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Offline hxmiesa  
#1 Posted : 26 February 2020 12:21:07(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Hi,

I want to repaint some older Märklin locos;

For example;
1. A very old metal BR141/E41 From blue/beige to blue epoch III.
2. Plastic akku-treibwagen BR515 from blue/beige to red epoch III.

I have never done anything like this, although I am getting quite handy with the airbrush and painting in general...

Questions;
1. Can I strip the old paint with brake-fluid and a toothbrush?
2. Is it necessary to strip the paint from plastic-models? (is brake-fluid OK for plastic?)
3. Is "satinated" the right surface-finish for the job?
4. Where can I buy all the needed decals to apply after painting?

5. Would it be worth the effort (is it at all feasable???) to try to repaint a V200, with its5detailed V-shaped decorations?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline thing fish  
#2 Posted : 26 February 2020 13:26:35(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

Questions;
1. Can I strip the old paint with brake-fluid and a toothbrush?
2. Is it necessary to strip the paint from plastic-models? (is brake-fluid OK for plastic?)
3. Is "satinated" the right surface-finish for the job?
4. Where can I buy all the needed decals to apply after painting?

5. Would it be worth the effort (is it at all feasable???) to try to repaint a V200, with its5detailed V-shaped decorations?


Hi,

1) Brake fluid is NO GO! You'll ruin the plastic.
2) Better to strip ... no brake fluid, you can find paint removers that won't ruin plastic.
3) Satin finish is my favorite but up to your liking.
4) I don't know but if you're up to it you can make them yourself. Search internet; there is a product called "liquid decal film".
5) Feasible, imo worth it ... I've done the V200 twice and I'm very happy with the results.

C.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#3 Posted : 26 February 2020 13:38:44(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
1) Brake fluid is NO GO! You'll ruin the plastic.
...
5) Feasible, imo worth it ... I've done the V200 twice and I'm very happy with the results.

So the brake fluid is OK for the metal-shells?

Can I see a photo of your V200 jobs, please?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline thing fish  
#4 Posted : 27 February 2020 12:25:28(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Hi,

Yes, brake fluid is ok on metal.

I'll post photos of the one I still have, the other one painted to blue-beige livery I sold some time ago and unfortunately I don't have photos of it - maybe I have but have to search my archives.

Best,

C.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#5 Posted : 27 February 2020 12:51:21(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Thanks Thing Fish!

Guys, I still need help with what product to buy for stripping plastic shells, and some some names/adresses for getting the decals.
I know of course how to use Google, but it would be nice with some verified OKAY names and brands to start out with!

Thing fish; The V200 is especially daring to paint. I cant really imagine how to paint the V-shaped design on the epoch III version?!
I mean... I´m only interessted in a completely professional look! lol
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Carim  
#6 Posted : 27 February 2020 21:35:02(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 442
Location: London
Hi,

I used Deluxe Materials "Strip Magic" (https://deluxematerials.co.uk/) to strip the paint off Z scale carriages; it was very effective and didn't damage the plastic - but I don't know if Märklin uses different plastic in HO scale from Z scale. For decals, I used Andreas Nothaft: https://www.modellbahndecals.de/

Carim
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Offline Dave Banks  
#7 Posted : 28 February 2020 00:22:47(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,001
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
For my two cents worth this is how I do it "Downunder". I go down to my local brake / CV joint / engineering shop & they give the naked body a light sandblasting & it's all done in a minute. Then you have a perfect rough surface to spray your etching primer etc on. The rest of the story is all up to you BigGrin.

Edited by user 28 February 2020 06:29:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

D.A.Banks
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Offline PhredD  
#8 Posted : 28 February 2020 02:20:18(UTC)
PhredD

United States   
Joined: 16/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 53
Location: Burke, Virginia
For stripping paint off metal bodies my go-to is Rust-Oleum brand "Aircraft Remover" - fairly easy to find here in the US, but I have no idea on the availability elsewhere. While i haven't used it on Märklin loks, I have used it to remove paint from tin plate car bodies and roofs and die-cast cars - spray, wait 10 minutes, scrub with toothbrush, repeat.

For paint removal from plastic bodies, I use "Easy Off" oven cleaner, a spray foam product that I've found safe to use on various types of plastic. As above, the process is spray, wait 10 minutes, scrub with toothbrush (under running water is my technique), keep repeating as necessary. I've also used 90% denatured alcohol to remove paint off plastic - attached is a photo of my repainted BR212 from a starter set that I'm pretty sure I used that technique. (Paint was Testors Model master "British Crimson" over Tamiya primer, with decals from TL Modelbau.


