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Offline Goofy  
#51 Posted : 11 December 2019 21:34:27(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post


You guys!

You're asserting things you've not even verified yourself!
Have you checked how the real engine looks?
Have you seen it with your own eyes?

I have seen and toured this loco in Erstfeld depot.

And I can tell you've just made (big!) fools of yourselves !!Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh BigGrin BigGrin

Here is a composite of the picture posted by Shannon and an official BBC factory drawing .

Kofferli composite RET.jpg

Get back on your little blue pills before you touch a model train again!LOL


If you take look at prototype real photo you see the locomotive does looks more closer than in the drawing pictures.
The distance between the wheels seems correct but the body in both end seems wrong drawing.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_Fc_2x3/4



OK, now we have here a perfect example of cognitive dissonance! If you've made up your mind, don't you ever be distracted by the facts.
I rest my case


In the youtube by watch the video i can see clear that each of the end of the locomotive are closer than what it shows in drawing picture.
Märklins model are too big distance and should be closer in fact.
I believe Märklin focus too much on the narrow curve track R1 that is the problem and Märklin decides to increase distance the front pivot from the body.
Your composite of the picture by focus on the front pivot seems wrong drawing.


Offline mbarreto  
#52 Posted : 11 December 2019 21:48:49(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 941

Photoshop!
LOL
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline shannon  
#53 Posted : 12 December 2019 03:14:35(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post

The gap of model apparently is quite wide if compared to the pritotype. Mad

...and the gap even gets glaringly wider when the model runs through curves and turnouts. ThumbDown

I wonder why somebody at Märklin got the crazy idea to connect the "suitcases" to the axle mechanism instead of the body shell. On just about every long German steamer the front end with the buffers is also rigid and doesn't jump around like a rubber ball...

https://www.youtube.com/...tVY&feature=emb_logo


You guys!

You're asserting things you've not even verified yourself!
Have you checked how the real engine looks?
Have you seen it with your own eyes?

I have seen and toured this loco in Erstfeld depot.

And I can tell you've just made (big!) fools of yourselves !!Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh BigGrin BigGrin

Here is a composite of the picture posted by Shannon and an official BBC factory drawing .

Kofferli composite RET.jpg

Get back on your little blue pills before you touch a model train again!LOL


This picture of prototype showed the gap.
You can judge which is wider or closer than marklin.

91vdXcezIBL.jpg

Screenshot_2019-12-10-17-15-17-353_com.android.chrome.png
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Offline jvuye  
#54 Posted : 12 December 2019 09:24:03(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
.......
This picture of prototype showed the gap.
You can judge which is wider or closer than marklin.

91vdXcezIBL.jpg
...


As I said, don't get disturbed by the facts!! Laugh
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Goofy  
#55 Posted : 12 December 2019 10:37:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
.......
This picture of prototype showed the gap.
You can judge which is wider or closer than marklin.

91vdXcezIBL.jpg
...


As I said, don't get disturbed by the facts!! Laugh


The gap in prototype are smaller.
To present in HO scale the gap will be much smaller than Märklin.
In Märklin case they present larger scale in gap because of the narrow curve track R1, which are fantasy too.


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Offline David Dewar  
#56 Posted : 12 December 2019 11:46:19(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,923
Location: Scotland
I presume nobody actually has this loco. I also want to know if the number of rivets are correct. Lets be honest some will like it but the Marklin bashers never will.
Its not for me but that does not make it a bad model for others.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Rwill  
#57 Posted : 12 December 2019 12:50:47(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 602
Location: England, London
I am a pensioner with relatively small Marklin disposable income. Yet every year egged on by this forum I follow the new items saga and dream of my purchases. This year "the little suitcases" more than caught my eye, but then so did the price so it was kind of forgotten until it came up on the forum a couple of months ago as imminent – isn’t that nearly a year after it was announced as a new item? So what appears to be normal for a high priced new item the criticism and failings get highlighted and I am no expert to join in the discussion – for me at these kind of prices I should expect perfection plus. So I shelve the dream again hoping that in six months to a year I may pick one up heavily discounted as it disappears from the current range and the "experts" have decided its broadly OK. I am not a MRR perfectionist – how can I be my layout is based on an MDF board with a few badly built building kits.
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Offline jvuye  
#58 Posted : 12 December 2019 13:22:28(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
I agree. Haters will be haters. And not surprizingly they are also completely ignorant or oblivious to the facts. Even an overlay of a model picture on an official factory drawing won't sway them. They never toured the factory and don't have a clue of what is involved to build these models. They have no clue on the complexity of designing such a model. They have never seen the real engine with their own eyes. Still they say it's wrong, and it's too expensive, and they elect not to notice the evidence they are presented with. You can decide how to call that. As I said, I rest my case.
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Goofy  
#59 Posted : 12 December 2019 14:11:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
I agree. Haters will be haters. And not surprizingly they are also completely ignorant or oblivious to the facts. Even an overlay of a model picture on an official factory drawing won't sway them. They never toured the factory and don't have a clue of what is involved to build these models. They have no clue on the complexity of designing such a model. They have never seen the real engine with their own eyes. Still they say it's wrong, and it's too expensive, and they elect not to notice the evidence they are presented with. You can decide how to call that. As I said, I rest my case.


