I have looked at the motor shield for some years how, a matter of fact since the 5 pole high efficiency motor came out because with this motor there is little allowance for any movements and any abnormalities within the motor shield or the motor block as a whole could result in the motor either not running at all or it runs with excessive noise.
another observation I've made, the motor block in its early stages including all the analog motors and locos weren't always precise and more care would have taken place when the 5 pole motor was introduced and who knows they may have re machined them.

Anyhow the motor block was never a number 1 problem it happened occasionally or one could say on rare occasions.
When we talk about the motor shield there has been one change from the previous, it is much thinner because of the wider perm. magnet.

the brush shaft assembly with its tension spring is pressed by machine onto the brush plate and if it is pressed to hard the hole assembly no longer lays flat but it has lifted itself at the end of the brush plate by doing this it is no longer at a 90° angle in relation to the armature and therefore prevents it from running at its top speed and also created extra noise.

the armature shaft over time either by usage or being idle for too long can also create more noise. oiling of course is the obvious answer but it doesn't resolve the noise level completely by adding 2 4mm x 2mm x 1.5mm ball bearings on each side eliminates 2 problems a.) oiling and b.) noise level.

the ball bearing on the motor block can be replace directly by removing the plastic insert whereas the motor shield a 4mm hole has to be drilled precisely,

my sketches and illustration below shows you the state of the motor shield it could be in and the state or position it should be in.

my solution to the problem is to lift the brush shaft slightly higher, get a toothpick and put a fine drop of superglue on it and than place the toothpick between the brush shaft and the motor shield and press it down with a pair of pointed pliers, there has to be enough superglue to bind the 2 parts together. do not try to do this while the brushes are still inserted nor do it while the motor shield is still attached or screwed to the motor block with its armature sitting inside.

the middle section is a front view and the right hand side a side view and the top sketch shows you the gap between the shaft and the motor shield itself.


regards.,

John

Edited by moderator 12 August 2017 12:25:22(UTC)  | Reason: Made topic 'Sticky'

Thank for sharing this John.
You are addressing an issue I have in few of my 5 pole DCM locos. Usually I buy other brush plate (and sometimes other rotor too), but doing it as you say, is better and a durable solution. The only drawback I feel is that it is not very easy to do (for me).

It was great if during one of your "glueings" you take some photos so we can see how it is.

I don't understand well what are the middle column drawings.

my post was directed at members who are interested in this type of improvement and may have recognized the advantages they may can achieve, its not for the lighthearted and not for people who put a drop of oil occasionally, so please refrain from posting your own personal references when it is clear you are not interested in this topic as a whole, just butt out and start your own topic in future

As I was saying going back to the heart of the topic:

Miguel: the next pictures will show you the front view from the prototype motor shield and I hope it will give you an indication what I mean and if still in doubt just ask me and I may can clarify your query.
the toothpick shows how to apply the glue and the paperclip for instance can be used giving you a permanent hold while the glue is setting.

and you can also see the hole I've already drilled.

drilling the hole by hand will take about 5 minutes and with this time frame you can be assured your on the right track. lifting up the brush shaft and gluing it will take no longer than 5 minutes as well.
when you take an existing brush plate off a 5 pole motor you don't have to make sure it fits properly but when replacing a 3 pole brush plate with a 5 pole brush plate (thinner) assemble the whole 5 pole motor first and see if it runs smoothly when you turn the wheels with cogs.

the last pictures show the plastic insert, the ball bearing fitted and a motor block originally from a hobby ICE train with no cogwheels/ rubber tyres or driving wheels and the motor block without the plastic insert or the ball bearing.

My idea of securing the brush shaft is by adding a flap at the end of the brush shaft and this is curled back into the brush plate it self, sketch on the bottom right hand side

John, this is really scary... How did you know about my plans for the next weekend???

Juhan,

its funny you say this but this sort of telepathy happens all the time between my wife and I, I sometimes think something and my wife mention it to me or visa versa, maybe because out birthday falls onto the same day,

You will be happy with the results, your brush plate looks pretty good from here and good luck with your conversion. I've taken on the job because of the numbers of locos I have, the reduction in noise level and constant better running characteristics and of course the oiling part without oiling it will leave the brushes clean and also the armature.

John

Presumably a Drill Stand is must John ?? and a tool to secure the brushplate nice and flat and square ?? whilst it's being drilled

How much to do a few for us John ?

there are also other whole motors available, they are made in Switzerland, more or less you take your old motor out and drop your new motor in, it could be a Maxon or Faulhaber although all the gears and housing is made for Märklin locos. I can't remember whether or not they are only for drum like motors or the old version 3 pole motor as well, they weren't cheap about 80 or 90 Euros, I could be wrong, I just can't think of the name and at one stage they weren't available maybe some other members can put a light onto it

John

Nop, drop them an email once but with no response

I see you have removed the first gear in the motor housing. Presumably to drill the housing out to 4mm. Since this is a gear secured with a blind pin, how are you removing it?

