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Offline Janne75  
#151 Posted : 05 May 2014 07:54:09(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Janne, re: BR 91.9.

did you take off the plastic housing of the rotating disk ? I have converted 2 of them but did not find the problem you've expressed.

motor more noisy: I usually look at the angle the ball bearing sits in the brush plate by placing the armature within the ball baring from the in and outside and this gives me a visual view about the ball bearings angle position.

John


Hi John,

I can not understand what you mean by plastic housing of the rotating disc? Maybe when I will re-open it again I will remember this, but at the moment I can´t understand what you mean. About the ball bearings angle that is a good way to see if there are some ball bearing angle misalignment. Sometimes the ball bearings in the motor shield will kind of correct their angle when installing the motor back together and by running the loco if the hole for the ball bearing is correctly tight enough but not too tight to enable the bearing to move a little. But it is always good practise to install them in the right angle in the first place.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline pa-pauls  
#152 Posted : 06 May 2014 14:24:37(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Norway
Just ordered 200 of these ball bearings after Janne75 send me a link to it. Thank you !

So I will have a lot to do when it arrives Blushing

Do you always secure the ball bearing With super glue / super glue gel to be safe or is it not necessary ?
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Digital, DB and SBB Era III
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Offline biedmatt  
#153 Posted : 06 May 2014 14:30:06(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Most are a snug, press fit. Some will be loose. For those I put some CA glue on a toothpick, ran it in a circle inside the hole and then installed the bearing.

Edit: Clean the hole before gluing with a Q-tip dipped in rubbing alcohol to remove any oil.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Janne75  
#154 Posted : 06 May 2014 15:03:20(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
I have not put any glue to motor shields but in some locomotives the frame side hole is too big and the bearing therefore too loose in it. I have then put very carefully small drops of gel glue to the bearings outer part only and then checked that it still rotates like a bearing should do when it is installed in the frame and dried. Clean it like Matt suggested. When you drill the final 4.0 mm hole do it quite fast. I mean with this, don´t "hone" the hole any larger with that 4.0 mm drill to avoid the hole to be any larger than needed. Remember that plastic is a bit elastic anyway to let the bearing go in even if the hole is slightly too tight for it. If the hole is then totally too tight you can always take the 4.0 mm drill bit and hone it slightly by hand rotating the drill bit in the hole. Many of my motor shields first seem to be too tight for the bearing to fit, but when you press it in it goes ok most of the time = snap in. You can put the bearing on the table or similar and then press the motor shield on it. There are many ways to do it. No need for glue in the motor shield this way. You should drill the motor shield first with 2.0 mm, then 2.5 mm, 3.0 mm, 3.5 mm and finally that 4.0 mm drill. This helps to get the plastic motor shield hole to be bored in the center. I drilled all but a few of the first motor shields by battery operated hand drilling machine. It is easier to correct the bore to the center if needed, say you see after you have bored your 3.0 mm hole and the hole is slightly misaligned you can do the next drilling with 3.5 mm to correct it easier this way.

Pål, I´m glad you got yours ordered ThumpUp .

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#155 Posted : 06 May 2014 21:31:06(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,940
Location: Paremata, Wellington
** Disregard message below, I tried Amazon but they won't ship that deal to NZ, then I tried the other link (ebay) and no problem so I've got some on their way. Just 20 to begin with, $13.00. Cool

Will keep updated with progress.

***

I'd like to have a go at this myself, but being the timid type ("scaredy-cat" comes to mind) Blushing I would stick with just a couple of old "doesn't-matter-if-I-bugger-them-up" loco's at first.

So I don't want to order a large quantity and wondered if there's a kind soul here who could spare and sell me say just 5 or 6 of these bearings?

If I get the success I hope for then I'll be into it like a robbers dog.

Can pay by Paypal if that suits.

PM me ThumpUp

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Janne75  
#156 Posted : 10 May 2014 23:34:27(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Hi all,

Today I was running with my oldest son (6 years old) our analog locomotives on the garage layout. I took both 3104 bodys off and I had forgotten that I had already converted both of them with ball bearings as they have DCM motors. So those ball bearings made me think of my digital locomotives ball bearing conversions and especially what was left undone.