But the haters do have right too.
The problem are those who confuse.
You did present a composite of picture, but this was made of Märklin.
When you see a model you will start complain if there is fault and design flaws.
I would not accept a model that cost nearly 600 euro and find out some faults even on the body.
Even Märklin insider crocodile there was design flaw and also DB 103 extra lenght (windows).

Offline mbarreto  
#60 Posted : 12 December 2019 15:23:26(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 941
Trying to clarify a bit, I compared the photo of the model with the drawing. The way I try to show it is not super precise but gives an idea of what we are talking about.
I used vertical bars in red to alighn both and be sure they are to the same scale. Doing it I confirmed the axles in the main body are compliant with the drawing.
To the left the vertical bars in blue and orange show there is a small difference.
For some this is a big problem, for others it is not so much as we are talking about a model that need to deal with R1.



Regards,
Miguel

Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Unholz  
#61 Posted : 12 December 2019 16:23:46(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,202
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
They never toured the factory and don't have a clue of what is involved to build these models. They have no clue on the complexity of designing such a model. They have never seen the real engine with their own eyes. Still they say it's wrong, and it's too expensive, and they elect not to notice the evidence they are presented with.

Dear Jacques, aren't you exaggerating a bit now? Wink

After looking into my personal archives, I can assure you that I saw and photographed the prototype loco Ce 6/8 I 14201 for the first time in the year 1970 at Berne. That is almost 50 years ago... Since then, I have had numerous "reunions" with the machine - the most memorable one probably the trip over the Lötschberg and Simplon route to Domodossola in February 1976 with her "rescuer" Hans Schneeberger as driver in the cab.

MY main criticism of Märklin's model is not the width of the gap between the front end of the cab and the rear of the "suitcases" - my concern is how ridiculous the model looks when it passes through curves and turnouts/points. All this bouncing and swaying is so utterly toy-like - and Märklin could easily have prevented this effect by simply attaching the "suitcases" alone firmly to the rest of the body. One doesn't need to have toured the factory at Göppingen to notice this - a pair of standard human eyes is sufficient. Bored

If this factual observation makes me a hater, then so be it. Huh
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Offline jvuye  
#62 Posted : 12 December 2019 17:15:01(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
They never toured the factory and don't have a clue of what is involved to build these models. They have no clue on the complexity of designing such a model. They have never seen the real engine with their own eyes. Still they say it's wrong, and it's too expensive, and they elect not to notice the evidence they are presented with.

Dear Jacques, aren't you exaggerating a bit now? Wink

After looking into my personal archives, I can assure you that I saw and photographed the prototype loco Ce 6/8 I 14201 for the first time in the year 1970 at Berne. That is almost 50 years ago... Since then, I have had numerous "reunions" with the machine - the most memorable one probably the trip over the Lötschberg and Simplon route to Domodossola in February 1976 with her "rescuer" Hans Schneeberger as driver in the cab.

MY main criticism of Märklin's model is not the width of the gap between the front end of the cab and the rear of the "suitcases" - my concern is how ridiculous the model looks when it passes through curves and turnouts/points. All this bouncing and swaying is so utterly toy-like - and Märklin could easily have prevented this effect by simply attaching the "suitcases" alone firmly to the rest of the body. One doesn't need to have toured the factory at Göppingen to notice this - a pair of standard human eyes is sufficient. Bored

If this factual observation makes me a hater, then so be it. Huh


Ok Stefan!

