Armando: Why can't you accept that Marklin is committed to serving it's customer base who are forced by space constraints to using R1 curves in their layouts? Constantly complaining about it doesn't really add anything to the issue. I agree that the wiring showing between the coaches is grotesque, and I wish they had run the connections through a coupling box as they did in the VT08. I can accept the coach separation on curves and the moving skirts since that allows me to participate in the hobby. If Marklin would product this model limited to R9 curves, they would probably sell a total of 10 units worldwide. No one is forcing you to buy it or any other Marklin product. If you have room for wide sweeping curves, that is great. 99% of us don't.

Hi Guus,

Yes, you are right: too bad for us modellers. Maybe I should look around for another brand (Roco?) in order to meet my minimum standards. I am already buying their 303mm coaches, which are true to scale in lenght and wonderful to look at. I wasn't aware that you had already posted the reference; it is so shocking that I would have reacted to it earlier.
I will be very carefull in the future: I will not pre-order anything from the New Items flyers anymore until I have seen the tangible thing. That will spare me from wasting my money on grotesque monsters like this Gottardo.
Armando

My 'selective compression' is 2 x 1:100 coaches [:0] at the station. If I used 3 I might overshoot the bahnsteig altogether . One man's station is another man's haltpunkt .

I do still agree with Armando on the Gottardo M*[B)] .

Would it not have made more sense to put a slider contact on each car rather than the connector/cable assembly, or am I missing the reason for the connector/cable? (Since this is still 3-rail)

Thanks in advance,

Jim (Puzzled)

Hi Michael,

The Swiss HO community seems to have high expectations of the soon to be released Rail Top version of the Gottardo.

The old Lima model with its six car configuration could also be an option,provided you could obtain one.

Kind regards
Guus

To be honest, to me it does look rather good on a straight piece of track.But......,well I think I've said enough on the Gottardo.

Here's a picture of the 39540 shown on the Modellbahntreff in Göppingen.




This way it's not so bad at all!

A larger image can be found here:

http://img440.imageshack...g440/9766/img2753pq9.jpg

Guus

May I return the question?
If you can afford such a train set, would you build a layout with R1 curves?
I don't think so.

I can afford it and yes, I do have R1 curves on my layout. That is a very arrogant statement.

LOTS of very big collectors makes their locos circulate on tiny "test" layouts.

On the opposite hand there is myself; I have no rolling stuff worth shouting about, but a huge layout with minimum R9 on the visible main track...

So you can´t generalize on that!

Hi everbody,

I have registered today. Just some brief information about myself. I have been playing and collecting Märklin since 1959.

I am also very disappointed about the new Swiss TEE trainset. It is hard to believe that Märklin has done such a bad job on such a modell. Unfortunately I haven't seen a real modell by now. The pictures taken in a R1 radius is of course a reason to get angry. I am pretty sure that I won't order anything again without having seen the final product.
It had happened before with the HWZ. After modells like the 218 and E50 I did not expect such a poor construction.
I do not have R1 on my layout, so there is still some hope to enjoy the Rae TEE a little.

It is actually possible that I could afford the set (SWMBO has some control yet) and I run R0 (Industrial rad) as my main due to lack of space - short cars, short loks no problem - and yes I certainly could run this set, albeit slowly , but my other stock does not have cables, so I might end up unplugging everything [:0] ! Horrors! What would happen then?!

Deep cleansing breaths...

Peace to all,

Jim

Here's some links to pictures of how they did things in N-scale on an N700 shinkansen. Both Kato and Tomix make this model.

Kato: http://jnr9.net/img/071116a/2.htm . As you can see, they have simulated full aerodynamic diaphragms. Regardless of radius, there won't be a gap in between cars. On top of that, this particular model also has tilting functionality. Don't mind the details, it's a prototype, not the final model ;)

Tomix: http://jnr9.net/img/071116a/4.htm and http://jnr9.net/img/071116a/3.htm . In the first picture (the box shot), on the left of the box, the middle picture, that's a close up of the couplers and diaphragm simulation. Not as good looking as Kato's version, and there is a chance to get gaps as well. Advantage of the Tomix version is that it has power pickup on ALL wheels of ALL 16 cars, power is fed through the couplers to the engines, which means that it's near impossible for this set to stop anywhere due to dirty tracks =)


Anyway, slightly off topic, but it shows that it's possible to do much better yet still keep all the functionality. For R1 (or even R0) this wouldn't work of course, but they should still be able to do better than what they have on the Gottardo.