I managed to dismantle this time that very difficult Märklin 37196 DRG E 91.9 . The difficult part of this one was to be able to take the motor shield and the lowest screw away from the loco. I had to take three bolts off from siderod to put it hanging out of way from the fourth bolt. Now it has the frame side ball bearing installed and tomorrow I will drill the motor shield hole from 1.5 mm to 4.0 mm to be able to install that other ball bearing. So if you are going to do your very first ball bearing conversion, don't start with this 37196! There are much easier ones to start with Wink .

Today I also installed ball bearing in all six C-Sinus motored locomotives which I have at the moment. I will get also 39560 SBB Ce 6/8 III green C-Sinus Crocodile soon and I will immediately install a ball bearing to that one as this modification improves these C-Sinus motored locomotives also. Better to have a ball bearing than plastic bush and no drilling reguired = quickly done ThumpUp . There is not a ball bearing on the other side as the C-Sinus motor is completely different and has only a bush on the frame side (gear side). It is the same size as in DCM motored locomotives and these very same bearings go there also. I converted these C-Sinus locomotives: 39103 DB BR 01.10, 39190 DB E 19, 39221 DRG E 94, 39561 SBB 6/8 III brown Crocodile, 39579 DB BR 103, 39821 DB V 200.1. They are all perfect now! Smile

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#157 Posted : 10 May 2014 23:45:48(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 652
Hello Janne,
I'm surprised, that the C-Sinus has bearings in the other side. I will check my 39190, too.
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Offline Janne75  
#158 Posted : 10 May 2014 23:51:51(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Janne,
I'm surprised, that the C-Sinus has bearings in the other side. I will check my 39190, too.


Hi,

Yes these C-Sinus motored have bush on the frame side, but SDS motored don't have as it is again completely different. You have to install the bearing in place of that plastic bush like with DCM locomotives.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#159 Posted : 11 May 2014 11:19:13(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
37196 DRG E 91.9 is now converted with ball bearings and runs even better than before. So no locomotives to convert anymore, until I get more of them with DCM or C-Sinus motors. I have still 68 ball bearings left so maybe later... BigGrin

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline pa-pauls  
#160 Posted : 11 May 2014 11:37:50(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Norway
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
..... So no locomotives to convert anymore.....


Just take a trip to me and I'll put you to work on my locomotive's !!! BigGrin

Pål Paulsen
Märklin Digital, DB and SBB Era III
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Offline river6109  
#161 Posted : 04 September 2016 14:13:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I've just revisited this topic and I thank you all who have contributed or has taken it on board. it is one of the viewer topics with such results and interest. this is what I like about forums if one can make things better for each other we should be able to share such knowledge and I'm pleased I did and it had some quite effects on many members, thank you again for participating.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Hackcell  
#162 Posted : 13 July 2017 01:25:55(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 520
I'll start with my machines and I found SKF builds that kind of roll bearing.


http://www.skf.com/group...gnation=W%20638%2F1.5-2Z

I have to quote the price, but if you ask me, I'll go with SKF... At the end I'll do this to only 8 engines.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#163 Posted : 13 July 2017 22:52:35(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 652
Hello Danilo,
Do You think, the SKF is worth to pay between 8€ and 12€ for each ball bearing?

OK, it is stainless steel, but still a high price compared to those, I get for 1,25€.

Regards,
Moritz
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Offline river6109  
#164 Posted : 14 July 2017 11:50:39(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Danilo,
Do You think, the SKF is worth to pay between 8€ and 12€ for each ball bearing?

OK, it is stainless steel, but still a high price compared to those, I get for 1,25€.

Regards,
Moritz


Moritz or less: Euro 0.86 for 50 units

www.shop.kkpmo.com

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#165 Posted : 18 July 2017 08:34:08(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 652
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Moritz or less: Euro 0.86 for 50 units



This price is without Tax of 23%. But it is a good shop, I buy specific gear wheels in this shop. Very friendly and helpful.
Offline river6109  
#166 Posted : 18 July 2017 09:28:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Moritz or less: Euro 0.86 for 50 units



This price is without Tax of 23%. But it is a good shop, I buy specific gear wheels in this shop. Very friendly and helpful.