I know you had to be closer to the real thing than anybody else here.
If anybody had to have seen it , it had to be you.
One little detail that I hope you haven't missed is that they **actually** swing left to right on the real thing as they are mounted on the articulated half chassis.

So Märklin must have been faced with the dilemma of choosing a design that would mimic the real loco, or make a longer body with the suitcases artificially attached and then cheating with the buffers'beam and couplers swinging underneath.

That's is debatable, indeed.

But personally I would have voted for the solution they chose in final analysis.
FYI, Metropolitan did exactly the same thing on their reproduction, but it cannot be used on our "fantasy" layouts, unless you have infinite space....

One more detail that may have escaped to most: the Märklin model is supposed to present the situation as in 1919.

That is before the small deflector plates were mounted on all 4 corners of the body work .

I took a picture of these in 2008 (see attached) where they clearly show, while they were not present in the early years. 5as can be seen on the corresponding pictures earlier in this thread.

++Z-1299094.jpg

That may explain why the gap **looks** closer on some recent pictures than on the original ones and factory drawings

Cheers

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#63 Posted : 12 December 2019 17:56:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,143
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

If you take look at prototype real photo you see the locomotive does looks more closer than in the drawing pictures.
The distance between the wheels seems correct but the body in both end seems wrong drawing.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_Fc_2x3/4



But none of the photos I have seen look squarely at the side of the unit to show the gap. The videos referenced in various places are always an oblique view which doesn't give an eyeline through the gap either.

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Offline midwestbls  
#64 Posted : 12 December 2019 19:51:25(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
.......
This picture of prototype showed the gap.
You can judge which is wider or closer than marklin.

91vdXcezIBL.jpg
...


As I said, don't get disturbed by the facts!! Laugh


The gap in prototype are smaller.
To present in HO scale the gap will be much smaller than Märklin.
In Märklin case they present larger scale in gap because of the narrow curve track R1, which are fantasy too.




The prototype photo is at an angle, of course the gap "looks" smaller.
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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Offline midwestbls  
#65 Posted : 12 December 2019 20:21:23(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Don't like it ... don't buy it! Final analysis these are TOYS, models, reproductions, as close as can be ... and, yes, they have to work on ridiculously tight radii. EVERY model in the Marklin catalog has some compromise for function and manufacturing ability. There have been a number of "special" models - mostly steamers - where the minimum radius is R2, and I do wish M had manufactured to that spec with this one. I'm sure there's a bit of extra "looseness" to get it around a R1, but for heaven's sake folks...! This is such a stupid argument on a MODELING forum!

Most modern M-made DB passenger cars, even at less than 1:87 (1:93 or 1:98?! GASP! Horror!) look terrible rounding R2, if not R3. I was really proud of my extensive collection of TRUE 1:87 (303mm) Roco coaches, until I realized they looked even worse in an actual compressed modeling space than the "adjusted" models (1:100 or M's 1:93/98). The Roco's are now all sold and replaced with M versions. BTW, I also was really proud of my PROTOTYPICAL 2-rail DC models and track - I mean NO mainlines have little pieces of metal sticking up from or between every tie, right?! I switched to M/AC, 3-rail because it's just that much simpler for the modeler - especially one who has had to work with temporary layouts (C-Track!!!), and doesn't want to have to have an extra piece of wiring/equipment/relay/whatever, wherever you create a reverse loop ...

I've wanted a model of this "original crocodile" since I saw a friend's Metropolitan version on his DC layout 20 years ago, which as Jacques says has the kofferli prototypically mounted on the end axles which move independently around corners. I, too, prefer this prototypical approach that M has taken with the inherent compromises required of MODEL trains. Give me the prototypical design with a little extra gap! I ordered mine the first moment I saw it announced - I couldn't get my e-mail typed fast enough!
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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Offline jvuye  
#66 Posted : 12 December 2019 20:43:38(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: midwestbls Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
.......
This picture of prototype showed the gap.
You can judge which is wider or closer than marklin.

91vdXcezIBL.jpg
...


As I said, don't get disturbed by the facts!! Laugh


The gap in prototype are smaller.
To present in HO scale the gap will be much smaller than Märklin.
In Märklin case they present larger scale in gap because of the narrow curve track R1, which are fantasy too.




The prototype photo is at an angle, of course the gap "looks" smaller.


Yes. Thank You Bill!

