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Offline cookee_nz  
#1 Posted : 28 March 2020 10:04:29(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
OK, well I cannot for the life of me find any reference to this and the catalogues don't really help.

When did M. change from the older larger plugs and sockets to the smaller style - note I am NOT referring to the current modern connectors. I mean this type shown.

The old ones have a plastic housing that is 15 mm long and somewhat bigger.

The newer smaller ones are 11 mm long on the housing and the metal shaft is slightly shorted also

Even the code does not really help because they changed in 1957 from 490 x to 7xxx but the images in the catalogues show what appears to be both styles for many years right into the late 60's when they become less ambiguous.

I assume there was a specific introduction year for the new style but I've not yet found any reference for it.

P1060561.JPG

Edited by user 03 June 2020 09:39:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Janne75  
#2 Posted : 28 March 2020 17:56:06(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi

I don’t know that answer to your question, but I would like to know this also. I use always older style plugs with my Märklin Super 30 VA transformer (Märklin 6123). Here is a photo:

UserPostedImage

Best regards,
Janne

Edited by user 31 March 2020 18:36:10(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected 280 => 6123

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 30 March 2020 22:19:42(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
So nobody knows?

I should have included this question in my "Seriously Sick" Märklin trivia quiz.

Perhaps we have a new topic - questions no one knows the answer to :-)
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 30 March 2020 22:42:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,712
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I know that all my plugs from my original train set dating back to 1958 were the large type, but all the plugs I've bought since I restarted with Marklin in the mid eighties are the small ones.

Maybe we can look back through old catalogues to see when they changed?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline PMPeter  
#5 Posted : 30 March 2020 23:08:54(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,065
Location: Port Moody, BC
I bought a lot of my old style plugs in 1975-76 and they were all the small ones.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#6 Posted : 31 March 2020 00:32:47(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I know that all my plugs from my original train set dating back to 1958 were the large type, but all the plugs I've bought since I restarted with Marklin in the mid eighties are the small ones.

Maybe we can look back through old catalogues to see when they changed?


Already done that, but not helpful. The images in the catalogues back then were not really photographs rather than good drawings.

There are two places the connectors are shown. The first is in the accessories sections where the plugs and sockets are listed by code.

They are also shown with Turnouts and generally in those images they are depicted as smaller, more in proportion to the newer 11mm style. But this may be nothing more than artistic rendering.

In fact, you can check catalogues back to the mid-50's to find examples of this which is what I did at first but to no avail - hence my post.

So rather than relying on the catalogues, it seems to me the most reliable check would be items with the plugs attached, where the item date is reasonably accurate such as the box date code.

Yes I know this method is not certain hen it comes to dating Loco's or Rolling stock, but on the other hand, it you have for example a boxed set of turnouts or similar item, and you know for certain (because you personally purchased it) that it's how it came, then if the item is dated 1960 and has the newer style 11mm connector, then it can be taken reasonably reliably as being available at least as early as that.

I believe I can say from certainty (from products of my own) that the smaller 11mm connectors were available at least pre-1970.

Personally, I suspect around the late 50's / early 60's to be the change, but may have been a little earlier.

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 31 March 2020 00:39:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,473
An interesting question.

What about the catalogs that had photographs of layouts, perhaps they can be seen plugged into the turnout buttons ? (and sizes estimated from the size of the button panel)
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 31 March 2020 02:27:34(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,360
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Cookee,

Maybe you should look at the Hirschmann connectors range from that time. I know that H W Clarke, who were the Marklin agents in NZ back then imported the identical connectors from Hirschmann as that was a range they had an agency for, were probably cheaper than Marklin, and probably supplied them against the marklin catalogue numbers in NZ. Check to see if any of the coloured bodies have an 'H' on them, if so they are Hirschmann items.

Alan

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Offline cookee_nz  
#9 Posted : 31 March 2020 02:53:27(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
An interesting question.

What about the catalogs that had photographs of layouts, perhaps they can be seen plugged into the turnout buttons ? (and sizes estimated from the size of the button panel)


Hi Dale, great minds think alike. I actually just finished doing that through all my associated literature (I have a lot) and none of the photos show enough detail for this purpose.

However, digging through my assortment, I focused on any accessories that shipped with plugs already fitted. A good place to start was Catenary feeder masts. I have one in a yellow box from 1961 with an 11mm plug. Then I found another in a plain brown box which is 1950's also with the shorter plug. So that's narrowing it down. But I have to be careful to check only items I know for certain are as they were shipped. Plugs would be easily swapped.