Well, ordering from Australia we don't pay tax

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#167 Posted : 27 July 2017 04:03:16(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,333
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I had a conversation with John about this conversion and he mentioned about a centre drill piece for the 4mm ball bearing hole and noticed it hasn't been mentioned here.

http://www.ebay.com.au/i...e1602:g:Tt4AAOSw-vlVjLu2

I bought this set on advice from John and used it for the first time with a cordless drill and the result was perfect. Highly recommend it.
One of those has the same diameter as the current hole and bores it out to 4mm. cordless drill on slow speed just on a bench and it was clean and precise.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline river6109  
#168 Posted : 27 July 2017 06:45:51(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
I had a conversation with John about this conversion and he mentioned about a centre drill piece for the 4mm ball bearing hole and noticed it hasn't been mentioned here.

http://www.ebay.com.au/i...e1602:g:Tt4AAOSw-vlVjLu2

I bought this set on advice from John and used it for the first time with a cordless drill and the result was perfect. Highly recommend it.
One of those has the same diameter as the current hole and bores it out to 4mm. cordless drill on slow speed just on a bench and it was clean and precise.


good news, so its not only me who can drill a hole BigGrin as you said the tip of the centre drill is 1.5mm and than expands to 4mm, the 5mm centre drill has a tip of 2mm again suitable for the motor bogie hole.

I hope more modelers would take on this exercise as it saves you maintenance and other problems down the track.

Märklin should have changed it over to ball bearings years ago if it is so easy for us to do it; there was no excuse for Märklin not going down that path from the 70's onwards. it also showed clearly Märklin tried to correct the problem when a.) different metals meet or metal and plastic doesn't go together but in the end they gave up.; these days Märklin is introducing more and more DC motors whereas a ball bearing(s) is not necessarily needed.

some modelers have also asked the question numeral times: Why should I add ball bearings and what are the benefits ?

a.) the motor runs quieter
b.) no more oiling is needed for the armature shaft (front & back)
c.) because there is no more oil present the brushes will last longer and so will the armature
d.) less oil will get onto the tracks (less maintenance)
e.) to have the motor run smoother there is still another problem present:

when Märklin presses the brush holder assembly onto to the brush plate , the force can lift the brush holder assembly upwards and therefore distorts the true 90° angle between brush holder/armature and brush plate. I've written to Märklin years ago pointing out the manufacturer process 90° aligning fault between armature and the brushes over time they did adjust the force when fitting the brush holder assembly onto the brush plate but it still doesn't solve the problem 100 % what they should have done is extend the brush holder shaft and than secure it onto the brush plate at the end by tucking it underneath the brush plate this way the brush holder assembly would never be able to lift up.

this is one of the reasons you may wonder sometimes why is one loco running smoothly and the other at a lesser speed.; another observation should be noted: the tension spring tension



regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#169 Posted : 27 July 2017 07:00:28(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I'll start with my machines and I found SKF builds that kind of roll bearing.


http://www.skf.com/group...gnation=W%20638%2F1.5-2Z

I have to quote the price, but if you ask me, I'll go with SKF... At the end I'll do this to only 8 engines.



don't forget its a model train and not an article that goes deep into space. 99 % of ball bearings are made out of stainless steel and the ones I buy are as well and they do the job sufficiently for the application we are talking about. the main characteristics we need is: smooth running, no more oil, and no oxidation between 2 different metals.

regards.,

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline dominator  
#170 Posted : 27 July 2017 10:39:40(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 678
Location: Kerikeri
50 bearings just arrived for me last week. Didn't cost much and I was surprised how small the package was. Could easily get 300 of those into my wallet as well as a few coins.
Might star with the 3000's first.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline river6109  
#171 Posted : 27 July 2017 17:50:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
50 bearings just arrived for me last week. Didn't cost much and I was surprised how small the package was. Could easily get 300 of those into my wallet as well as a few coins.
Might star with the 3000's first.
Dereck


good luck Dereck


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#172 Posted : 10 August 2017 23:15:57(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,333
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I converted and test my BR 80 (37046) last night after doing the brush shafts and ball bearing install.