A good primer is key for both. For metal bodies, look for an etching primer for a good use coat for the color to grab on to. For plastic bodies, whether finishing with an acrylic or enamel finish, I really like Tamiya's fine light gray primer - covers really well, dries quickly, and is thin so that it doesn't hide details.

Hope this is useful info.

Fred212 repaint.jpg
PhredD
Burke, VA USA
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Offline thing fish  
#9 Posted : 28 February 2020 12:05:31(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Thing fish; The V200 is especially daring to paint. I cant really imagine how to paint the V-shaped design on the epoch III version?!
I mean... I´m only interessted in a completely professional look! lol


Oh, easy, use Tamiya masking tape; it is a bit flexible and holds pretty good. When you finish painting the body let it dry completely and apply masking tape. Make sure it adheres propery by rubbing with your finger. Once you're satisfied cut out the tape with a hobby knife with a fresh (very sharp) tip. This operation is relatively easy since the V shape line is embossed all the way. Then hand-paint the lining. That's it! Enjoy the new looks.

C.

Offline Vincent727  
#10 Posted : 05 March 2020 20:38:38(UTC)
Vincent727

France   
Joined: 15/11/2016(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: Ile-de-France, Paris
Hi

Here are examples of redecoration of Marklin Lok's that I did ...

DSC06890.JPG

Wheels still to improve ... Black paint is not nicely done ...

DSC06920 bis.jpg

All paint is gone thanks to a bath in brake fluid for cars.

Then clean with soap

Then Primer

Then paint with Bomb ...

Best regards
Offline dominator  
#11 Posted : 05 March 2020 20:56:24(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 895
Location: Kerikeri
My 3053 started loosing its paint, so after reading on this forum, I used brake fluid to remove the rest of the paint. In this case, it did not effect the plastic body.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline thing fish  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2020 09:05:41(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
My 3053 started loosing its paint, so after reading on this forum, I used brake fluid to remove the rest of the paint. In this case, it did not effect the plastic body.
Dereck


Dereck hi,

Brake fluid makes plastic detoriate, this may not be visible if you keep the part in brake fluid for a short period of time. Try this: leave a plastic thing in brake fluid for 6 hours or so. You can see the result. Now, problem is detoriation starts rightaway but will not be visible even if it is there. Not a risk worth to take in my opinion since there are products that wouldn't harm plastic.

C.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#13 Posted : 30 June 2020 09:00:38(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Hi all,

Some time since I posted in this thread, but my project is still very much ON!

I have now researched the colours and the new numbering that I have to give the 1st loco.
An ocean-bue BR141, which I want to paint blue. Now, according to what I can find on the internet, I would "need" to give it the number E41-068, as this was one of very few that came with double headlights AND in blue colour.

So, I found a german website that offers transfers for a series of locos, -and for a modest sum also offer to change the lettering and numbering. BUT... he has no products in stock, and now it seems impossible to receive anything from Germany anyway, because of the covid interruptions. :-(((

So what other ways are there to give the loco all the right writings, texts and symbols?
Any good links? -as I havent been able to find anybody else.
(The BR141 that I want to paint has all the original lettering printed. Nothing embossed on the shell!)

Also, about painting; Should I use a primer, once the old Märklin paint has been removed? -I dont quite get it with the "priming"; why not just give it an additional hand of the same paint that I am going to use anyway??? (I will be painting with an airbush and Humbrol enamel colours)

---

On another note, ThingFish says that the V-shape is embossed on the V200 body. Not so. Mine is a terrible ocean-blue version w.o. any embossment, nor "DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN" lettering on the side. Making a curved V-shape with masking tape seems like a daring task... lol
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 01 July 2020 07:30:12(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
This is the site that I mentioned in my previous mail;
https://www.modellbahndecals.de/Decals-Loks/
Anybody has experience with this vendor?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Carim  
#15 Posted : 01 July 2020 13:07:30(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 442
Location: London
Yes, I used Andreas a few times for Z-scale decals and I have been very happy with the product and the service.

Carim
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Offline Carim  
#16 Posted : 01 July 2020 13:18:11(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 442
Location: London
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
......the V-shape is embossed on the V200 body. Not so. Mine is a terrible ocean-blue version w.o. any embossment, nor "DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN" lettering on the side. Making a curved V-shape with masking tape seems like a daring task... lol


Have you considered getting a single colour decal sheet, cutting out a thin line and then curving that to get your V-shape?

Carim
Offline marklin81  
#17 Posted : 09 July 2020 01:21:37(UTC)
marklin81

United States   
Joined: 19/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: Virginia
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
This is the site that I mentioned in my previous mail;
https://www.modellbahndecals.de/Decals-Loks/
Anybody has experience with this vendor?