If anyone has any turnouts, Signals or other accessories (Turntable?) from the 50's still as originally packed, that might also help.

Of course you might think... "New old-stock from the 50's? - yeah right!" - but you know, these items do exist, and some enthusiasts specifically collect them for that very reason.
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 31 March 2020 04:05:57(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,473
Perhaps a small question fired off to Märklin may eventually get the answer.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 31 March 2020 04:29:00(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Cookee,

Maybe you should look at the Hirschmann connectors range from that time. I know that H W Clarke, who were the Marklin agents in NZ back then imported the identical connectors from Hirschmann as that was a range they had an agency for, were probably cheaper than Marklin, and probably supplied them against the marklin catalogue numbers in NZ. Check to see if any of the coloured bodies have an 'H' on them, if so they are Hirschmann items.

Alan




Lordy Alan, talk about timing!! I had just earlier taken another photo of the connectors, and spotted that little 'H', mental note made "what's that all about?" and in comes your reply - there's always something new to learn huh. ThumpUp

So yes, I have a few marked with the 'H', shown as below. I did not previously know about Hirschmann however any attempt to find a vintage detail or images for 50's / 60's connectors in this style came up blank.

Thanks again.


P1060569.JPG

P1060570.JPG

Circled.....

P1060569.JPG
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 31 March 2020 05:26:58(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,360
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Lordy Alan, talk about timing!!......


I would guess the import licensing regime of the time would have forced this on H W Clarke to maximise the product they could import under each category of licence.

Another thing to note from your pictures is it looks like all the Hirschmann ones do not have the side entry to piggyback an extra connection on.

Edited by moderator 01 April 2020 11:11:36(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include Cookee's entire post, as we don't need to read it twice!

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Offline Br502362  
#13 Posted : 31 March 2020 09:03:03(UTC)
Br502362


Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 618
Location: Finland
Hi,

I think that Märklin changed the connectors same time as they moved from 3600 track to M-track.

All my 3600 series turnouts which my father and uncle bought as new are with the bigger connectors.

If I remember right 3600 and M-tracks were produced simultaneously between 1956-1958.

Cheers
Åke

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Offline cookee_nz  
#14 Posted : 31 March 2020 09:09:50(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi Åke,

Yes I had considered that, around 1956/57 would be quite possible, hopefully some others with year-specific items might narrow this down. ThumpUp

Edited by moderator 01 April 2020 11:12:26(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include Åke's entire post, as we don't need to read it twice!

Cookee
Wellington
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Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 31 March 2020 11:47:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,712
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have a couple of accessories from the 3600 track era which have a different style of connector, with no plastic part at all. They are just a metal plug crimped onto the end of the wire.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Janne75  
#16 Posted : 31 March 2020 18:17:09(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
I had before a lot of Märklin 3600 tracks and all of these which had any connector plugs had those bigger connectors. 3600 tracks were made 1947-1956. First versions from 1947-1952 and second versions from 1952-1956.

I’m just reading my old Koll’s catalogue from 2012 and it has an interesting note in transformer 280 A version 2 (1955-1961). This 280 A second version (6113 with normal plugs) and (6173 with schuko plugs).

I use those bigger connectors with my transformer but it has ”6123” in it’s nameplate. Not 6113 but I think 6123 relates to that 6113 more than 6173. 6123 has also three connecting points like 6113 has.

More info of these old transformers in German:

https://tischbahn.de/ble...0er-jahre-im-ueberblick/

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#17 Posted : 31 March 2020 23:36:55(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I would guess the import licensing regime of the time would have forced this on H W Clarke to maximise the product they could import under each category of licence.

Another thing to note from your pictures is it looks like all the Hirschmann ones do not have the side entry to piggyback an extra connection on.


Hi Alan,

I checked and found that I do have several with the side-entry socket - as shown in this image angled hopefully to make them clear to see. I don't have Brown or Green. Now the OCD in me says I must find some!!! LOL

It begs the question - did/do Märklin gets their own plugs from Hirschmann or do they produce them in-house? - and also Brawa who make a similar (smal) plug, and possibly others. If they sourced them from Hirschmann, you wonder why they didn't stamp an 'M' on in place of the 'H'. Why would you go to the expense of setting up manufacturing for something like that when you can buy in bulk from an established supplier much cheaper - and I'm not talking about China either.