The ball bearing install was text book. With the smooth hole from the centre drill, it looks like a factory installation.

Unfortunately I don't think it has improved the noise of the DCM motor.
More so, now at high speed it has a whine which gets louder - though such a locomotive is not to be driven at such a speed.

It could be the brushes need time to wear after the shaft position may have changed slightly, or it could be the ball bearings themselves?

In any case it is hard to compare without the original, so for my next conversion of a rather noisy BR52, I will do a before and after video.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline applor  
#173 Posted : 12 August 2017 11:03:14(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,333
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
OK I did my BR52 (37151) today.

I have taken a photo of the neat conversion and 2 sets of videos of before/after to compare noise.

To my ears there is no discernable difference. I feel in this case the noise is more drivetrain/transmission than the rotor.

What do you gents think? What can I do to improve transmission noise - grease or oil?

BR52 ball bearing installed.JPG

Forward slow speed before/after




Reverse medium speed before/after


modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline river6109  
#174 Posted : 12 April 2018 11:14:56(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Eric,

this looks very very neat & clean, what type of drill did you use ? just check the left hand brush holder and see if its flat with the brush plate and not raised, this again will affect the locos running and noise level.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#175 Posted : 12 April 2018 19:52:58(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,333
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Eric,

this looks very very neat & clean, what type of drill did you use ? just check the left hand brush holder and see if its flat with the brush plate and not raised, this again will affect the locos running and noise level.

John


Hi John and thanks. I just used a cordless drill. I ended up selling this model so no further work possible. I did check brush alignment at the time and it would have been OK.
My only other thought is that it may just have needed some running in time - I had barely run it.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline jvuye  
#176 Posted : 12 April 2018 20:55:42(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,622
Location: South Western France
I know this is off topic, but I think it's appropriate to repeat what I wrote years ago on the"noisy Märklin locos" subject.

The "noise" of the original Märklin motors has been a topic of interest for as long as I have played with trains (i.e. over 65 years)

The noise originates essentially in the gear train as you may have suspected.
The commutator is also a notable noise source, especially the flat versions of older locos, and finally the magnetic noise of the AC powered motors is the source of that buzzing we have all learned to love.( with a somewhat higher pitch in 60 Hz countries...) Wink

In theory, an ideally cut and assembled gear train should make *no noise at all*, as there should be no friction between meshing surfaces: they are supposed to **roll** on each other. No rubbing.

Knowing that you'll find lots of noisy gears on Märklin locos for a number of reasons:

1° gears don't exhibit a perfect profile. This was especially true in the days where gears were stamped , not machine cut.
It was the years of hit and miss : If your loco was mounted with **all* its gears cut with fresh dies, you'd be lucky and had a fairly quiet loco, but more than often you had at least one imperfect one in the lot, with the corresponding "racket" as a bonusRollEyes . .
Luckily today, gears are cut accurately and repeatably on automated gear cutting machines, as I was able to witness during several factory tours. And progress is really obvious here.


2° gears are not mounted at the correct Center Distance (which is calculated as 1/2 (D1 +D2) where D1 and D2 are the respective pitch diameter of the two meshing gears.)
That's a rare occurence, but still has happened.

3° the gears' rotational axles are not perfectly parallel .
This can happen simply from a sloppy adjustment between axle and wheel : if they "wiggle" on their axle they'll be noisy!
No exception here.
And it can often be compounded with the rubbing of the wheels against each other or against the motor body.

And that's the one that you can improve with the ball bearing on the motor shaft, at least for the motor's axle.
The rest of the gear train remains unchanged though
Thus, to cure the problem completely, you need to correct the meshing and alignment for **all** the wheels in the gear train.