And these are pictures from the very early years of operation before the corner plates high lighted in my picture above were welded on the corners.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Bent  
#67 Posted : 12 December 2019 22:16:20(UTC)
Bent


Joined: 23/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Copenhagen,
Hi

I have just collected my crocodile, and I am very satisfied. This is a beauty, and it runs smoothly.

The picture shows the locomotive in almost the same angle as the prototypes shown and in post #8, I can't see the difference, and this I mine Love

However, I can't see the missing landscape either, some might say!

UserPostedImage

Cheers
Cheers,

Bent
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Offline David Dewar  
#68 Posted : 12 December 2019 23:23:03(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,923
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: Bent Go to Quoted Post
Hi

I have just collected my crocodile, and I am very satisfied. This is a beauty, and it runs smoothly.

The picture shows the locomotive in almost the same angle as the prototypes shown and in post #8, I can't see the difference, and this I mine Love

However, I can't see the missing landscape either, some might say!

UserPostedImage

Cheers


Enjoy your model and forget the Marklin bashers. They wont buy it but plenty will and their opinion is the important one.
Can you give us a video of the model running which would be great.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline jcrtrains  
#69 Posted : 13 December 2019 01:15:30(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 507
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I am looking forward to receiving mine. I learned more about the locomotive from this thread. In addition, I also learned the following:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values, or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. When two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people will do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new evidence (facts) perceived, wherein they will try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[2][1]

In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.[2]

I had never heard the term before - thanks.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#70 Posted : 13 December 2019 04:02:47(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,325
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Bent Go to Quoted Post
Hi

I have just collected my crocodile, and I am very satisfied. This is a beauty, and it runs smoothly.

Cheers


Wow - that looks very, very nice Bent. You are correct that it is a real beauty and for me all of that worry about the dreaded gap seem way overblown.

I am eager to receive mine but it will most likely be a good while yet, so I appreciate seeing images. ThumpUp

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline jvuye  
#71 Posted : 13 December 2019 08:53:38(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: jcrtrains Go to Quoted Post
I am looking forward to receiving mine. I learned more about the locomotive from this thread. In addition, I also learned the following:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values, or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. When two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people will do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new evidence (facts) perceived, wherein they will try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[2][1]

In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.[2]

I had never heard the term before - thanks.


I know this is totally off subject and I apologize for the soap boxing.

A big part of the current media/political/advertisement:communication strategies (wether commercial, political or others) are based on that principle.

First step is to create the perception that there is a problem (creating discomfort/anxiety/anger) , eventually by repeating many times the same "information"

Second step is to present a solution to resolve /mitigate the problem.

This is when sometimes the providential man/product/law "who will save the day" will be pushed forward

Step 3 is "impregnation campaign " to confirm acceptance and create the perception that the purported "problem" has being cured.

We can look around in our day to day lives , this is what medias are living from...and this is why we should always be weary of "providential products/solutions/people/changes"

End of soapboxing..my trains are waitingWink



Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Goofy  
#72 Posted : 13 December 2019 10:48:42(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: Bent Go to Quoted Post
Hi

I have just collected my crocodile, and I am very satisfied. This is a beauty, and it runs smoothly.

The picture shows the locomotive in almost the same angle as the prototypes shown and in post #8, I can't see the difference, and this I mine Love

However, I can't see the missing landscape either, some might say!

UserPostedImage

Cheers


Can you take a picture of the model side of it?

Offline Goofy  
#73 Posted : 13 December 2019 10:52:07(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jcrtrains Go to Quoted Post
I am looking forward to receiving mine. I learned more about the locomotive from this thread. In addition, I also learned the following:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values, or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. When two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people will do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new evidence (facts) perceived, wherein they will try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[2][1]

In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.[2]

I had never heard the term before - thanks.


I know this is totally off subject and I apologize for the soap boxing.

A big part of the current media/political/advertisement:communication strategies (wether commercial, political or others) are based on that principle.

First step is to create the perception that there is a problem (creating discomfort/anxiety/anger) , eventually by repeating many times the same "information"

Second step is to present a solution to resolve /mitigate the problem.

This is when sometimes the providential man/product/law "who will save the day" will be pushed forward

Step 3 is "impregnation campaign " to confirm acceptance and create the perception that the purported "problem" has being cured.

