 Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Hi all, I have recently acquired the Loreley (Lorelei?) F-Zug passenger cars issued in H0 in the late 90s - Märklin 43209 and 43219.   (Some nice photos of the prototype here: http://www.welt-der-mode...zug-loreley-express.html) I'm interested in extending the train with other matching (ish) cars from Märklin or Trix. There is an old thread here https://www.marklin-user...senger-train-informationwhere Macfire posts an extremely useful spreadsheet of relevant Märklin and Trix part numbers (reproduced below), but that was 13 years ago already. Also this post on stummiforum has useful info on baggage cars. My question: does anyone have an update or info on any models that have been released after 2008? In particular any skirted cars from Märklin or Trix that have the "DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN" labelling rather than "DB", and am also curious about locos - Br01, BR03 & V200 being a start point. Edited by user 04 July 2021 00:46:09(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified |
- Herman |
 6 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC) Posts: 4,431 Location: Attiki Athens Greece
|
I am running this combo with trix 23337 baggage car.
|
4 users liked this useful post by foumaro
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,935 Location: Auckland,
|
Fleischmann also do a very nice baggage car that matches these coaches.
|
1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: foumaro  I am running this combo with trix 23337 baggage car. Yes I see a few people are doing that, and you'll see Trix 23337 in Macfire's list above - it was released in 2005 - and I'm looking for one of those. The reason for the post is that I'm wondering if anything new has been released after 2008 that might be included in a Loreley consist? I do love the destination boards, but I can make my own and whack them on a Rheingold car, for example. I read somewhere that one reason for choosing the name Loreley was to have a non-German sounding name to appeal to British passengers bound for Switzerland, which makes the "ß" in "Expreß" stand out for me on the destination board...  |
- Herman |
4 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Fleischmann also do a very nice baggage car that matches these coaches. I think you mean Fleischmann 563004. My question is for any relevant Marklin and Trix models released after 2008. Personally I like to keep a consist to be from the same manufacturer, because this avoids operational problems, coupler changes and changes in appearance. Also, the Trix baggage car is skirted whereas the Fleischmann one is not. I don't know if a skirted baggage car is fantasy, but it does look nice. - Herman |
- Herman |
1 user liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,935 Location: Auckland,
|
Originally Posted by: hvc Originally Posted by: mvd71 Fleischmann also do a very nice baggage car that matches these coaches. I think you mean Fleischmann 563004. My question is for any relevant Marklin and Trix models released after 2008. Personally I like to keep a consist to be from the same manufacturer, because this avoids operational problems, coupler changes and changes in appearance. Also, the Trix baggage car is skirted whereas the Fleischmann one is not. I don't know if a skirted baggage car is fantasy, but it does look nice. - Herman Yes, or the 5843K works too. But if having the skirting is a must then you need the trix model.
|
3 users liked this useful post by mvd71
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
OK - so far no update from anyone - seems like there haven't been any suitable cars issued by Märklin or Trix after 2008? Please chip in if you know different! Back on the subject of destination boards...  above photo is a crop from https://www.flickr.com/p...s/barkingbill/3323181738 |
- Herman |
3 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,512 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: hvc OK - so far no update from anyone - seems like there haven't been any suitable cars issued by Märklin or Trix after 2008? Please chip in if you know different! Back on the subject of destination boards... above photo is a crop from https://www.flickr.com/p...s/barkingbill/3323181738 Do the tabs at the top indicate the same board in different languages?