I have even reworked some gears in old locos, adding an accurately adusted bronze bushing inserted in the gear or even cutting an all new bronze wheel like I did for my MS 800

And one more thing: no amount of "running in" will turn a noisy gear train into a silent one.
A little grease on rubbing surfaces will **temporarily ** improve the situation.

Hope this helps

Jacques


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#177 Posted : 25 April 2018 00:42:29(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
I just purchase one of these drill alignment tools. It's a guide to drill accurate 90 degree holes. I'm hoping to use it when I drill out the hole in my 3032 BR 81 frame for the motor conversion from SFCM to 5 pole DCM. I do a followup report on how well it works once it arrives and I can test it.

https://www.shop.biggato...-MDG1000NP-MDG1000NP.htm
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#178 Posted : 27 April 2018 13:06:52(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
As a follow up to my previous post, the drill alignment tool arrived and I tested it out. There is very little play between the drill bit and the corresponding hole in the tool which needs to be for it to perform it function accurately. Unfortunately because of the design of the Märklin 3032 chassis casting, I couldn't get the tool clamped in a satisfactory position to drill the enlarging hole for the 2mm X 5mm bearing. Sad

So, in the end I just resorted to drilling the hole out manually using my large pin vise. I only went to 4mm and will do the last 1mm using a hand reamer. My plan is to go slowly and remove just a little from each end of the hole until I obtain a snug fit with the 2mm X 5mm bearing. Wink

Chuck
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Offline cookee_nz  
#179 Posted : 28 April 2018 04:59:42(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,940
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
As a follow up to my previous post, the drill alignment tool arrived and I tested it out. There is very little play between the drill bit and the corresponding hole in the tool which needs to be for it to perform it function accurately. Unfortunately because of the design of the Märklin 3032 chassis casting, I couldn't get the tool clamped in a satisfactory position to drill the enlarging hole for the 2mm X 5mm bearing. Sad

So, in the end I just resorted to drilling the hole out manually using my large pin vise. I only went to 4mm and will do the last 1mm using a hand reamer. My plan is to go slowly and remove just a little from each end of the hole until I obtain a snug fit with the 2mm X 5mm bearing. Wink

Chuck


Yes, when I saw the image of the tool I wondered if the lack of a flush surface on the chassis might be an issue.

If you were doing a few, and you have a drill-press then it might be worth making up some sort of a jig to hold the chassis securely? and perhaps a couple of small spirit-levels for absolute accuracy but it could still prove to be a bit fiddly.

All manner of laser-levelers are now available also and that might even be an option?
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#180 Posted : 30 April 2018 13:47:59(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
I recently completed my first conversion to ball bearings in a V140 Diesel from the 37203 "Forefathers" set. These are several things I discovered that I like to add to the conversion.

First, like several others here I didn't really notice any real reduction the the noise level. I would agree that any improvement to the motor bearings isn't going to overcome the noise generated by the array of whirilling spur gears in the drivetrain. Oddly enough this is not an annoyance to me. My guess is that I'm used to it and don't really notice anymore. If you're planning on doing this conversion in the hope that you engine is not going to run silently, I think you in for a big disappointment. Do it for the lubricating and commutator dust benefits.

Secondly, when you remove the plastic (delrin?) bearing from the frame side, I went to install the new bearing from the outside and notice it didn't fit because the hole was too small. Upon further investigation by first using my dial caliper to check the outside diameter of the bearing that there is a very small lip on the outside of the bearing hole and the new ball bearing must be installed from the inside (motor armature/anker side).

Lastly, living in the USA where fraction sized drill bits are way more common than metric bits, you only need a metric bit the size required of the finished hole which in this case is 4mm when drilling out the motor shield. You don't need to actually go up 0.5 mm sizes until you reach 4mm. You can use any size drill bit just so long as it's SMALLER than the ending 4mm size. So you don't need to go and buy a complete set of metric drill bits, just the size that you need for the finished hole.

I hope that this is some help to anyone planning to do this conversion.

Chuck
Offline jvuye  
#181 Posted : 30 April 2018 19:12:34(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,622
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
I recently completed my first conversion to ball bearings in a V140 Diesel from the 37203 "Forefathers" set. These are several things I discovered that I like to add to the conversion.

