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Offline Janne75  
#51 Posted : 10 February 2014 11:25:27(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Hi all,

Very interesting topic. I have many DCM 5-pole motored locos, so I want to also try this ball bearing thing. Actually I did not know before that no drilling is needed for the motor block itself and only bushing has to be removed. Makes life much easier...

I just thought is there any ceramic ball bearings available in these very small sizes 4 x 2 x 1.5 mm? I have ceramic ball bearings in one of my RC 1:8 4WD Nitro Buggy. I once read an article about these ceramic ball bearings in road cycling (racing) bicycle and it became very sensitive vs. normal ball bearings and the friction was even lower. Maybe this same is not needed with our very small DCM motors in MRR, but if they are available in the correct size I would like to give them a try with one loco. Obviously they are more expensive, but not so much.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline river6109  
#52 Posted : 10 February 2014 12:26:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

Very interesting topic. I have many DCM 5-pole motored locos, so I want to also try this ball bearing thing. Actually I did not know before that no drilling is needed for the motor block itself and only bushing has to be removed. Makes life much easier...

I just thought is there any ceramic ball bearings available in these very small sizes 4 x 2 x 1.5 mm? I have ceramic ball bearings in one of my RC 1:8 4WD Nitro Buggy. I once read an article about these ceramic ball bearings in road cycling (racing) bicycle and it became very sensitive vs. normal ball bearings and the friction was even lower. Maybe this same is not needed with our very small DCM motors in MRR, but if they are available in the correct size I would like to give them a try with one loco. Obviously they are more expensive, but not so much.

Regards,
Janne


Janne,
In Australia these type or any micro ball bearings, you can't buy them and the best chance is searching google for German firms or even American firms.

See if you can find out more as I would be interested as well.

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Janne75  
#53 Posted : 10 February 2014 12:43:03(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
John,

Here is what I found:

MR681XC-ZZ ceramic ball bearings

I just wonder why they write the bearing sizes in this way 1.5x4x2 (ID, OD, W)? I am used to OD, W, ID way.

These pieces are quite pricey and actually they are hybrid ball bearings like almost all are. Otherwise steel but ceramic balls. These are reducing friction even more than normal ball bearings, but can we see any improvements over your ball bearing versions? I don't really think so.


Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline biedmatt  
#54 Posted : 10 February 2014 13:57:06(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
John,

Here is what I found:

MR681XC-ZZ ceramic ball bearings

I just wonder why they write the bearing sizes in this way 1.5x4x2 (ID, OD, W)? I am used to OD, W, ID way.

These pieces are quite pricey and actually they are hybrid ball bearings like almost all are. Otherwise steel but ceramic balls. These are reducing friction even more than normal ball bearings, but can we see any improvements over your ball bearing versions? I don't really think so.


Regards,
Janne


My understanding is ID - OD - W is the accepted standard for the order.

I found some ceramic bearings, but they were something like $6 each. For a couple dozen lokos, I decided that was going to be way too much.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Webmaster  
#55 Posted : 10 February 2014 18:06:07(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
I have a stash of bearings of suitable size, they are open (no metal shield on the sides).

PM me if you need some...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Webmaster  
#56 Posted : 10 February 2014 19:16:01(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
Now - here is my thinking about how I would do the drilling next weekend... The aim is to not drill through the whole plastic piece...

My only thoughts are - Should I do it from the outside of the motor cover or from the inside ?

My initial thought was " from outside", but if the bearing could be aligned on the "inside", I now think that would be better...
It's quite fun to think about these detail variations about what would be the best approach...

Will have to practice on old analog DCM covers first, of course... BigGrin
Webmaster attached the following image(s):
bearingshieldplan.jpg
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Online franciscohg  
#57 Posted : 10 February 2014 19:54:03(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Interesting approach
Do you think the plastic is thick enough to do that kind of tooling?
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Webmaster  
#58 Posted : 10 February 2014 20:27:07(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
The plastic seems to be thick enough for the 1.2mm wide bearings I have (if from "inside"), but maybe not for the 2mm wide bearings I also have...
If using the "outside" approach, it could work with either...