|
1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: hvc OK - so far no update from anyone - seems like there haven't been any suitable cars issued by Märklin or Trix after 2008? Please chip in if you know different! Back on the subject of destination boards... above photo is a crop from https://www.flickr.com/p...s/barkingbill/3323181738 Do the tabs at the top indicate the same board in different languages? I don't know, but I think they are different routes/directions. My read is that there are two tabs on the sign at the front which are "H" and "C", so that's the board for Hoek van Holland to Chiasso. Or maybe only the right tab is part of the front board, which makes it Chiasso ? I'm not sure. |
- Herman |
1 user liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
|
- Herman |
6 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Found a lot of references to the NS Class 1100s hauling express trains from Hoek v Holland in the 50s - I'm wondering where the change of loco would have been...  |
- Herman |
6 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,245 Location: Montreal, QC
|
|
4 users liked this useful post by mike c
|
|
|
|
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,776 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
|
Originally Posted by: hvc Originally Posted by: mvd71 Fleischmann also do a very nice baggage car that matches these coaches. I think you mean Fleischmann 563004. My question is for any relevant Marklin and Trix models released after 2008. Personally I like to keep a consist to be from the same manufacturer, because this avoids operational problems, coupler changes and changes in appearance. Also, the Trix baggage car is skirted whereas the Fleischmann one is not. I don't know if a skirted baggage car is fantasy, but it does look nice. - Herman Congratulations with your purchases, this is the period I also model just too bad you're not in Brisbane:) The Trix 23337 is a fantasy as the Rheingold/Lorely used only rebuilt saloon baggage wagons. The correct baggage car can be found by Lilliput item 383911 with the correct tapered ends. I run the Lilliput with the other Trix wagons for my 50's Rheingold and have no operational issues. Really it's up to you though of course and how correct you want to be. Part of the problem now is sourcing these items. The stummi forum of course is the place to go for questions on the prototype, read about the baggage car here: https://www.stummiforum....f-r-Loreley-Express.htmlHere is a picture of the Rheingold with skirted passenger wagons showing the baggage car with the tapered ends like the Fleischmann.  As for locomotives, I can only know for Rheingold for this period but Lorely would have been much the same. BR 03, BR 03.10, BR 01, BR 41 were all used. You can see in the link you provided the Lorely being pulled by BR01.10 which is only available from Marklin as item 37104 Bellingrodt special edition. I personally run my Rheingold with the Roco BR 03.10 in black, item 69284. There is also the steel blue version 69281 (which was just re-released I think) though not sure if it pulled the Rheingold/Lorely, rather the 'Gluckauf' and double decker prototypes. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
6 users liked this useful post by applor
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: applor
Congratulations with your purchases, this is the period I also model just too bad you're not in Brisbane:)
Thanks for the useful post! Availbility is indeed the problem, which is why I was looking for info on any later models, but it looks like hunting it is... In the pre-covid world I visited Brisbane sometimes - if we get back to something normal and I'm there again I'll drop you a line... - Herman |
- Herman |
2 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: mike c Hi Mike, I'm curious - I've never really thought about how the handovers would work, and it might be something interesting to model. I found the film below on the Rheingold services from HvH. The program is quite old, and has dreadful music but some nice images. According to the voiceover in the video, the NS 1100/1200/1300 would haul the train as far as Arnhem prior to 1966, when the line from Arnhem from Emmerich was electrified. In the video they show a V200 hooking up to the train in Arnhem. It also raised the question for me of what happened after electrification when the Dutch electric locos crossed the border - I think the The Netherlands has 1,500 V DC has and Germany has 15 kV AC - do they run the Dutch system to (say) Emmerich, and how do they change to a German electric loc? |
- Herman |
4 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
|
|
3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
|
|
4 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,267 Location: Hobart, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: hvc Hi Mike,
I'm curious - I've never really thought about how the handovers would work, and it might be something interesting to model. I found the film below on the Rheingold services from HvH. The program is quite old, and has dreadful music but some nice images.
According to the voiceover in the video, the NS 1100/1200/1300 would haul the train as far as Arnhem prior to 1966, when the line from Arnhem from Emmerich was electrified. In the video they show a V200 hooking up to the train in Arnhem.
