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Offline ozzman  
#1 Posted : 13 June 2008 09:39:45(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
Does anyone know of a good English language reference, either book or online, with details of Era 3 passenger trains? What I'm looking for is information about routes, typical consists, the order in which the passenger cars usually appeared and locos used. http://www.dbtrains.com/en/ is good, but it doesn't have all the info I need.

Failing that, does anyone have any details of the "Lorelei"?
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 13 June 2008 09:54:30(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Try http://www.miba.de/testen/maelorel.htm
It is in German, but you can copy about a paragraph at a time into Google translate.
regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 13 June 2008 10:34:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,775
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Gary, have a look in here:

http://www.worldrailfans...ope/GSuitableStock.shtml

It doesn't contain all the information you're looking for, but might be useful.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ozzman  
#4 Posted : 13 June 2008 15:18:06(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thanks guys. There's some useful info in there....
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 14 June 2008 01:55:15(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Here is some basic translation for the Miba article:
The blue F-train network was the top link in the young Reisezugdienst Bundesbahn. These trains travelled at 100 or 120 km / h, and had much shorter journey times than the former express trains. A famous train representing the F-train in era 3, is the model for Märklins H0-set "Loreley Express". How this model relates to the original, is depicted here by Michael Meinhold.

For fifteen years this train operated under the F train number 163/164 between Basel and Hoek van Holland. The "Loreley Express", next to the "Rheingold", "Rheinpfeil" and the legendary Rhine Arrow, were together the most popular F trains of the 3rd era. As a daily combination of (England) Holland to Switzerland via West Germany, they were very popular, especially with English travellers, for whom partly, the train name was conjured. That is until the advent of the Convair 440. Again and again in England there was confusion between R 9 / 10 "Rhine-arrow" and F 163/164 "Rheingold Express".

The Deutsche Bundesbahn announced from 17.5.1953 the fastest and best quality connection from Hoek to Basel as the F-10/9 "Rheingold Express", and christened the F 164/163 as the "Loreley Express" - a suggestion from the Dutchman, as well as numerous DB proposals from the competition of 1952 "trains looking for a name".

More later.
regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Macfire  
#6 Posted : 14 June 2008 06:16:28(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Hi Gary,
Both M* and Trix have two sets each with both the same running numbers.
M* 43209 and 43219 Extension set.
Trix 21261 & (?) Extension set. (From memory I think this is the Trix number).
Coach types and running numbers are:

Sets:
A4üe 11 634Kar
AB4üwe 14 521Kar
B4üe 17 532Kar
WR4ü(e) 1179 Mitropa

Extension Sets:
AB4üwe 14 511Kar
B4üe 17 537Kar

Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#7 Posted : 14 June 2008 11:13:27(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
More English translation of the Miba article (my additions are in brackets):
Both the "Rheingold Express" and the "Loreley Express" were equipped from the beginning with the blue apron (skirted) cars of the 39 group. On the side walls were the words "DEUTSCHE BUNDESBAHN" in raised silver lettering (aluminium). Until 1955, both Allied Express trains, because of reservations, were equipped with CIWL blue dining cars.

Only from 3.6.1956, was a red DSG dining car able to be used, and simultaneously the F 163/164 became 1st and 2 Class only. The train in the summer timetable 1956 is the basis for the Märklin "Loreley Express" (#43209 MHI in HO). The four cars correspond to running number and car plate, exactly as recorded by the author in MIBA Report "Train (1) - the era 3 passenger trains" documented previously.

The authentic adaptation of a particular express train is undoubtedly difficult in model form. In practice, a cut down version is the norm. The complete train between Basel and Cologne, and from Cologne, was nine and seven cars respectively. If you want to represent the whole "Loreley Express" for the Cologne-Basel section, you will need three more AB and an additional B-car, not to mention the baggage car. There are possibilities here, without taking account of differences in the finish. See the Liliput-apron cars and the new Fleischmann pack. This would be a cheaper solution than buying three other Marklin MHI (Loreley) Sets.

More later.
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#8 Posted : 14 June 2008 11:35:26(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
More from Miba:
It could, however, be not only the "Loreley Express". If you ignore the running numbers and class names lettering, the set of three blue apron (skirted) cars and a red restaurant car could be declared as an 21/22 F "Rheingold". In this composition, the set could stand in also for the "big" Rheingold Express, in 1956 between Munich and Köln. At least till 1959, that train used the blue apron cars, beyond their glory days. The train tinetables for this year showed all Rhine-haul trains as equipped with the new 4-M F-26 cars.

What locomotives suit the "Loreley Express" with its apron cars? The allocation for fast trains in 1955, required 01 Class steam between Basle Bad Bf and Mannheim, to Ludwigshafen 03.10 Class, from Cologne to the border at Kaldenkirchen are the 23 class from Mönchengladbach. In 1958, E10 based in Heidelberger for Basel SBB to Ludwigshafen, V 200 from Hamm P to Cologne and Gladbacher 23 to Venlo, and vice versa in the opposite direction. (not sure if this last paragraph translates correctly)

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 14 June 2008 12:04:29(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Last of the Miba articel translated to English.

Documentary and photo evidence shows the 03.10 class of locomotive hauling this train. The Rivarossi model is still delayed. The Weinerts 03.10 with a new boiler is not wrong, because the Ludwigshafen allocation from 1957/58 shows there were nine new boiler-03.10 stationed there for the "Loreley Express". And then there is the legendary steel-blue 03 1014 from 1950, and the Märklin blue 03 1043 - why not? All in all - how far you need to go to obtain close to an authentic model, depends on personal discretion, and the wallet of each individual. A beautiful train it is truly, this "Loreley Express" from Göppingen.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Macfire  
#10 Posted : 15 June 2008 02:29:05(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Thanks for the info Kimball, makes for interesting reading.

Trix and Marklin have modelled the following Cars:

UserPostedImage

The Trix 23337 Pw4U Baggage Car

UserPostedImage

While designated as a "Rheingold" car I am sure that my copy does not have the destination boards. Note that this is also a "Deutsche Bundesbahn" rather than the Rheingold "DB"
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#11 Posted : 15 June 2008 04:49:37(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,091
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thanks for that Tony.
Of course Gary's original question related to Z gauge, however the topic is interesting in any scale.

The first V200 locomotives came with "Deutsche Bundesbahn" lettering in 1956, just like the cars they hauled. Marklin do this in HO as item #39800.

I believe around 1959, the cars changed to the basic "DB" on the side wall, which is as you say, the way the 43237 and 43238 Marklin sets are presented. I might be corrected on the date.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline ozzman  
#12 Posted : 15 June 2008 09:04:18(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
Once again, thanks a lot, especially to Kimball. M* did make a set of "Lorely" passenger cars in Z (Cat # 87351), but they're out of stock :-( Hopefully I can pick up a set on Fleabay or through the classifieds on a forum such as this.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline Macfire  
#13 Posted : 16 June 2008 02:31:35(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kimballthurlow
<br />Of course Gary's original question related to Z gauge


Oops [:I] [:I]
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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