I got this idea since it would then be easy to align the bearing if they had a "rest" area around the edges.
The perfect practical solution would of course to use flanged bearings in a drill through, but they are so darn expensive in these small dimensions...

I'll probably end up drilling right through as shown earlier in the topic, but I thought this idea should be tested too before scrapping it completely... BigGrin

Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Janne75  
#59 Posted : 10 February 2014 21:25:51(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Juhan, I think your idea is very good and you should give it a try. Actually, I just thought before that this is the way how John did his DCM ball bearing conversions. Now when I saw this topic I just realised that the bushing is removed and that gives one 4 mm ready hole for a bearing and plastic motor shield is drilled through to get another 4 mm hole for another bearing. Your way could be worth to try at least! If you manage to get the bearing to stay level better with your method it is fantastic. ThumpUp If you manage to do that well, then I know where I will send my motor covers soon Wink BigGrin LOL ...

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Online franciscohg  
#60 Posted : 11 February 2014 01:00:54(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
I think that is a great idea too, more precise drilling work thought.....
If well done the ball bearing will be much more securely fitted in place
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline biedmatt  
#61 Posted : 11 February 2014 01:50:27(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
A drill might be a problem with the point. In order to get the depth needed for the bearing to fit, you may not end up with the amount of material desired around the center. A 4mm end mill may be better to cut the hole. This would give a hole with a much flatter bottom. Definitely a job for a drill press. I'd use the stop to control depth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/...AT-ENDMILL-/171137378846
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#62 Posted : 11 February 2014 03:12:39(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Tim,

when you've mentioned the screws too tight, the motor shield itself there is a minute movement in any direction and even this makes a difference in the running characteristics.

All we need now is a free ticket to the Göppingen factory and tell them what they should be doing and until we have the proof they've changed everything we've asked for we're not leaving BigGrin

John.



Hi John,

When I was there on the factory tour during the Marklin Days Fri Sept '13, I had those sort of thoughts very much in mind. Wink I thought I could help them with a thing or two Woot
However on the day the only Loks I saw being assembled & tested were the '58, which made me proud, or not, I'm not sure, that I had recieved my '58 in the week before leaving NZ for De. Certainly relieved it wasn't languishing at the Post Office Scared
I was impressed by the care taken with the work I saw by the staff at the various stages of assembly ThumpUp
We did see the Starlight Express Loks (BR101 with DCM) at the printing stage and I was hoping to see the Motor Bogie assembly but anyway, the assembly of them and fitting of Motor Shields is done before they reach the final assembly hall RollEyes However (off topic) we did see the tyres being fitted to the wheels on axles, by a machine, prior to the axles being fitted to the driving bogie (Truck) but I did not see the assembly of the motor Bogies other wise their problems would all be fixed now ! Wink
I concure with what was mentioned above about a little bit of adjustment/movement of the Motor Shield position to quieten a noisey DCM assembly, and checking of brush holder alignment etc, my learned friend The Train Dr has spoken lots about those issues when I've complained about noisey DCMs, and of course mentions when he has done the same when doing conversions for me !
I consider myself fortunate to have owned a 37605 VT11.5 Railcar for 8 years now, and it certainly is a lovely, quiet and smooth runner, and even with the old style sound "generators" make very nice V12 diesel noises, from both end's of the model, especially at crawling speed Woot.
I wonder, has any of you ball bearingers above thought of looking at 37605 motor bogie (power truck) to see how Marklin do it ?
just don't ask to pull mine apart Scared Wink Smile
Next time I get her out for a run, I may lube the axles, but the ball bearing motors wil be fine ThumpUp
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline river6109  
#63 Posted : 11 February 2014 03:31:54(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
John,

Here is what I found:

MR681XC-ZZ ceramic ball bearings

I just wonder why they write the bearing sizes in this way 1.5x4x2 (ID, OD, W)? I am used to OD, W, ID way.

