assume that 5 poles would have individual wirings. Or am I seeing this wrongly?

By the way, I received a new 5 pole motor (I will stop for nothing) that spins perfectly (yessssss).

However, the motor has a thick transparent gum on it, and it makes lots of smoke, and gets very hot, very quickly. Is it normal? Can it be cleaned?

Do you think that a Contact Cleaner Spray would be useful?

By the way I already bought several busted locomotives on Ebay and with a little work got them all working (You can call me MacGyver!!!!!!)

I am special proud of a BR050 that the previous owner disassembled and couldn't reassemble (one cog came on a little plastic bag). Only payed 80 USD for her, and she is a beauty.

I am equally proud of a BR74701 that arrived all dismantled in a plastic bag (34€). Now is running like a Swiss clock.

My son want's me to open a repair service for small trains, he suggested me to buy defective trains, repair them and sell them after. But I want them all!!!!!!

Best Regards
Offline Zme  
#62 Posted : 12 November 2020 18:01:32(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello MacGyver

Here is a YouTube concerning someone who rewound an armature, but it is a three pole. Principle should be the same:

sorry for the music on this one. Note the parts cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner. Please also read the comments and replies to this one.

It seems each pole is individually wrapped and the direction of the wrap is important.

I usually use a ultrasonic cleaning most parts but never dunk the electric motor. I believe this would not damage it, but the important thing to do is completely dry the electrical parts. Use compressed air to blow out the motor. A problem is if the liquid is left on the motor, could cause corrosion or contamination if not cleaned out. Electric parts Isopropyl cleaner may be a good follow up as it will act on the water part of your cleaning solution. I have a 98% pure kind, I use, you probably can locate the same. Contact cleaner is possibly a bit to strong. Can't say.

I cannot say if it would work to remove the film you mention. I usually use, distilled water and some kind of liquid cleaner like, Green Cleaner, or something similar which you have available. (Maybe you could search on this forum and find what other European users have had success with). I have noticed the sonic cleaner will remove the tarnished look on a copper contact, if left in the cleaner long enough. I once left a spur gear in the cleaner a bit to long and ruined it. It was badly discolored and not polished after this. I had to replace it. So be careful and any parts should be cleaned and dried immediately after cleaning. Spur gears I blow off with air, then dip in the Isopropyl and dry again. I try to replace oil right away.

I would say, smoke and heat are not a good sign on these little jewels. I have not seen smoke, but have some which are quick to heat up. I think it is possible, brush pressure is to high and this is one factor.

You must have purchased those spare parts you mentioned because I don't seem them available now. I tend to be overly careful with parts I have because I don't have a local vendor, and it is expensive for me to make purchases from Europe. Shipping is so high!

I like those BR 74's too. I upgraded several to 5 poles and with the spare parts, recreated the original 3 pole, but I likely could have purchased a new one for less.

If you have had so much success, I agree with your son, you should start working on Z locomotives, it may fill a need in your location. It is fun and a challenge, but isn't everything.

Best wishes

Dwight
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Zme
Offline Rickmann  
#63 Posted : 12 November 2020 18:57:32(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello MacGyver

Here is a YouTube concerning someone who rewound an armature, but it is a three pole. Principle should be the same:

sorry for the music on this one. Note the parts cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner. Please also read the comments and replies to this one.

It seems each pole is individually wrapped and the direction of the wrap is important.

I usually use a ultrasonic cleaning most parts but never dunk the electric motor. I believe this would not damage it, but the important thing to do is completely dry the electrical parts. Use compressed air to blow out the motor. A problem is if the liquid is left on the motor, could cause corrosion or contamination if not cleaned out. Electric parts Isopropyl cleaner may be a good follow up as it will act on the water part of your cleaning solution. I have a 98% pure kind, I use, you probably can locate the same. Contact cleaner is possibly a bit to strong. Can't say.