Yes, that is something, Martin. I had this model on order and have canceled it. I can live with the shortened coaches, the moving skirts and the wide separation on curves. The thing that turned me off was the way they coupled the coaches.

On the Gottardo , they have done nothing . They didn't even try to hide couplers & cables . It's empty .


I guess the diaphragmes of the kato train showed above probably don't work on tight curves ( similar to R1 or R2 )- From an esthetic point of view I don't find them so nice neither so prototypical. It is N scale . Items in HO scale needs to be more detailed than N scale .

IMHO , "Nothing" is sometimes better than "something ugly"

I'm wondering if it is not the typical Marklin style .They have been doing things like that , already . It reminds me the beautiful E 103 ....with a nice screw on the roof ( not prototypical at all )! A warning , a kind of humorous wink saying " THIS OBJECT IS NOT A REAL LOCOMOTIVE " . ( " just play - don't go nuts ")

Well, I guess if you don't like it, don't buy it. If you do like it, buy it.

My personal opinion- Even though I don't like the general look of the model (not really a big fan of the TEE models, the Flying Hamburger, etc.), meaning it wouldn't be on my list to buy anyway, after seeing the pictures... I must agree with Ron- the exposed electrical coupling connection is not up to the standards of the pricing point for this model. I could live with the boggie skirts- I find these to be an acceptable compromise. In conclusion, this all means I definitely wouldn't consider it, unless it was ridiculously cheap

I do appreciate being made aware of the situation - I think that is one of the great things about this forum. We are all so passionate about Marklin in one way or another so when something doesn't live up to someone's standards, they express their discontent. I find that to be fair. Nonetheless, discussions of what one can afford to do or not to do have no place here in my opinion.

And, if I ever get a layout up and running, it is highly probable that it will include R1 curves as I have no decent amount of square footage to build a "prototypical" layout. I have no real space to use, and the space I could conceivably use would be maximized to operate more than one or two trains (if possible). Bring on the small radius curves! Woohoo!

Right, Ron - with so much of money involved let's stay on the safe side. Seeing is believing ... [^]

Although there're clowns who wanna make us believe we could discuss <u>only items we do already own</u>
Reminds me of that old joke. "Just sign here. Ya can read it later ..." [xx(]

Ahhh- I see how that would add yet another facet of distaste for someone. Certainly there must be some recourse if one is not happy with the model upon receipt? If you were to turn it down upon delivery inspection, are you able to get a full refund, or would Marklin retain any deposit? I would certainly hope you could get a full refund if not completely satisfied...

I definitely understand the general decline in Marklin's approval rating amongst many forum members. The company is changing- for better or worse. I genuinely hope they take a turn for the collective "better", whatever that may be to each of us.

For me, I'm not too ingrained into the hobby at this stage to worry about a lot of the recent issues. Perhaps that will change as time marches on and I gain more interest. Right now, I am content with searching for stock that appeals to me. If something I like happens to be new, then I'll get it. Since I was "out of the hobby" for so long, I am still playing catch-up with trying to get models from 10-20 years ago!!!! In probably 10 years from now, I will searching for some nice, inexpensive 2005-2008 models!!!!

No matter what, I hope everyone finds their comfort level, be it with Marklin, without Marklin, or with Marklin and &lt;insert your favorite manufacturer here&gt;.

Ron- off topic- let me know if you're in Warminster in the next couple of weeks- we should grab lunch.

Jim

Reading through this thread I came to the conclusion that Ron has expressed more or less my personal point of view.
I agree that Gottardo has been a disappointment (I was lucky enough not to preorder it, which is most probably what I am going to do also with the 2008 Insider which is another TEE railcar set! what a big surprise!!!) but I do not agree that all models should be made according to exact scale no matter of practicability.
I too have a R1-R2-R3 layout and it's enough disappointment for me that I can not run a Big Boy properly. Please Maerklin do not make it harder!

Martin: Pictures of the two variants of the VT10 were posted by Symeon in another thread, https://www.marklin-user...ault.aspx?g=posts&t=8548

I can't understand why Marklin would choose something like that for the Insider model.

HI Ron,
I know about some pictures of the VT 10. For our Greek friends they might one day produce a V200 which were sold to them after being withdrawn in Germany. That should not be a problem, just a new painting. See what they did with all the NOHABs. Even a MAV version available.

After reviewing the pictures I went home and ran my VT08 around a few R1 curves and can honestly confirm that for me the only thing about the RAe I can't accept is the exposed wiring. My VT08 looks every bit as odd going around sharp curves as the RAe, but without the exposed innards. Why they did this I can't understand. As to R1, I have more space for my layout than most of you, but even so there are places where R1 curves are required to make it work. I try to avoid them, particularly in visible areas, but can't always do so.