I quite like the large plugs but only when the surroundings suit them. I have a model produced 1956 only that I need to replace the plugs on while rewiring and I want to use what it would have originally shipped with.

Unfortunately it had a mix of plugs when I got it but the prevalence appears to be the larger ones so that's what I will probably go with unless I find compelling evidence otherwise :-)

P1060571.JPG

Edited by moderator 01 April 2020 11:13:38(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include Cookee's multiple nested posts, as we don't need to read them twice!

Cookee
Wellington
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 01 April 2020 01:54:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,360
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post


Hi Alan,

I checked and found that I do have several with the side-entry socket - as shown in this image angled hopefully to make them clear to see. I don't have Brown or Green.

Yes, I see, and they look like they have the 'H' logo.

Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

Now the OCD in me says I must find some!!! LOL


I know that feeling ... Blushing

Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

It begs the question - did/do Märklin gets their own plugs from Hirschmann or do they produce them in-house? - and also Brawa who make a similar (smal) plug, and possibly others. If they sourced them from Hirschmann, you wonder why they didn't stamp an 'M' on in place of the 'H'. Why would you go to the expense of setting up manufacturing for something like that when you can buy in bulk from an established supplier much cheaper - and I'm not talking about China either.


I would guess they bought them in. I would think they would be buying large enough quantities that they could get them without the 'H' logo, but why they didn't put the 'M' logo on is puzzling. Maybe they got some back yard plastic molder to produce the coloured pieces and only got the metal bits from Hirschmann.Confused

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Offline Markus Schild  
#19 Posted : 01 April 2020 09:28:34(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
I think that Märklin changed the connectors same time as they moved from 3600 track to M-track.......


Yes I had considered that, around 1956/57 would be quite possible......


Hi,

I looked through my collection of 1321/1071 and 1322/1072 motors. These all came with cables. I have no motor with large plugs later than 04/56 (date stamp of the leaflet). 1072/1322 Motors with that leaflet come with both types. Motors with 08/57 (1071) leaflet always have small plugs.

Regards

Markus
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Offline ktsolias  
#20 Posted : 01 April 2020 09:59:18(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 503
Location: Athens
Hi

The Märklin plugs are very old indeed


The history from 1930 and on is as follows (I have no facts before 1930)

1. 1930-1938: 13491S, 13491M, 13491K
2. 1939-1949: 493S, 493M, 494 UG
3. 1950-1956: 490S, 490M, 490SQ
4. 1957-2002: 711x, 712x, 713x
5. 2002- : 71400 series

In the early years till 1960 there were as well ready made wires with one M and one F plug each side under various Cat. No

Also there were plugs without plastic cover ready on the wires not available separately, but already fitted on the wires of various accessories.

During the years and specially for the 71xx series (they are available till today) there many variations.

Take in mind the plugs from other manufactures and you will see that we must have too many variations

Regards

Costas





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Offline cookee_nz  
#21 Posted : 01 April 2020 10:21:43(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi Costas,

Thanks for the info. The change at 1956/1957 was mainly a change in Marklin's numbering system. See image from each catalogue below. The actual items themselves were mostly unchanged except for a few which received new markings. The plugs prior to 1950 are not relevant as they would be outside of my search range.

I do note that they dropped the Black connectors after 1956 but introduced the Grey colour.

Cheers

1956 page

1956-(1256)-p37.jpg

1957 page

57-p35.jpg

Page from cross-reference catalogue December 1956

1956 (1256)-p37.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline cookee_nz  
#22 Posted : 01 April 2020 10:45:20(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,530
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
I looked through my collection of 1321/1071 and 1322/1072 motors.....


Thanks for that Markus, those are a very good item to compare from. I have only one motor, but it's from the early 70's so is no help for this exercise.

It helps confirm what I suspect which is that for my model, the large connectors would be correct. Plus of course M. would likely still have plenty of the larger older ones in their workshops as would many of the retailers.

UPDATE - And as Alan has also pointed out in the quiz thread, the Grey plug makes its first appearance in the 1957 catalogue and I've not (yet) seen any large Grey or White plugs so 1957 would appear to be the year of change, even perhaps progressively over the next year or two if they needed to run any old stocks down.

BigGrin

Edited by user 02 April 2020 10:26:16(UTC)  | Reason: Edited to not include Markus' entire post, as we don't need to read it twice!

Cookee
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