These pieces are quite pricey and actually they are hybrid ball bearings like almost all are. Otherwise steel but ceramic balls. These are reducing friction even more than normal ball bearings, but can we see any improvements over your ball bearing versions? I don't really think so.


Regards,
Janne


Janne, this is quite a jump in price, I pay about A$ 0.80 for each ball baring and the ceramic ones are about A$ 15.00 x 2 for each loco multiplied by 100 = A$ 3000.00 but hey thanks for the link, very much appreciated, I will keep it.

I may just order 2 for the heck of it and see what difference it makes.

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#64 Posted : 11 February 2014 03:36:56(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
A drill might be a problem with the point. In order to get the depth needed for the bearing to fit, you may not end up with the amount of material desired around the center. A 4mm end mill may be better to cut the hole. This would give a hole with a much flatter bottom. Definitely a job for a drill press. I'd use the stop to control depth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/...AT-ENDMILL-/171137378846


Matt thanks for that, I have to go down the local hardware shop but I'm finding Western Australia is very short on any precision tools or drill bit like the one you've shown, it is frustrating every time you want to buy something it has to come from overseas, it may be it is produced overseas in the first place but most the time its not available here.
Off topic: bought some ESU modules and they need some connectors: not available here and I've purchased them through ebay.

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#65 Posted : 11 February 2014 03:50:55(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
The plastic seems to be thick enough for the 1.2mm wide bearings I have (if from "inside"), but maybe not for the 2mm wide bearings I also have...
If using the "outside" approach, it could work with either...

I got this idea since it would then be easy to align the bearing if they had a "rest" area around the edges.
The perfect practical solution would of course to use flanged bearings in a drill through, but they are so darn expensive in these small dimensions...

I'll probably end up drilling right through as shown earlier in the topic, but I thought this idea should be tested too before scrapping it completely... BigGrin



Juhan,

I had some ball bearing with 1.5 mm thickness and found they are to thin to be secured properly by my method. a 2mm ball bearing sits just nice well I would say perfect and it has enough tightness around it, when I drill the hole and its not always exactly the same diameter by pressing it into the motor shield afterwards when aligning the ball bearing to its true position by sticking the armature into it you can see the distance between the 5 poles and the motor shield back flat surface and you can ascertain with your eyes if the rotor is turning at an 90° angle if there is some difference with the gap between rotor and motor shield you can adjust it slightly with the rotor itself to make sure it has the same distance when turning, of course the last thing is will it turn when you assembly the motor. 99 out of 100 it will without any adjustments.
My suggestion would be for anybody trying it not to drill the hole too wide if the ball bearing falls through you may already create a non perfect centre senario.

earlier suggestion using a Dremel drill (Francisco) , the Dremel chuck I don't think will hold a 4mm drill

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#66 Posted : 11 February 2014 04:08:40(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi everyone,

I'm really pleased with this topic, with many responses, it brings so many good and interesting ideas together and what looked like was an impossible task, has become, I hope by the time we've finished establishing the easiest or best way to drill a hole a task everyone who is willing to give it a go, can now or will be able to achieve.
We've overcome the myth about the hole in the motor block has to be drilled whereas it was as easy as abc by just removing the plastic insert.

our next task could be to establish who supplies a good enclosed ball bearing and at the same time at a reasonable price

my supplier is Mikro Antriebe and he has other very interesting products such as prefabricated road car systems, he does ship worldwide and excepts paypal and his deliveries are prompt., I must stress I have no affiliation with this company. the proprietor I believe is German but the company or factory is in Poland, by the time you order 50 (this is how many I buy at any given time) or so you get a discount or ask if there is a discount available when buying in bulk.