I must apologize..while I did include "smilies" and "shockies" [:0] in my post, I was by no means saying that we should not be angry (regardless of our "radial" status), nor lowering my feeling that M* made a huge mistake! For this kind of money, we all deserve much better - which I think is the point being made. I am truly sorry if I gave the impression of a cavalier attitude and ask forgiveness [:I] .

Peace to all,

Jim

Hi Jim! I didn't refer to your answer (and to none else!)... I just wanted to show my thought.

You're right, we all feel disappointed by this object!

Peace to you (and all) too, and have fun with your trains whatever they are short, long, on the longest back straight or in the R0 curve...
Pietro

No one here has the room to build prototypical curves anyway, even R9 doesn't come close. Heck, even Miniatur-Wunderland doesn't have prototypical curves =)

One thing I don't like with my Japanese N-scale, is the fact that I need to be careful with what I buy. Many passenger sets and especially the Shinkansen will NOT go through curves with a smaller radius than around 300mm (depends on the brand as well.) Not a problem really, 300mm is still doable, even on modules. However, some Japanese loco's have some rather strange features, such as having 3 bogies with 2 axles each, or being semi-articulated. Some of those loco's also need a minimum radius. On the other hand, there's also loco's and trams that will go through a 103mm radius curve (I'm not kidding, I have some of those curves, they look ridiculous, but then again, they fit perfectly fine for trams ;))

Anyway, with Marklin, that problem doesn't exist. I can buy whatever loco or car I want, and I'll know 100% certain that it'll go through any curve I can throw at it. Just look at the Big Boy, or a Gtl 2 x 4/4. Compared to the prototype, they look like silly toys going through R1 curves, but they do go through them. And, like Ron said, for the majority of Marklinists, this is why they went for Marklin.

For those with a lot of space, it's easy enough to say Marklin should limit the minimum radius, but then there'd be many many more angry people then there are now.

That said, I still think they could've at least covered or even painted that circuit board, whoever okay'ed that idea must've been on drugs that day ;)

Hi all,

While I did not order this Set (no Customer Orders)lets step back and relax.

1.) None of the users here have seen the Set as it is not delivered to anyone I know.

2.) Let's see where these Pictures originated (the ones showing all the wiring etc)

3.) Let's not all run out and cancel your Orders at your Dealer (after all these are the Items a Dealer can make a living at).

4.) If Marklin does make such a terrible looking set then I agree it should be send back and reworked.

5.) Marklin knows how to make good Trains (see #37605 and #37606).

6.) Just look at other MFG. and see what some of them produce (not all is up to expected Standards or much more expensive then Marklin).

Just my 2 Cents (Canadian-eh)worth.

Martin

Märklin was the first model train manufacturer that I knew about when I started playing with trains when I was 9 years old. I continued to purchase Märklin models for many reason, one of them being the fact that I like metal-made locomotives. I have been very pleased with some top quality models such as the Big Boy, the VT11, The ALCO PA and the Pennsy, among many others. My great disappointment arises from the fact that Märklin, unlike other brands like Roco, seem to be catering more and more to the toy train "player" than to the serious modeler. Roco has different lines, like for example, the (amputated) 1:100 scale coaches, but also the correct scale 1:87 coaches that are a feast for the eye and look superb behind an Era III or IV locomotive. What to say about the cog-wheels that can still be seen on the bogies of many Märklin steam, electric (like the E-103, yes, how about the screws on the roof?) and diesel locomotives (such as the NOHABS). Many locomotives still don't come with interior cabin details, which are standard now with other brands.

Happily, we have seen "retoolings" of many models, and I hope that this trend continues, despite the new management.

Personally, I feel that I have been ripped off twice by Märklin: the Henschel-Wegmann was a very nasty surprise and now the Gottardo will be the next. Luckily, the sharpests curves that I have are R4 (The Pennsy looks grotesque even over R5!), and I hope that the ugly couplers and inexisting diafragms on the Gottardo will not show too much.

I don't quite agree with you that this team should only deal with those who praise Märklin no matter what, and close their eyes at Märklin's failures or misreprestations. I firmly believe that these both models (or shall I say "toys"?) represent cases of misrepresentation. I think that this should be a support team where everything that deals with the brand should be discussed, praised, critisized, disected, etc.


I have learned a lesson the hard way. But now, I will wait like many other, wiser, modelers on this forum are doing, before I place an order on any new item in 2008.