First, like several others here I didn't really notice any real reduction the the noise level. I would agree that any improvement to the motor bearings isn't going to overcome the noise generated by the array of whirilling spur gears in the drivetrain. Oddly enough this is not an annoyance to me. My guess is that I'm used to it and don't really notice anymore. If you're planning on doing this conversion in the hope that you engine is not going to run silently, I think you in for a big disappointment. Do it for the lubricating and commutator dust benefits.

Secondly, when you remove the plastic (delrin?) bearing from the frame side, I went to install the new bearing from the outside and notice it didn't fit because the hole was too small. Upon further investigation by first using my dial caliper to check the outside diameter of the bearing that there is a very small lip on the outside of the bearing hole and the new ball bearing must be installed from the inside (motor armature/anker side).

Lastly, living in the USA where fraction sized drill bits are way more common than metric bits, you only need a metric bit the size required of the finished hole which in this case is 4mm when drilling out the motor shield. You don't need to actually go up 0.5 mm sizes until you reach 4mm. You can use any size drill bit just so long as it's SMALLER than the ending 4mm size. So you don't need to go and buy a complete set of metric drill bits, just the size that you need for the finished hole.

I hope that this is some help to anyone planning to do this conversion.

Chuck


In theory, you are right.
The point here though is your proposed method will only work perfectly if the "pre drilingl" and the "finish drilling" are made with the lok's chassis properly clamped on the drill press so you know the drilling will be perfectly concentric when you use the 4 mm bit.
Drilling a 4 mm hole into a 3.5 mm one , there is no self centering effect of the larger drill bit

This centering drill bits however allow for a one shot operation , but again only on a drill press and progressing slowly as the small diam head is fragile as glass

4 mm/1.6 mm centering drill


I strongly recommend against "free-hand" drilling here.
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline river6109  
#182 Posted : 01 May 2018 04:58:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
I recently completed my first conversion to ball bearings in a V140 Diesel from the 37203 "Forefathers" set. These are several things I discovered that I like to add to the conversion.

First, like several others here I didn't really notice any real reduction the the noise level. I would agree that any improvement to the motor bearings isn't going to overcome the noise generated by the array of whirilling spur gears in the drivetrain. Oddly enough this is not an annoyance to me. My guess is that I'm used to it and don't really notice anymore. If you're planning on doing this conversion in the hope that you engine is not going to run silently, I think you in for a big disappointment. Do it for the lubricating and commutator dust benefits.

Secondly, when you remove the plastic (delrin?) bearing from the frame side, I went to install the new bearing from the outside and notice it didn't fit because the hole was too small. Upon further investigation by first using my dial caliper to check the outside diameter of the bearing that there is a very small lip on the outside of the bearing hole and the new ball bearing must be installed from the inside (motor armature/anker side).

Lastly, living in the USA where fraction sized drill bits are way more common than metric bits, you only need a metric bit the size required of the finished hole which in this case is 4mm when drilling out the motor shield. You don't need to actually go up 0.5 mm sizes until you reach 4mm. You can use any size drill bit just so long as it's SMALLER than the ending 4mm size. So you don't need to go and buy a complete set of metric drill bits, just the size that you need for the finished hole.

I hope that this is some help to anyone planning to do this conversion.

Chuck


In theory, you are right.
The point here though is your proposed method will only work perfectly if the "pre drilingl" and the "finish drilling" are made with the lok's chassis properly clamped on the drill press so you know the drilling will be perfectly concentric when you use the 4 mm bit.
Drilling a 4 mm hole into a 3.5 mm one , there is no self centering effect of the larger drill bit

This centering drill bits however allow for a one shot operation , but again only on a drill press and progressing slowly as the small diam head is fragile as glass

4 mm/1.6 mm centering drill


I strongly recommend against "free-hand" drilling here.