Matt, the picture you are referring to is part of a motor block as mentioned comes from a Hobby ICE unpowered end car, no provisions had been there in the first place, a.) no cogwheels, no cogwheels on the axle, no rubber tyres on the wheels it was purely a motor block with 4 wheels.
Now back to your query.

the gear you are referring to, yes it is slightly covers the plastic insert but the plastic insert can be pushed from the outside in using the outer side or the other side of the gearwheel position, the hole itself after removing the plastic insert is 4mm so you don't have to do any drilling what soever, when you fit the ball bearing you press it from the out side and the ball bearing has to sit flat with inner wall of the motor block if it falls into the hole just use a toothpick with a tiny drop of super glue at the end and smear it around the outer lining of the hole, wait a couple seconds and than press the ball bearing from the outside in making sure the ball bearing is pressed in parallel with the hole, avoid trying to press it in on an angle. if your ball bearing is 2 mm thick it should be flat with the motor block on the outside and inside so no other adjustments have to be made

John

thanks Matt,

exactly, this is the one, have to scroll through again and see what they are offering

regards.

John

Hi John,

No only the whole Forum

I'm sure one of the Ausie members could provide an airconditioned room for you, could be as close as Adelaide ? come in Dusan They might even have padded ones over there too

Ray is correct about SB Modelbau but that is a whole different upgrade to ball bearings instalation on a DCM

The late Woolgang Lietenberger (Eisenbahn Clinic) who took over as US West Coast, Mid West and anywhere if you knew him and paid the freight, Marklin Repair Agent for Marklin, from Jacques Vuye ( Dr Eisenbahn) was a great advocate of the ball bearing conversion, he used to run an exchange service on Motor Shields, I was about to send him a noisey one when He passed away !

And i think i can give it a try with some of my SFCM or LCFM with permanent magnet or Uhl 76200 equipped locos, i have enough of those brush plates left to can safely spoil some....
My cheap Taiwan made caliper shows a diameter of the rotor axle of a little less than 2 mm.
I have found some 5x2.5x2 ball bearings, do you think they are suitable??
At the end i can always finish by convert the engine to 5-pole.....if anything goes wrong.....

and any preferred superglue brand??

Yes, but the ones i have found have an outside diameter of 5 mm and the thicker part of a SFCM brush plate is only 3 mm diameter, so one have to drill up to the plate itself have less surface to securely fix the ball bearing......

Well, just doing the order too......
i have a drilling stand for my Dremel, i think it is good enough for the work

I suspect Märklin might have improved the dcm motor in a similar way if they had not gone down the road of the large c-sine motor. As it turned out they subsequently decided to go for a design that would fit better in steamers, hence the sds motor. Maybe now that that has become a dead end they might consider developing the dcm again, but v I doubt it.

I wouldn't trust the Dremel stand, I've tried it with mine and there is movements in it and this could definitely drill the hole slightly off centre.

to drill a hole in a motor block with Large and small disk rotors, this is a complete different saga, first of all you need a ball bearing which is 5mm in diameter, I bought some a while back with a 6 mm diameter and you don't really want to know the outcome. I was lucky I was able to rescue the whole loco (SBB Re 4/4 (3014) but I would have a good think before attempting another one.

most of the Co-Co locos with large disk rotor could be converted but again I wouldn't try it with a 6mm ball bearing, with 5mm you would have a better chance but your need tools or a compact drill stand with no movements. the Drum collector as Juhan mentioned has 1.5 mm shaft whereas the large or small disk rotor has a 2 mm shaft at the rear.
I had an idea and may go down this path later one whereas I will go to a friend of mine and he is an industrial engineer and ask him if he can reduce the 5 pole armature shaft from the conversion set (60943, 60944) from 2mm down to 1.5mm this would be a much easier option to convert or drill a hole into the back of the motor block a 4 mm than to a 5mm or 6mm hole., a.) it would be done professionally and b.) it would eliminate extra problems commencing down the road with a 5 mm or 6 mm hole because the original hole including the oiling access with pad on these motors is mounted or has been located on the outside of the rear motor wall. by drilling a hole this would completely fall off or disappear and you than have to make sure your shaft is not too long because you've lost that extra length and this brings me to another option will the 5 pole rotor with a shaft diameter of 1.5mm (front and rear) fit when drilling a hole for a 4 mm ball bearing ?

the shaft is slightly shorter than a shaft from a 60943, 60944 conversion set I have thought about this before but never actually tried it out, one could measure the length needed and if it seems to fit cut a hole of 4 mm and if it doesn't fit cut a hole to 5mm and use the shaft with its 2mm diameter, so in the end if everything goes well you haven't done any damage or you haven't proceeded with an option with no return.