It also raised the question for me of what happened after electrification when the Dutch electric locos crossed the border - I think the The Netherlands has 1,500 V DC has and Germany has 15 kV AC - do they run the Dutch system to (say) Emmerich, and how do they change to a German electric loc? Thanks for the video Herman, I do like the conductor's uniform in the closing moments !  PJ
|
3 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
|
|
|
|
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,267 Location: Hobart, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Not quite what you were looking for: Modern day swap of electric locos at Bad Bentheim for Amsterdam-Berlin traffic. Hello Ak, Thank you for the nice video of the loco changeover. In particular I was interested in the various pantograph manoeuvres of the Netherlands and German locomotives. Regards, Philip
|
3 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Here's an electric lok changeover at Emmerich in 1987 - the DB lok making way for the NS 1100 to complete the train's journey to Amsterdam. Photos from https://www.nicospilt.com/index_Lok1100_2.htmI remain curious about how this is done - as far as I know the Dutch and German loks run on different current type and voltage...   |
- Herman |
3 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
Originally Posted by: hvc
I remain curious about how this is done - as far as I know the Dutch and German loks run on different current type and voltage...
The overhead catenary section in the station can be switched from 1500 V DC (NS) to 15000 V 16 2/3 Hz AC (DB) and vice versa. This requires the loco pantograph manoeuvres mentioned by Philip. |
|
2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
Originally Posted by: hvc It is always a pleasure to visit his site, isn’t it? Wonderful photos, good anecdotes and some refreshed memories, too. |
|
2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Originally Posted by: hvc
I remain curious about how this is done - as far as I know the Dutch and German loks run on different current type and voltage...
The overhead catenary section in the station can be switched from 1500 V DC (NS) to 15000 V 16 2/3 Hz AC (DB) and vice versa. This requires the loco pantograph manoeuvres mentioned by Philip. OK, now I have questions... if the catenary is switched, why do the locs have to temporarily lower their pantos at the platform? My simple-minded way of thinking about it is: - Station switches platform and runaround to DB power
- DB loco enters, unhooks, and leaves platform bound back to the German side
- Station switches platform to NS power
- NS loco enters, hooks up, and leaves platform bound for Dutch side
But that doesn't require any panto maneuvers - there's no power switching while the loco is at the platform - so what is going on? Is it because the other loco is doing something in the switched zone at that time, or some kind of safety procedure? |
- Herman |
2 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
Originally Posted by: hvc My simple-minded way of thinking about it is: - Station switches platform and runaround to DB power
- DB loco enters, unhooks, and leaves platform bound back to the German side
- Station switches platform to NS power
- NS loco enters, hooks up, and leaves platform bound for Dutch side
But that doesn't require any panto maneuvers - there's no power switching while the loco is at the platform ... And that’s exactly what is happening in this video: What puzzled me on Nico Spilt’s site is to see a German diesel switcher remove and shunt the Dutch electric loco in 1977. Maybe, since electrification took place only one year earlier, the procedure wasn’t that sophisticated or Bad Bentheim wasn’t equipped for switching voltages at that time. |
|
2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,512 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek
What puzzled me on Nico Spilt’s site is to see a German diesel switcher remove and shunt the Dutch electric loco in 1977. Maybe, since electrification took place only one year earlier, the procedure wasn’t that sophisticated or Bad Bentheim wasn’t equipped for switching voltages at that time.
Another possibility is that only the station platform catenary could be switched, and there was no siding the loco could drive itself to, so a diesel switcher was used to park it until required for a trip back whence it came.
|
3 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Originally Posted by: hvc My simple-minded way of thinking about it is: - Station switches platform and runaround to DB power
- DB loco enters, unhooks, and leaves platform bound back to the German side
- Station switches platform to NS power
- NS loco enters, hooks up, and leaves platform bound for Dutch side
But that doesn't require any panto maneuvers - there's no power switching while the loco is at the platform ... What puzzled me on Nico Spilt’s site is to see a German diesel switcher remove and shunt the Dutch electric loco in 1977. Maybe, since electrification took place only one year earlier, the procedure wasn’t that sophisticated or Bad Bentheim wasn’t equipped for switching voltages at that time. Maybe doing this just allowed a faster change, because the DB loco didn't have to wait as long? Or maybe the platform track has switchable power, but the runaround track does not?  https://www.nicospilt.com/index_Lok1100_2.htm |
- Herman |
2 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,245 Location: Montreal, QC
|
Originally Posted by: hvc Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Originally Posted by: hvc
I remain curious about how this is done - as far as I know the Dutch and German loks run on different current type and voltage...