I've also used Modellbahndecals.de. Very happy with results.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#18 Posted : 08 August 2020 20:32:43(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
I´ve started with an epoch IV BR140.
It should end up being an epoch III E40.

Some DOT-4 brake fluid;
IMG_20200808_144226[1].jpg
This is after just a few minutes in the bath. It´s extremely effective!

After a couple of hours, and a light scrubbing with a toothbrush.
IMG_20200808_194724.jpg

After a couple of more hours and scrubbing.
After that, a rinse in water, and then to dry;
IMG_20200808_201739.jpg

Question; What should I paint first;The black bottom+silver roof or the green body?
I mean; If I paint it green first, I would have to use masking tape on the finished sides. Wouldnt that put the green in danger? -Any masking damage would probably be easier to fix on the bottom and roof??
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 09 August 2020 00:57:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,365
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
I would paint it with a primer first, then decide what colour to do BigGrin

I guess it comes down to which way you feel it would be easiest to mask it. Generally it is easier to mask a flat surface, so I would do whatever you want the main body colour first without worrying about masking. Then mask around the top of the body to paint the roof color. Then if you are doing the bottom of the body in a different colour to the main colour mask that and then paint.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#20 Posted : 13 August 2020 22:22:04(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
So far I have painted 4 times.
I primed with a little thinner green, and then just masked and painted the green, black and silver/alu en that order.

IMG_20200813_221408[1].jpg
IMG_20200813_221250[1].jpg

Lots of touching up to do, as the masking didnt hold against the silver.Crying
First I will spray the ventilation grills though...

Actually I´ve also painted some red; Roof; Pantos and other electrical details details. -and wheels. (no photo)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 14 August 2020 19:34:33(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
The side-vents was painted.
I think this deserves it´s own photo, as only NOW can you see some of the real E40´s character;

IMG_20200814_192526[1].jpg

This time the masking withstood the silver paint. I only wish that I had known how-to before painting the roof...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline hxmiesa  
#22 Posted : 16 August 2020 17:37:51(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Repainting is finished.
I tried to touch-up a couple of areas, but it sometimes makes things worse, necessitating yet another touch-up to fix the touch-up Bored

Anyway, I have been able to paint a few more details, than is normally painted on the original model. (Of course we are talking about an older model here, 80´es like)

Here are some photos of the ready loco, but BEFORE decals and a final clear coat of satin-varnish.

IMG_20200816_172617.jpg

IMG_20200816_172524.jpg

IMG_20200816_172655.jpg

I´m pretty happy with the result, although it is not as professional-looking as I had hoped for.
All in all the process went very well, only the silver/alu paint has caused practically all the problems visible in the photos.
Both black and green are easy to control with the masking and the airbrush pistol.

I might try to do the silver colour first, on the next model. (An even older Märklin E41)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline hxmiesa  
#23 Posted : 31 August 2020 23:19:13(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
So... The next (E41) is already well underway!

Same procedure; A day (or two) in DOT-4 brake-fluid.
Then priming with a thin "cobalt blue".
Then doing the silver/alu colour first, as I had some problems with bleeding under the masking tape with the E40.
IMG_20200827_135529[1].jpg

The old Märklin mold of the E41 has most electrical details on the roof MOLDED in metal, with very reduced detailing. This was ground away with the Dremel;
IMG_20200827_135542[1].jpg
I will rebuild these details with accessories from the Hobbex catenary system, some 0,2mm wire, paint and superglue.
Holes for the electrical isolators has been bored out.

IMG_20200829_131034[1].jpg

The rest of the loko gets the same treatment as the E40; Wheels and pantos painted red.

To be continued...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline hxmiesa  
#24 Posted : 01 September 2020 21:38:41(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Hey,

Yesterday's update wasnt really with the correct photos, so here's a quick re-update with a little more interesting photos;

Colour seems to be off Confused
IMG_20200901_211701[1].jpg
The finish of the colour is matte. I tried to counter that with a coat of clear gloss varnish, but it doesn't help. It even seems to throw the tone of the colour a little off...
What to do?

Partly assembled;
IMG_20200901_212121[1].jpg

Still to do;
Minor colour touch-ups.
Roof details to be scratch-built.
Windows, railings, etc. to be reapplied.
(Decals/lettering and clear varnish much further into the future...)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Michael4  
#25 Posted : 02 September 2020 16:58:59(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 435
Location: England, South Coast
I got as far as this with a repaint and then, losing enthusiasm, I put it back together still in primer.

UserPostedImageIMG_3946 by dralowid, on Flickr

When restoring things I find it all goes well until the last coat!
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Offline hxmiesa  
#26 Posted : 02 September 2020 17:43:50(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
I got as far as this with a repaint and then, losing enthusiasm, I put it back together still in primer.
When restoring things I find it all goes well until the last coat!