50 x Miniature Ball Bearings 1,5mm 4mm 2mm = 0,86 EUR 43,00 EUR + Euro 5.00 postage

shipping time: 2-6 workdays ready to send


http://www.shop.kkpmo.co...5f4d93ea83b093bc7c6f625d

Well it looks like the forum is on a roll again with out too many squeaks, screeches and unpleasant noises, BigGrin BigGrin
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Online franciscohg  
#67 Posted : 11 February 2014 04:46:22(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
oh John, why are you making things so hard for me??????BigGrin BigGrin
it does not fit.....Cursing
well. i dont want to do it by hand, neither got another person to do it for me
so.....i am a little town, away from everything......more than you John you can bet it, but
i know the right person to help me. The gun maker/repair man, i will ask him to put my drills on a lathe to make the end fit in the wider dremel adapter.
Since it will be to drill only plastic and at low low revolutions i think it will be no real problem.....
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline river6109  
#68 Posted : 11 February 2014 05:14:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
oh John, why are you making things so hard for me??????BigGrin BigGrin
it does not fit.....Cursing
well. i dont want to do it by hand, neither got another person to do it for me
so.....i am a little town, away from everything......more than you John you can bet it, but
i know the right person to help me. The gun maker/repair man, i will ask him to put my drills on a lathe to make the end fit in the wider dremel adapter.
Since it will be to drill only plastic and at low low revolutions i think it will be no real problem.....


Francisco,

I'm glad you're getting there slowly, as you know Rome wasn't build in one day and climbing Mt. Everest was never an easy task, you have to prepare yourself for it.
You'll get there in the end, I'm sure of it.Wink

regards.,

John



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Webmaster  
#69 Posted : 14 February 2014 20:30:20(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
Well, I bought a Dremel 8100 and the drill stand for it today...

Now it's about learning how to use it, and select the best "bits" to use while drilling/routing....

The only thing I worry about is that 5000 rpm as the minimum from the Dremel is too much for plastic...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline river6109  
#70 Posted : 15 February 2014 10:23:16(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Well, I bought a Dremel 8100 and the drill stand for it today...

Now it's about learning how to use it, and select the best "bits" to use while drilling/routing....

The only thing I worry about is that 5000 rpm as the minimum from the Dremel is too much for plastic...


Juhan,

I had my Dremel drill for years now and it is still working today without a hitch, I also bought the Dremel stand but found it wasn't completely static and showed some movements enough for me not to pursue this option with the stand, the other thing you quite rightly expressed your concern are the 5000 rpm and these amount of revolution per minute isn't good for plastic or for that matter for any drill bit it just burns the drill or melts the plastic. I have a cordless drill which has a much lower variable speed setting but is a bit bulky.
as mentioned before the Dremel chuck it doesn't take a 4mm drill but I think it was mentioned you can fit a larger size chuck onto it.

using an old motor shield is a brilliant idea and this will give you all the results you need and didn't need BigGrin

good luck I may invest into another drill stand, they are so cheap these days, we shifted house it was to heavy to shift so I sold it.

regards.,

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Online franciscohg  
#71 Posted : 15 February 2014 14:13:01(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Well my old, old Dremel marks 10.000 to 33.000 rpm, but if you shift the lever just out of the of position, it turns to turn very slow, you can stop it with your fingers with no harm at all, i will also give some trys with ald DCM motors first of course
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Webmaster  
#72 Posted : 15 February 2014 22:14:54(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
Well, my tests today concluded that my initial idea was crap.... A full 4 mm hole is the way to go, since the plastic was a bit on the thin side for my skills...

Went through 3 standard DCM motor shields as a practice, and I ended up with drilling the hole to 3.2 mm with the Dremel stuff.
Then I used a pointy triangular model file to grate the top end of the hole a little bit wider (just turning it around in the hole), and finally I used
a 4 mm drill bit (turning it by hand) to get the final size of the hole... Result - bearing fits snugly and rotor spins nicely...

Think I have accumulated enough courage to do the "real deal" soon, with a Digital DCM plate....

Dremel 8100 runs at 5000 RPM as lowest and it's a bit much, but with care - it will do... Have ordered 4 mm drill bits with 3.2 mm shafts for it from Germany (Conrad)...
Have also bought a heavy holding block for the drill stand today to hold the shields while drilling... Now I just have to get some nuts & bolts from work
to secure it in a static position so it can hold the shields to be drilled without mishaps...