John

Hi John, I would be concerned about taking 0.5mm off the shaft as it may weeken it, especially as the back or gear end does all the work and takes the load from the gears, not to mention it would have to be milled or lathed and there is not much of the other end of the shaft to hold it with

Ray one wonders sometimes the reasons behind it, I've read it somewhere and I'm sure some of our members recall it, Märklin produced one loco or rail car with a ball bearing and our good friend, the late Wolfgang Leitenberger went on and produced these although I wasn't aware of it at the time.

as technology improves from day to day, so we believe, I find it a bit confusing why putting so much energy into a motor type and than 2, 5 years later abandon it but this is another story, I myself just opted for a motor I was happy with, it performed well, I was able to convert all my older analog locos to digital with the help of the conversion kits and my unusual taste for gadgets such as gear light, firebox light, sunny white leds, smoke generators in locos with plastic boilers, electrical 4 pin couplings and adding telex coupling to locos which never had telex couplings but deserved to have them.

the admiration of model trains lies in a lot of people of all ages but the inner works of a loco a miniscule amount of people are interested in it except people like us who has taken it up as a hobby.

as this forum plunged lately into a frenzy about different pole motors (including myself) I thought I change the turnout and introduce a topic which has helped me to reduce the maintenance on my 200 odd locos and also share the benefits it could bring and it looks like I'm not the only one who has a fetish approach changing things for the better.

going through an easy progress as shown by Matt everyone in this forum would realize having one loco will not turn the world upside down and at the same time can share their anguish or fear how to proceed if at all.

its not really about C-Sine motors or any other motor except the 5 pole motor and this what I had in mind to concentrate on instead of getting sidetracked with all other possibilities and indeed is it worth doing it.
For me it was contributing to this forum an option which is available to me and hopefully to others and I'm sure many others have already done it in the past as well.

I may consider opening another topic whereas a 3 pole motor (analog) can be converted with ball bearings or a combination of an original 3 pole analog motor but with a permanent magnet and ball bearings but for the time being I like to stick to this topic.

regards.,

John

Francisco, please read my post regarding converting locos who originally had a large or small disk armature, the conversion sets for these are 60944 and 60943 respectively, I had great difficulties(without proper tools and a static non movable drillstand) to drill a hole precisely in the centre and finished off centre and had great difficulties to correct the error I've made.
You are going far beyond the average skills one would expect and any failure of getting it right your motor block could be a scrap metal for the rubbish bin.

you also have to remove all the pin from the gear wheels, secure the motor block or the loco in an upright 90° angle and no motor block provides you with an even or flat surface, so the work you're anticipating of doing could be more difficult than you think it is and you may also have to remove the axles either 3 or 2 to obtain a solid base.



John

And if it turns to be beyond my skills and tooling, wich is very likely to be, some friends with RC helicopters will be glad to get the parts... :-D

John,
You're referring to the (2002) Insider model 37605 DB Railcar class VT 11.5.

It was from pre-MFX era (I think it's another advantage!)...

Yes, as a sign for another confusing signal from Marklin,
every follow up releases of VT11.5 models (37606, 37607, and 37608) never have any ball-bearing ever again.

37605 was released 12 years ago.....
Imagine, if Marklin had decided to follow through with the development, and pressed on with ball-bearings on every DCM model they released since then.

I'm confident it would've start a new love affair for newcomers who bought DCM models,
which even today still make up more than 50% of Marklin's New Item line up.

They could've made some money on the side too, by selling upgraded motor-shields with ball-bearing...
Those motor shields would've make nice upgrades for millions of DCM models....

Embarrassingly enough, I think DCM models aren't even properly assembled brand new.

In my experience, I have to painstakingly disassemble 2 out of 3 brand new DCM models that I bought.
No that they're badly made, it's just that the final assembly of DCM motor are a bit sloppy.

Quite often, Marklin final assembly line screwed the motor shield too tightly against the triebgestell to start with.
Loosen both screws - make them tight enough, but that not THAT tight, and you will improve the running qualities markedly.

Then the brush spring sometimes pressed too tightly against both brushes, I have to take them out too, and put them in again...
another marked improvement.

... and of course, assuming that both of the above aren't necessary, the requisite drop of oil in axle bearing is a MUST for every new DCM model.
I can't stressed this enough...

And be ready to re-oil after a few hours of running to keep their condition in tip-top shape.

The 37321 that I bought also have a disappointing load control from Marklin in-house MFX -- which is not fixable by tinkering with the parameters. I have to swap it with a spare ESU decoder, but that's a bit off-topic issue....