I cannot say if it would work to remove the film you mention. I usually use, distilled water and some kind of liquid cleaner like, Green Cleaner, or something similar which you have available. (Maybe you could search on this forum and find what other European users have had success with). I have noticed the sonic cleaner will remove the tarnished look on a copper contact, if left in the cleaner long enough. I once left a spur gear in the cleaner a bit to long and ruined it. It was badly discolored and not polished after this. I had to replace it. So be careful and any parts should be cleaned and dried immediately after cleaning. Spur gears I blow off with air, then dip in the Isopropyl and dry again. I try to replace oil right away.

I would say, smoke and heat are not a good sign on these little jewels. I have not seen smoke, but have some which are quick to heat up. I think it is possible, brush pressure is to high and this is one factor.

You must have purchased those spare parts you mentioned because I don't seem them available now. I tend to be overly careful with parts I have because I don't have a local vendor, and it is expensive for me to make purchases from Europe. Shipping is so high!

I like those BR 74's too. I upgraded several to 5 poles and with the spare parts, recreated the original 3 pole, but I likely could have purchased a new one for less.

If you have had so much success, I agree with your son, you should start working on Z locomotives, it may fill a need in your location. It is fun and a challenge, but isn't everything.

Best wishes

Dwight


Dwight

If there's something that you really need in Europe, you can send it to my address and I'll mail it to you after.

My only concern is the restrictions due to the COVID pandemic. I have an order of Star Wars ships (it's an other story BigGrin) stuck in the Customs of Palo Alto, CA since June!!!!

Let me know if I can be of assistance.

Best Regards
Offline Zme  
#64 Posted : 12 November 2020 19:20:07(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Thank you Ricardo, I will keep you in mind.

I know what you mean about slow mail service. I was told, mail sent from Germany goes by boat and takes two months. I have an item stuck too, don’t know when it will get better.

When I mentioned that BR 74, I managed to get ahold of frames with the 5 pole motor installed. I had to get the darkened wheels, linkages etc. Put everything together and it worked fine. Ah, those were the good old days. If I had only known, I would have appreciated it more.

Keep us posted.

Dwight.
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#65 Posted : 12 November 2020 21:19:14(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Rickmann Go to Quoted Post

Hello again


I noticed that despite the engine being a 5 pole, only 4 windings (i don’t know if this is the correct word) were present. Photos below. Is this normal?FA3195B6-3CF7-4679-A154-C40542515C88.jpeg

Sorry all, i am writing this from my iPhone, so i think the uploading of the photos didn’t sent well.

I’m on shift tonight, so maybe only tomorow i’ll be able to upload them again.


I just took a look at a motor I remembered I have and it is just the same. It was working until I tried to improve it so this must be normal.

I don't know if you can make it out from this photo. If not, you'll just have to take my word for it!

IMG_3144.JPG

All the best


Chris
Offline Zme  
#66 Posted : 12 November 2020 22:55:18(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Hello, just another consideration. Did Lok-Museum mention that the magnetic cage should be ungraded to the new version matching the 5 pole motor?

Did you check, and make sure the armature turns after the magnetic cage is attached. It is not easy, just pinch the worm gear at the bottom and give it a twist. It should move and not be bound up.

Just trying to figure it out.

Best wishes


Dwight
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Zme
Offline Rickmann  
#67 Posted : 14 November 2020 22:57:40(UTC)
Rickmann

Portugal   
Joined: 22/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Guarda, Guarda
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, just another consideration. Did Lok-Museum mention that the magnetic cage should be ungraded to the new version matching the 5 pole motor?

Did you check, and make sure the armature turns after the magnetic cage is attached. It is not easy, just pinch the worm gear at the bottom and give it a twist. It should move and not be bound up.

Just trying to figure it out.

Best wishes


Dwight


Sucess!!!

With a different motor, it worked like a charm!!!

Audaces Fortuna Juvat!!!
Offline Zme  
#68 Posted : 15 November 2020 01:20:08(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: West Texas
Yippee. Great news!

Now, go fix another one!


BigGrin

Best wishes.


Dwight
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