There are a lot of 6090 loks to be modified this way... Wink

And if the Dremel stuff & stand is not 100%, at least I have a new tool in my workshop corner that can be used for other things too... BigGrin
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline cookee_nz  
#73 Posted : 16 February 2014 04:13:43(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,940
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I have looked at the motor shield for some years how, a matter of fact since the 5 pole high efficiency motor came out because with this motor there is little allowance for any movements and any abnormalities within the motor shield or the motor block as a whole could result in the motor either not running at all or it runs with excessive noise.
another observation I've made, the motor block in its early stages including all the analog motors and locos weren't always precise and more care would have taken place when the 5 pole motor was introduced and who knows they may have re machined them.

(snip)

regards.,

John


Hi John, all

I'm really surprised 'someone' has not come up with a direct 100% replacement part for the standard Märklin Motor Housing but made of more exacting materials & tolerances.

A lot of users might not even notice the reduced performance of a mis-aligned brush holder, but for those who do notice, or want to improve performance surely a direct substitute part which requires absolutely no modifications, (no drilling or milling etc) would have a ready market?

Just my two cents-worth.

Steve

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline river6109  
#74 Posted : 16 February 2014 05:28:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Steve,

very good point, I'll may look into it but it has to be spot on and precisely otherwise you could have return claims, the other problem could arise as it happened to me regardless how accurate the motor shield conversion is the whole motor block is out of whack and again most modellers wouldn't know about it and may claim your work isn't up to scratch.
I would say the labour and parts would be around the A$ 10.00 mark not including the motor shield itself and buying it as a retail item price may prevent you from going into production because some one who has an account with Märklin could easily copy the idea and undercut the price and you're left with hundreds of motor shield which will be obsolete

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Online franciscohg  
#75 Posted : 05 March 2014 17:47:45(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
uhhhhhhh, ball bearings are here.......in the afternoon i will try not to spoil my first engine.....we will see.....Unsure
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Online franciscohg  
#76 Posted : 05 March 2014 23:57:10(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
And now, it is ready, i have used two T18 for testing purposes. i have done the drilling by hand at end. One of the things that takes my attention in the firts place was how freely the rotor spins with the ball bearings, meaning to me much less resistance and perhaps less power comsuption. Checked with the information in the CS2 and it seems to be a little less indeed.
I have made a little video showing both engines running



I am happy with the inmediate results, and if you think that the loco will never be opened again for oiling, it is better

Edited by user 06 March 2014 20:38:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Online franciscohg  
#77 Posted : 06 March 2014 00:12:20(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
ohoh, why i cannot insert a video now??????
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline 3rail4life  
#78 Posted : 06 March 2014 02:20:40(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Northern California
Nice work FranciscoThumpUpThumpUp, I have been wanting to try this as well. I can't believe how much noisier the unmodified model is...
Offline Brakeman  
#79 Posted : 06 March 2014 03:55:08(UTC)
Brakeman

United States   
Joined: 14/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 293
Location: Southern California
Thanks Francisco, seeing is believing!
Offline Janne75  
#80 Posted : 06 March 2014 12:27:47(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,572
Location: Finland
Hi Francisco,

The running is much more silent when there are these ball bearings in DCM motor vs. without them. I have a long list of locomotives waiting for this improvement, when I have time to do it. I have to first decide which ball bearings I should use. I think I will use the cheaper "normal" versions and not ceramic bearings. Was it difficult to get it done for the motor shield? Did you "drill" the final size by hand = rotating only by your hand without any electric drilling machine?

Congratulations for the great succesfully work! ThumpUp

Cheers,
Janne

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline biedmatt  
#81 Posted : 06 March 2014 13:31:14(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
It was all very easy to do. I've needed an arbor press for some time, this project finally pushed me over the edge. All told I had around 25 lokos to do. As Francisco stated, now you do not need to open them up for lube. A big plus on some that can be aggravating to open up. I put a dab of paint on the bottom of these lokos so I know not to open them in the future.