We can look around in our day to day lives , this is what medias are living from...and this is why we should always be weary of "providential products/solutions/people/changes"

End of soapboxing..my trains are waitingWink





If you want to discuss about physical "brain" condition, you can do it in another thread like NMR. LOL

Offline ktsolias  
#74 Posted : 13 December 2019 11:41:43(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 488
Location: Athens
Dear Friends

Sorry but I can't understand the reason for this conversation.

I think that is pointless

1. Nothing in model railway is truly to scale (the turnouts the curves etc) If somebody has a Märklin layout in exact scale please let us know.
2. The models must run, going on curves, on turnouts and stay on the rails. Are not presentation items for most of us but working one's
3. Maybe Märklin is not exactly in scale with the prototype.
4. To much for a loco that we haven't seen yet. I am waiting to keep my hands on....
5. IF YOU THINK THAT IS NOT RIGHT IN SCALE OR IN PRICE SIMPLY DON"T BUY IT.
6. There are hundreds of railway model makers, better or worse than Μärklin. If you don't like Marklin models go for something else.
7. Is really bad in a specialized site (Märklin-users.net) to wright only negative posts.

Waiting the Beautiful Fc 2x3/4

Best Regards

Costas

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Offline David Dewar  
#75 Posted : 13 December 2019 12:11:26(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,923
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
Dear Friends

Sorry but I can't understand the reason for this conversation.

I think that is pointless

1. Nothing in model railway is truly to scale (the turnouts the curves etc) If somebody has a Märklin layout in exact scale please let us know.
2. The models must run, going on curves, on turnouts and stay on the rails. Are not presentation items for most of us but working one's
3. Maybe Märklin is not exactly in scale with the prototype.
4. To much for a loco that we haven't seen yet. I am waiting to keep my hands on....
5. IF YOU THINK THAT IS NOT RIGHT IN SCALE OR IN PRICE SIMPLY DON"T BUY IT.
6. There are hundreds of railway model makers, better or worse than Μärklin. If you don't like Marklin models go for something else.
7. Is really bad in a specialized site (Märklin-users.net) to wright only negative posts.

Waiting the Beautiful Fc 2x3/4

Best Regards

Costas





Good post. Anti Marklin folk (not many thankfully) will always look to rubbish a Marklin product. Point five you make is right. just don't buy it. There are faults with some Marklin products as with all model rail stuff but I don't get why join a Marklin site if you never appear to like anything made by Marklin and promote other items. I also like Brawa and Roco but they also are not perfect.
I totally agree with your point 7 above although if you buy a model and find a genuine fault then it is useful to discuss it for the benefit of others.
Enjoy your model.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Schistad  
#76 Posted : 13 December 2019 23:51:22(UTC)
Schistad


Joined: 02/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Schistad
Hi,
Other vendors also have a large distance between the ”suitcases” and loco body. See the attached picture of the Fulgurex model:

I have ordered the model and look forward to receiving this “crocodile ancestor”.
Bernhard
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Offline mbarreto  
#77 Posted : 14 December 2019 01:45:33(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 941

The problem is R1 and sometimes R2, not the model...

:)
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline jvuye  
#78 Posted : 14 December 2019 14:47:48(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Schistad Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
Other vendors also have a large distance between the ”suitcases” and loco body. See the attached picture of the Fulgurex model:
....
I have ordered the model and look forward to receiving this “crocodile ancestor”.
Bernhard


yes, "ancestor" Wink
But in fact the Ce 6/8 II went into service even before this one.
It had a "cousin" from the same constructor, the Be 4/6 which was originally used for passenger/express trains
It shared a large number of components: motors, electromechnical switches, etc.
The Be 4/6 was produced in series,and kept in service for over 65 years .
That allowed the SBB to keep the Ce 6/8 I Köfferli operational for the same time because it could benefit from the spares supplies from their "cousins's" stock
At the end of its career, it was used for a series of brake tests.
At the heart of this was Mr Hans Schneeberger, SBB chief traction engineer who literally saved this grandmother from being dismantled.
Both the engineer and the loco have reached the "legend" status by all afficionaos of Swiss trains.
So, this Märklin model is certainly welcome!


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline dickinsonj  
#79 Posted : 15 December 2019 00:52:34(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,325
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Both the engineer and the loco have reached the "legend" status by all aficionados of Swiss trains.
So, this Märklin model is certainly welcome!