Jaques, you're absolutely right bout "free hand" drilling but I've managed to line up the centre drill in a most perfect position but I don't have any proof as such as it is my eyesight which had determined what is a 90° (brush plate) when it comes to motor block it is more difficult to determine what is a true 90° angle.
I must admit I have had 2 out of line drill experiences but was able to correct it in the end by drilling sideways as the hole I've created was to far away from the first cogwheel, since than I've learned to go as slow as possible and just putting enough pressure on it without shaving away to much and checking from time to time I'm still on the right track.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline skeeterbuck  
#183 Posted : 01 May 2018 13:13:37(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
I agree Jacques that a quality drill press is the way to go, especially if your doing them as a professional. You need to enlarge the hole accurately but if it's off ever so slightly it will still work fine. We're not talking Swiss "watch making" here. Even the replacement permanent magnet and motor shield from Märklin have a little amount of play in them when you mount them. Of course I'm talking a fraction of a millimeter.

When I drill them, I use a drill bit in a chuck that I turn by hand. No power tools are involved. That way I can constantly check my progress with each hole enlargement so if I make a slight error I can quickly stop and make corrections. Also, when drilling out the motor shield, you can use the raised circular ridge molded into the plastic as a guide in keeping the hole centered.

Here's some pics of my BR81 that I'm currently in the process of upgrading. I'm hoping when I finished that this engine will have smoke, independent telex couplers, LED's lights, cab light, and sound.

Chuck

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by skeeterbuck
Offline W3Machinist  
#184 Posted : 02 February 2019 20:02:42(UTC)
W3Machinist

United States   
Joined: 19/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: North Carolina, Locust
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I have looked at the motor shield for some years how, a matter of fact since the 5 pole high efficiency motor came out because with this motor there is little allowance for any movements and any abnormalities within the motor shield or the motor block as a whole could result in the motor either not running at all or it runs with excessive noise.
another observation I've made, the motor block in its early stages including all the analog motors and locos weren't always precise and more care would have taken place when the 5 pole motor was introduced and who knows they may have re machined them.

Anyhow the motor block was never a number 1 problem it happened occasionally or one could say on rare occasions.
When we talk about the motor shield there has been one change from the previous, it is much thinner because of the wider perm. magnet.

the brush shaft assembly with its tension spring is pressed by machine onto the brush plate and if it is pressed to hard the hole assembly no longer lays flat but it has lifted itself at the end of the brush plate by doing this it is no longer at a 90° angle in relation to the armature and therefore prevents it from running at its top speed and also created extra noise.

the armature shaft over time either by usage or being idle for too long can also create more noise. oiling of course is the obvious answer but it doesn't resolve the noise level completely by adding 2 4mm x 2mm x 1.5mm ball bearings on each side eliminates 2 problems a.) oiling and b.) noise level.

the ball bearing on the motor block can be replace directly by removing the plastic insert whereas the motor shield a 4mm hole has to be drilled precisely,

my sketches and illustration below shows you the state of the motor shield it could be in and the state or position it should be in.

my solution to the problem is to lift the brush shaft slightly higher, get a toothpick and put a fine drop of superglue on it and than place the toothpick between the brush shaft and the motor shield and press it down with a pair of pointed pliers, there has to be enough superglue to bind the 2 parts together. do not try to do this while the brushes are still inserted nor do it while the motor shield is still attached or screwed to the motor block with its armature sitting inside.

the middle section is a front view and the right hand side a side view and the top sketch shows you the gap between the shaft and the motor shield itself.


regards.,

Johnmotorshield 1.jpg


In reading your post this is what my mind understands, you are line boring the motor housing so the motor runs with less friction and to have the brushes square with the armature. Please educate me if I am not on the right of way!

A suggestion for making the alignment more acurate, remove the armature and any gears that extend into the hole in the metal side of the motor housing, then remount the brush plate onto the main motor housing and screw into location. Now drill as you have listed FROM THE METAL SIDE OF THE MOTOR SHELL (this will allow the hole in the metal side to guide you.) to 3.5mm and stop. Obtain a 4mm six blade reammer and finish the hole which will be well aligned. Hopefully this will sooth the nerves of thoes who are unsure of the freehand method and give them confidence in the finished product.

I look forward to your input on this,
Thank you,
WoodyMellow
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