The bearings were a tight fit in the motor shield, but were loose in some loko frames. For those I cleaned the hole with a Q-tip dipped in rubbing alcohol to clean the surface. I put a small amount of CA glue on an old worn out small screwdriver and ran that in a circle inside the hole, distributing the glue. Then I seated the bearing with the press.

Looks like I can no longer embed a connection to my pictures at Photobucket. EDIT: Yep, they are gone from post #34. So If you wish to see the arbor press, click the links below.

http://i887.photobucket....2800x600_zpsf1118dac.jpg

http://i887.photobucket....1800x600_zps8a1667fe.jpg

https://www.micromark.co...andpunch-press,9309.html

Interesting, the photos in post 34 are still there on my iPad with Safari, but not my PC using Chrome.

Edited by user 06 March 2014 18:12:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Online franciscohg  
#82 Posted : 06 March 2014 17:18:01(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Hello, i didnt wanted to say it was very easy, you can summon some bad demons, but it was.....
Today's victim, my 3102, done it just before lunch

UserPostedImage

i will document only the brush plate part, to drill the hole, i secure it again in the loco, without the rotor of course

UserPostedImage

I wanted to use my Dremel and the drilling stand, but had no time yet to modify the drills, so i bought these

UserPostedImage

to use with this tool, good torque, but very slow rpm's

UserPostedImage

the result is

UserPostedImage

To fit the ball bearing, i use an old DCM rotor

UserPostedImage

Ball bearing in place

UserPostedImage

Securing the carbon holders before the final re-assembly

UserPostedImage

And the final result

UserPostedImage

Loco working silent and with no troubles at all
At all, a 10-15 min job, think it took me longer to write this post....BigGrin
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Hackcell  
#83 Posted : 06 March 2014 17:50:30(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 520
cool!!
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline biedmatt  
#84 Posted : 06 March 2014 17:54:56(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post

At all, a 10-15 min job, think it took me longer to write this post....BigGrin


That was about what it took me too. I stopped drilling the motor shield in steps and just went straight to the 4mm bit. The jig I used (see post 34) made the drilling procedure very accurate and I found I had a tighter fit pressing the bearings in by not going through several steps to drill the shield.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Online franciscohg  
#85 Posted : 06 March 2014 18:06:35(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
hello Matt, yes your previous post made me wants to use a drilling stand, and if you center the plate well it is perfectly reasonable to do the drilling in just one step.
Since i didnt make the modifications to make the drills fits in the Dremel, i wanted to give a chance of doing it by hand. I have done it step by step and the results are fine so far. Since that method allows me to work with the brush plate in the loco and not have to do any unsolder/solder work, i think i will continue this way.
The bearings fits very secure in the brush plate, the plastic is very elastic and you can see some twisting on it while doing the drilling, so i thinkf the final hole is a little less than 4 mm wich makes it fit very firmly
Cheers
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Webmaster  
#86 Posted : 06 March 2014 19:00:50(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
Francisco's video comparing with & without.... Smile


Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Paul59  
#87 Posted : 06 March 2014 20:34:10(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: South East
This seems to be catching at the moment BigGrin .

I fitted bearings to my 37132 BR75 this morning. It was a pretty straightforward job although I had to be accurate when soldering the leads and chokes back onto the motor shield afterwards as the body is a very snug fit!

I used a small Mill to drill the motor shield as it enabled the shield to be positioned precisely in line with the drills and is capable of a nice low 100 rpm so there is no fear of melting the plastic.
It all went nicely. Obviously it's not worth getting a mill just for this but I already had it for other jobs and it came in very handy.

UserPostedImage

I had to take the motor apart anyway to clean up the commutator (I think I had over oiled it Blushing ) so this seemed like a good one to do the modification on since it was apart anyway.