I´m sorry that you lost faith in it. The primer coat looks really smooth.

I am definitely NOT losing faith or interest. Especially after doing the E40, which I am very happy with.
I just don't know what to do to save the texture (matte) or the E41, as I need it to be satin or slightly gloss. I mean; I have both varnishes from Humbrol, but even a generous coat of gloss on the E41, didn't really help out.

Yesterday I ordered the decals that I need for both lokos, and so far I am very happy with Andreas Nothaft from www.modellbahndecals.de! ThumpUp

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Br502362  
#27 Posted : 03 September 2020 08:07:56(UTC)
Br502362


Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 618
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
I got as far as this with a repaint and then, losing enthusiasm, I put it back together still in primer.
When restoring things I find it all goes well until the last coat!

I´m sorry that you lost faith in it. The primer coat looks really smooth.

I am definitely NOT losing faith or interest. Especially after doing the E40, which I am very happy with.
I just don't know what to do to save the texture (matte) or the E41, as I need it to be satin or slightly gloss. I mean; I have both varnishes from Humbrol, but even a generous coat of gloss on the E41, didn't really help out.

Yesterday I ordered the decals that I need for both lokos, and so far I am very happy with Andreas Nothaft from www.modellbahndecals.de! ThumpUp



Humbrol varnishes today are just s**t! Old Humbrols were good.

Try AK Interactive satin varnish AK11238


Cheers

Åke
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Offline dominator  
#28 Posted : 03 September 2020 11:58:40(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 895
Location: Kerikeri
What gives with the mat finishes mentioned here???Confused The originals were finished in gloss!!!!!Huh
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline hxmiesa  
#29 Posted : 03 September 2020 13:07:06(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
What gives with the mat finishes mentioned here???Confused The originals were finished in gloss!!!!!Huh


First off; "Gloss" isn't really the ideal finish to go for with the models. No MR manufacturer does this, afaik. "Satin" works better, which is what my Märklin, Roco, Piko lokos seems to use. (I would even call my Piko E41 more matte than satin...)
Second is, that the color that I need was only available in "matte" finish from Humbrol. So, searching through internet, it seemed to me that people corrected the finish by applying layers of clear varnish. My question is why this didn't seem to work for me with the Humbrol gloss varnish, and what I could do the fix that. (As it seems fixable).
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#30 Posted : 04 September 2020 16:16:42(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,987
Location: NY, NY
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
I got as far as this with a repaint and then, losing enthusiasm, I put it back together still in primer.

UserPostedImageIMG_3946 by dralowid, on Flickr

When restoring things I find it all goes well until the last coat!


I quite like it in grey!
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline hxmiesa  
#31 Posted : 06 September 2020 19:01:28(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Reconstruction of the electrical roof-details; (Before painting);

IMG_20200906_120624[1].jpg
The isolators from the Hobbex series of catenary (and their 0,8mm copper wire)

IMG_20200906_185420[1].jpg
Most wires are from Faller Car System (guide-wire)

IMG_20200906_185448[1].jpg
Everything super-glued together (Tried to solder it, but that was a failure)

Ciao
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Johnvr  
#32 Posted : 07 September 2020 08:00:26(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,201
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hello

If I can make a suggestion, would you paint the springs for the pantographs in black to stand out from the red ?

RegardsBigGrin
John
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Offline Michael4  
#33 Posted : 07 September 2020 11:04:28(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 435
Location: England, South Coast
My problem with repainting things is that my last and final coat of paint is never as good as the one before!

The OP's work is great but I agree with John regarding the springs though don't know what they would have been on the original..
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Offline hxmiesa  
#34 Posted : 07 September 2020 23:21:12(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
I made the springs of the pantos red, because Märklin and Piko does them in red too. I haven't even studied photos of the real thing...
It makes these home-painted loks look more like the rest of my loks.

Here it is again, with electrical details painted; red color for lights and brass for whistle;
IMG_20200907_225312[1].jpg


Ciao...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline river6109  
#35 Posted : 25 October 2020 03:26:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,219
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Are your locos analog or digital driven ? have you thought of drilling out the marker lights ?
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline hxmiesa  
#36 Posted : 25 October 2020 09:55:41(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Are your locos analog or digital driven ? have you thought of drilling out the marker lights ?

Analog driven.
On the E41 I have drilled out the red lights in one end only.
I did that more than 30 years ago, but did a terrible job at it, so it is not perfect. I installed a couple of red leds, and use it for push-pull operation with Silberlingen. The light changes direction with a friction-contact using the same method as the drivers cab of the Silberlinge.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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