The overhead catenary section in the station can be switched from 1500 V DC (NS) to 15000 V 16 2/3 Hz AC (DB) and vice versa. This requires the loco pantograph manoeuvres mentioned by Philip. OK, now I have questions... if the catenary is switched, why do the locs have to temporarily lower their pantos at the platform? My simple-minded way of thinking about it is: - Station switches platform and runaround to DB power
- DB loco enters, unhooks, and leaves platform bound back to the German side
- Station switches platform to NS power
- NS loco enters, hooks up, and leaves platform bound for Dutch side
But that doesn't require any panto maneuvers - there's no power switching while the loco is at the platform - so what is going on? Is it because the other loco is doing something in the switched zone at that time, or some kind of safety procedure? I don't know much about the procedure between NS and DB. I did observe the goings on in Forbach when I travelled from Frankfurt to Paris in 1985 as well as Domodossola each time I passed through, which also involve differing voltage systems. In order to protect the locomotive, the train normally coasts into the switchable section of the station. Once stopped, it is uncoupled and then the locomotive is moved to another track by a shunter, where the power is switched to the appropriate section and the locomotive then moves to the holding area within that railways section of the station. Here is a video of the goings on at Chiasso: (4 Parts) Here is a video of the goings on at Domodossola: This is what happens when you connect to the wrong system: Regards Mike C
|
3 users liked this useful post by mike c
|
|
|
|
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,245 Location: Montreal, QC
|
|
4 users liked this useful post by mike c
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: mike c Thanks Mike - this is very interesting, and (not surprisingly) there are different approaches to the electrical system changeover. Also, where there are areas that can be switched between electrical systems, I'm imagining the whole lot might be switched at once - so say the central platform tracks and runaround track at Venlo would all be DB or NL at a given time, which would explain use of the diesel shunter in the photo above. From http://www.sporenplan.nl/ via the site linked above:  |
- Herman |
3 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
My humble contribution: According to the German Wikipedia entry on the Bad Bentheim railway station practically all catenary sections above the station tracks can be switched individually to facilitate operation. Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnhof_Bad_Bentheim |
|
1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek My humble contribution: According to the German Wikipedia entry on the Bad Bentheim railway station practically all catenary sections above the station tracks can be switched individually to facilitate operation. Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnhof_Bad_Bentheim Interesting - I then continue to find the use of the diesel shunter confusing and interesting. Also both appealing and tricky to model... |
- Herman |
2 users liked this useful post by hvc
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,881 Location: Hybrid Home
|
Originally Posted by: mike c http://bueker.net/trainspotting/stations.php
Awesome website ! |
|
2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
|
|
|
|
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,776 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
|
Just a follow up post on the Trix 23337 as I came across a post which highlighted the specific issue and thought it would be of interest:
(Was there ever really a blue apron van as a model for the Trix 23337? In the online library, this is incorrectly marked as a 37, although it is clearly an apron wagon ...)
Yes and no!
The "105 885 Bln / Köl / Mü" was a "Pw4ü-40", of which only one was actually built and which has never been made in steel blue.
The “105 060 Kar”, on the other hand, was a “SalonMaschPw4ük-37” that was converted by the Deutsche Bundesbahn into “Pw4üe-37/52”, specifically for use in the “Rheingold” F-train!
The only false claim by Trix is that it is a "Pw4ü-37" ...
It is questionable whether the "SalonMaschPw4ük-37" or "Pw4üe-37/52" actually looks like the "Pw4ü-40". |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
1 user liked this useful post by applor
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