Question - does anyone put any oil on these bearings or just rely on what is put in when they are manufactured? Mine are shielded so I assume they are greased during manufacture.

Paul
Marklin HO using M track. ECOS 50200 software updated to version 3.7.0
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Online franciscohg  
#88 Posted : 06 March 2014 20:43:10(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
And THAT is a nice tool!!!!!Drool
I had the same thoughts of oiling the bearins, but since mine are shielded too, i think we have to trust on the manofacturing process....
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Online franciscohg  
#89 Posted : 06 March 2014 20:48:17(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Are you reading Marklin-users, you Marklin-makers???????
you could make everyone happy with less than 0.8 USD per loco......
or perhaps not that happy, you would take all the fun of doing it from us.....BigGrin
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Webmaster  
#90 Posted : 06 March 2014 20:52:13(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,803
I have a number of suitable bearings... Maybe I should set up a marklin-users.net donation bearing kit sale in the "I want to sell"? Wink
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline jvuye  
#91 Posted : 06 March 2014 21:20:37(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,622
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
This seems to be catching at the moment BigGrin .

I fitted bearings to my 37132 BR75 this morning. It was a pretty straightforward job although I had to be accurate when soldering the leads and chokes back onto the motor shield afterwards as the body is a very snug fit!

I used a small Mill to drill the motor shield as it enabled the shield to be positioned precisely in line with the drills and is capable of a nice low 100 rpm so there is no fear of melting the plastic.
It all went nicely. Obviously it's not worth getting a mill just for this but I already had it for other jobs and it came in very handy.

....

I had to take the motor apart anyway to clean up the commutator (I think I had over oiled it Blushing ) so this seemed like a good one to do the modification on since it was apart anyway.

Question - does anyone put any oil on these bearings or just rely on what is put in when they are manufactured? Mine are shielded so I assume they are greased during manufacture.

Paul


First of all thank you John for bringing this up...you finally got me to move and install the ball bearings I have purchased some times ago

While you all were posting on this today, I was doing exactly the same thing!

And very true , with a milling machine you achieve higher precision and since you can control the spindle speed accurately, so you can drill very slowly, as not to melt the plastic of the brush plate.

However there is a small complication in aligning the spindle accurately , while the brush plate is mounted in a small vise on the milling machine table.

I use a simple technique:
I mount a 2 mm calibrated rod in the spindle, which has been fitted with a sensitive drill attachment, then poistion the brush plate right under and carefully adjust the X and Y axles, all the while trying to slide the rod in the hole
Why the sensitive drill attachment? ( see here http://sherline.com/1012inst.pdf )
Because using the vertical advance of the milling column you loose any sensitivity and you may **force** the rod in, even though it may not yet be perfectly aligned.

*Once that's done, as John recommended earlier, I use progressively larger drills ( in 0.5 mm increments, until the final one, which for a 4mm outside diam bearing, would be 3.9 mm.

That is just perfect to press-fit the bearing in the plastic :first of all, the drilled diam is always a little larger than the drill bit you use (always a little "off-round" both from the drill and the chuck!) and the smaller hole just holds the bearing in place without any further manipulation.

As I will now try the same procedure on a lok originally fitted with a LFCM (which requires a 5mm outside diam bearing on the pinion side) I will take pictures to clarify the whole procedure
Stay tuned for pics soon
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Online franciscohg  
#92 Posted : 06 March 2014 21:35:11(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
last test while upgrading a E60
At 50% throttle forward, readings on the CS2 are around 0.17 A, after upgrading they dropped to 0.11 A
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Paul59  
#93 Posted : 06 March 2014 21:40:12(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: South East
Jacques, I like the look of that Sensitive Drilling Attachment and can see how it would make small jobs much more accurate as it would restore the feeling so you can get the motor shield positioned by eye and feel rather than just by eye.
Think I'll look into one of those.


I'm very interested in seeing how your modification of the LFCM goes. Often these older motors are the ones in particular need of refurbishing. Also the brushes will put 'end thrust' onto the armature which the ball races should be particularly good at resisting (in theory at least).