My crocs and I are all eagerly awaiting the arrival of our Fc 2x3/4 BigGrin I think that it looks great from the little that I have seen so far. I agree that it is odd that it is being delivered now and they still have only shown two photos of the model and a couple of engineering prototypes.

But with the high regard I have for my crocs I could not pass up getting a cousin to help fill out my Swill loco roster and this seems like just the thing. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mbarreto  
#80 Posted : 15 December 2019 17:43:22(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 941

One thing strange about this item is Märklin doesn't have a specific video about it yet (as far as I know).
The RAm, S3/6, 241 and also the Fall new items V200 and its set have dedicated videos in the M youtube channel.

Regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Herrfleck  
#81 Posted : 15 December 2019 19:52:09(UTC)
Herrfleck

Sweden   
Joined: 08/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

One thing strange about this item is Märklin doesn't have a specific video about it yet (as far as I know).
The RAm, S3/6, 241 and also the Fall new items V200 and its set have dedicated videos in the M youtube channel.

Regards,
Miguel


Hallo!

Does anyone know where it is manufactured??

Is it in Göppingen Györ or in far East by an other manufacturer??

I dont know if Märklin makes models in far East any more time??

I have preordered the modell and looking forward to get it!

It looks really good on the pictures!!!Razz

Regards

Bertil.
- since my lack in english I don't write so much here.. but learn by trying right? :) -

//Bertil
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Offline Bart  
#82 Posted : 17 December 2019 00:28:03(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
The first test drives posted on YouTube:
Köfferli Test drive
K-track test drive
*Bart
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Offline RayF  
#83 Posted : 17 December 2019 13:38:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Bart Go to Quoted Post
The first test drives posted on YouTube:
Köfferli Test drive
K-track test drive


Looks great in operation!

Thanks for sharing the videos! ThumpUp
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline David Dewar  
#84 Posted : 17 December 2019 15:15:45(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,923
Location: Scotland
Good videos. Enjoy the model and ignore the usual suspects who just don't like Marklin. Not my type of model but good to see it selling and those buying are pleased with it.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Herrfleck  
#85 Posted : 17 December 2019 18:17:25(UTC)
Herrfleck

Sweden   
Joined: 08/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 258

Hello!

Its now green on märklins HomePage !

They have it in stock!

Is that the same as it is shipped to all who has preorder it???

Hoppe that!Drool

Regards

Bertil
- since my lack in english I don't write so much here.. but learn by trying right? :) -

//Bertil
Offline Bart  
#86 Posted : 17 December 2019 18:53:15(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Just arrived!
I'm very happy with the model

UserPostedImage

The 'Köfferli gap' is really decent when static


Märklin really did their best to solve the Köfferli problem, designing a swivel mechanism like they do with short couplers:
the spring-loadded, heart-shaped opening pulls the Köfferli in when on straight track, and allows more distance in curves.

in:
UserPostedImage
out:
UserPostedImage
curve:
UserPostedImage

Top view
in:
UserPostedImage
out:
UserPostedImage
curve:
UserPostedImage


I just could have 2 suggestions for a follow-up model:

1. The spring is quite weak, and the Köfferli bogie tends not to be retracted as much as it could. I will experiment with more tension.

2. Since the couplers are part of the Köfferli bogie, I expect it will be pulled out when hauling wagons, even on straight track. Test drive will follow....

In the future, one may think of mounting the Köfferli on a separate, sliding bottom plate resting on the bogie, which will extend and swivel in curves, but not as much as the bogie itself.
*Bart
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Offline jvuye  
#87 Posted : 17 December 2019 23:34:41(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Thanks Bart!
Can't wait to see mine!!
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline mbarreto  
#88 Posted : 18 December 2019 09:14:42(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 941
Hi,

I also thank Bart about the photos, they really show a lot about the croc.
Several days ago I wrote in this thread:

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Maybe something like the mechanisms used in the close couplers that can extend the distance between the central body and the extremes when the locmotive is in the curves would have a better visual effect.

I don't know if this type of solution would work without derrailling the locomotive when pulling many wagons...


After seeing the pictures from Bart, I must say that my thoughts previously posted were used by Märklin in anticipation. They are lucky I didn't register a patent LOL

Of course in Erstfeld, as a member wrote before, they need to implement R1. At least a circle with pukos and non operating catenary. After that they will probably need to do some upgrades to the real locomotive but that will be easy as it is just to implement in 87:1 what Märklin already did :)

Regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline jvuye  
#89 Posted : 18 December 2019 11:24:01(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Bart Go to Quoted Post
Just arrived!
I'm very happy with the model

UserPostedImage

The 'Köfferli gap' is really decent when static


Märklin really did their best to solve the Köfferli problem, designing a swivel mechanism like they do with short couplers:
the spring-loadded, heart-shaped opening pulls the Köfferli in when on straight track, and allows more distance in curves.

in:
.....
I just could have 2 suggestions for a follow-up model:

1. The spring is quite weak, and the Köfferli bogie tends not to be retracted as much as it could. I will experiment with more tension.

2. Since the couplers are part of the Köfferli bogie, I expect it will be pulled out when hauling wagons, even on straight track. Test drive will follow....

In the future, one may think of mounting the Köfferli on a separate, sliding bottom plate resting on the bogie, which will extend and swivel in curves, but not as much as the bogie itself.


I just looked at Bart's pictures once again.
Honestly, I think Märklin went out of their way to make the loco look like the real thing in straight alignments and sharp curves, and found a very smart solution for rthe small radius curves that are simply a (non prototypical...) reality on most layouts

Seeing the way the articulations and the guiding mechanisms are conceived it wouldn't cause undue spacing, even with a heavy train.

I was a very vocal critic when they came out with the RAe Gottardo (and still am!!) because clearly they did not really try very hard , while the 1970's Ram TEE (later Northlander) had a visually much more satisfying solution.
And they had already produced other very acceptable solutions where they could find inspiration from (like the DB ICE 1, 2 and 3 sets for instance)




Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline river6109  
#90 Posted : 18 December 2019 12:21:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,071
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Unless I've missed it, the only problem for me is, it only comes in 1 version with sound but these days a build in sound decoder isn't as expensive when you buy a separate sound decoder (ESU) and than there is the added problem can you find the prototypical sound for it or would you use a Crocodile sound file ? other manufacturers give you the choice of: analog but with a DCC decoder socket, DCC with or without sound. some of my conversions (36000 models) gave me the opportunity to add a sound decoder myself, in hind side I don't think I've gained anything in price except all my sound decoders are from ESU.
I also read comments whereas the modeller doesn't like sound decoders but likes the model itself and may not buy it because of its cost and its sound decoder and from a selling point Märklin may has restricted its potential buyers., the same could be said about the french steam loco but having a sound decoder for a steam loco is a different cattle of fish for me.

There is a strong message from Märklin, pay up or shut up.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Bent  
#91 Posted : 26 December 2019 17:39:47(UTC)
Bent


Joined: 23/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Copenhagen,
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post

Enjoy your model and forget the Marklin bashers. They wont buy it but plenty will and their opinion is the important one.
Can you give us a video of the model running which would be great.


Thanks David
Sorry I first reply now, December has been busy.
I still have to learn how to upload a videoCrying , and I can see that Bart has already linked to some good videos.
I am still enjoying my croc :-)
Cheers,

Bent
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Offline Bent  
#92 Posted : 26 December 2019 17:51:19(UTC)
Bent


Joined: 23/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Copenhagen,
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bent Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Can you take a picture of the model side of it?


Hi Goofy
When I took the picture I deliberately took it from this angle, since there were plenty of pictures from the side of the model, and only a few, if any from the side front.
However pictures from the prototype, were taken from almost the same angle as I tried to.
Cheers,

Bent
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Offline midwestbls  
#93 Posted : 03 January 2020 21:35:23(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

One thing strange about this item is Märklin doesn't have a specific video about it yet (as far as I know).
The RAm, S3/6, 241 and also the Fall new items V200 and its set have dedicated videos in the M youtube channel.

Regards,
Miguel


Hallo!

Does anyone know where it is manufactured??

Is it in Göppingen Györ or in far East by an other manufacturer??

I dont know if Märklin makes models in far East any more time??

I have preordered the modell and looking forward to get it!

It looks really good on the pictures!!!Razz

Regards

Bertil.



Just received mine ... "MADE IN CHINA".

Generally, I have no problem with this and have a number of beautiful M models made in China. And this is a beautiful model - I'm very pleased with it. BUT for a new-tooling, special, new, highly desired, expensive model, why not make in Germany or Hungary?! It's all perception, but I'm very surprised for a model like this ...



ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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Offline Herrfleck  
#94 Posted : 04 January 2020 22:50:51(UTC)
Herrfleck

Sweden   
Joined: 08/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by: midwestbls Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

One thing strange about this item is Märklin doesn't have a specific video about it yet (as far as I know).
The RAm, S3/6, 241 and also the Fall new items V200 and its set have dedicated videos in the M youtube channel.

Regards,
Miguel


Hallo!

Does anyone know where it is manufactured??

Is it in Göppingen Györ or in far East by an other manufacturer??

I dont know if Märklin makes models in far East any more time??

I have preordered the modell and looking forward to get it!

It looks really good on the pictures!!!Razz

Regards

Bertil.



Just received mine ... "MADE IN CHINA".

Generally, I have no problem with this and have a number of beautiful M models made in China. And this is a beautiful model - I'm very pleased with it. BUT for a new-tooling, special, new, highly desired, expensive model, why not make in Germany or Hungary?! It's all perception, but I'm very surprised for a model like this ...





Hello!

I must say I am very disiponted at Märklin!!

Regards

Bertil.
- since my lack in english I don't write so much here.. but learn by trying right? :) -

//Bertil
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Offline Herrfleck  
#95 Posted : 04 January 2020 22:59:25(UTC)
Herrfleck

Sweden   
Joined: 08/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 258
Hello!

At picture in post 86 from member Bert.

At the bottom off the loko looks like it is broken or at least strange in casting???

Regards

Bertil.
- since my lack in english I don't write so much here.. but learn by trying right? :) -

//Bertil
Offline TEEWolf  
#96 Posted : 04 January 2020 23:11:53(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,408
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Hello!

I must say I am very disiponted at Märklin!!

Regards

Bertil.


Why and about what are you disappointed? What had Maerklin done to you?
Offline Goofy  
#97 Posted : 04 January 2020 23:21:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Hello!

I must say I am very disiponted at Märklin!!

Regards

Bertil.


Why and about what are you disappointed? What had Maerklin done to you?


Made in China TEEWolf??
Of course i am disappointed too!
Didn´t Märklin verified to stop produce train models in China?
I did had problem with the BR 64 made of Märklin in China and it was horrible.
Are swiss model 39520 really made in China!?? Confused

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Offline Herrfleck  
#98 Posted : 04 January 2020 23:24:21(UTC)
Herrfleck

Sweden   
Joined: 08/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Hello!

I must say I am very disiponted at Märklin!!

Regards

Bertil.


Why and about what are you disappointed? What had Maerklin done to you?


I dont like that they selling a märklin produkt in premium price!
And its not made in by märklin factory!

I can take that they sell pruducts like cheaper 36xxx lokos that is made by
another manufakturer.

Butt not a premium modell fot 570 euro.............Sad
- since my lack in english I don't write so much here.. but learn by trying right? :) -

//Bertil
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Offline Goofy  
#99 Posted : 04 January 2020 23:35:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,273
I agree with Herrfleck!
It is not fair if a model made in cheap country sells at higher price than what it should cost at lesser price instead.
But are midwestbls right about made in China? Confused
Offline TEEWolf  
#100 Posted : 04 January 2020 23:57:16(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,408
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Herrfleck Go to Quoted Post
Hello!

I must say I am very disiponted at Märklin!!

Regards

Bertil.


Why and about what are you disappointed? What had Maerklin done to you?


I dont like that they selling a märklin produkt in premium price!
And its not made in by märklin factory!

I can take that they sell pruducts like cheaper 36xxx lokos that is made by
another manufakturer.

Butt not a premium modell fot 570 euro.............Sad


Well for me it is not important where it is produced. The overall price/performance ratio and the product quality had to achieve my suggestions. Indeed this loco is high priced, but the S 3/6 (39436) - I guess was made in China probably too - was also high priced. But it is a real valuable nice loco, which I bought. The prior "Made in xxx-country" meanwhile is superseded by a "Made by "xxx-company". I think the quality of Maerklin was not bad anytime and has increased in the last years as well. Sometimes, I think a bit lower quality for a lower price would be more helpful. But it is as it is. But very high quality had the last insider models. I would recommend to buy one of these ones. Also I read Maerklin assures all Insider models are completely only produced in Goeppingen. BTW this might be a major reason for myself to buy the new TEE RAm.
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