Paul
Marklin HO using M track. ECOS 50200 software updated to version 3.7.0
Offline jvuye  
#94 Posted : 06 March 2014 21:54:29(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,622
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
Jacques, I like the look of that Sensitive Drilling Attachment and can see how it would make small jobs much more accurate as it would restore the feeling so you can get the motor shield positioned by eye and feel rather than just by eye.
Think I'll look into one of those.


I'm very interested in seeing how your modification of the LFCM goes. Often these older motors are the ones in particular need of refurbishing. Also the brushes will put 'end thrust' onto the armature which the ball races should be particularly good at resisting (in theory at least).

Paul


Just to be clear, I plan to fit the bearings on an already modified LFCM motor...with a 5 pole motor...and a drum collector!Wink
I agree, the pressure of the brushes could be a problem with the original configuration, but I think the kind of pressure exerted by the brushes is small enough that the bearing could probably take it.
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Online franciscohg  
#95 Posted : 06 March 2014 22:16:17(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Well, the drilling in the loco body for those older motors will no doubt require advanced tools.
As for the process for motors with the original brush plate i am not sure if drilling a 5 mm hole will left enough plate to securely fit the bearing, two first pictures shows different plates of SFCM, the third is a LFCM

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline biedmatt  
#96 Posted : 06 March 2014 22:24:19(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I'm thinking about those flat comm motors too. Mine have all been converted to HEPs with drum comms, so the motor shield is no problem. But drilling the loko frame will be difficult. Supporting the odd shapes square with the drill press is where I see the problem. Once that is sorted, drilling it should be easy. I'm still studying the situation.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Online franciscohg  
#97 Posted : 06 March 2014 22:33:41(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,128
Location: Patagonia
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
I have a number of suitable bearings... Maybe I should set up a marklin-users.net donation bearing kit sale in the "I want to sell"? Wink


At that upgrading rate i will be out of bearings very soon......
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline jvuye  
#98 Posted : 06 March 2014 22:58:32(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,622
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I'm thinking about those flat comm motors too. Mine have all been converted to HEPs with drum comms, so the motor shield is no problem. But drilling the loko frame will be difficult. Supporting the odd shapes square with the drill press is where I see the problem. Once that is sorted, drilling it should be easy. I'm still studying the situation.


Well, that's the whole point, you're so right!
Each lok is a bit different, requiring a different approach.

One thing one realizes when he starts using a milling machine: mounting the piece on the table and indexing ( = set it "square", and at the right spot) properly is in my experience up to 80 % of the time.

But it is all a matter of practice and also sharing ideas with other hobbyists...

Next installment will be forthcoming (when I figure it out BigGrin Blink )...stay tuned!

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#99 Posted : 07 March 2014 00:46:57(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
This seems to be catching at the moment BigGrin .
.

Paul


The word in this day and age is "Trending" Wink

Great thread guys, I was going to send a couple of my motor blocks for my E 101's that I use on the modules pulling a DB IC consist, up to Woolfgang Leitenberger in SF, (Dr Eisenbahn's replacement) when he sadly passed a few years ago.

"15 mins work" Huh I might have to buy some gear and have a go myself Scared

I need to source the bearings first I guess, and maybe a few spare motor shields RollEyes
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline river6109  
#100 Posted : 08 March 2014 10:10:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,410
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
converting older motors e.g. LFCM, SFCM are very indeed harder to do. you need a 5mm outer diameter ball bearing and not 6mm, secondly your chance of keeping the centre hole in contact or as a guide could also diminish and if you can save enough of the old motor shield I would suggest to use the material they use in the motor industry its like plastercine (putty), comes in a stick and you can form it by kneading the required volume you can apply it with your finger around the ball bearing making sure you don't put any of this stuff near the inner diameter. it will harden in a day and its solid as steel. you should have time to align the ball bearing correctly before it sets. trail and error.

http://www.ebay.com.au/i...&viphx=1&lpid=94

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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