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Offline Jabez  
#1 Posted : 04 August 2019 17:08:15(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
If you use this unit or its Viessmann equivalent should its output be exclusively connected to electromagnetic decoders or is it worthwhile to use it to directly power switches, signals, lighting circuits etc?
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline MaerklinLife  
#2 Posted : 04 August 2019 17:18:00(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
It is just for powering m83, m84 or the k83, k84 decoders. There is no need for using it to directly power anything. Remember it is not a power supply in itself, it sits between the m83, m84 and the actual power supply.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 04 August 2019 18:43:56(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
If you use this unit or its Viessmann equivalent should its output be exclusively connected to electromagnetic decoders or is it worthwhile to use it to directly power switches, signals, lighting circuits etc?


Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?

https://static.maerklin....26ebe6266d1487855273.pdf

excerpts of the manual:

page 6
"Safety Notes
The 60822 Power Supply Unit is for use for digital model railroads to supply power to the m83 / m84 / k83 decoders."

"The voltage supply for the Power Supply Unit comes exclusively by means of the 66360/66361/66365/66367 switched mode power pack."

page 7
"Electrical Connections
The 60822 Power Supply Unit requires only voltage supply from the 66360/60361/60365/66367 switched mode power pack. The connections to the m83 / m84 decoders are done by means of the side plug connection directly from device to device, without an intermediate cable or wire. The digital signal from the track (B/0) must be supplied at the first m83/m84 connected to the system.The 60822 Power Supply Unit cannot be supplied with voltage by being connected to the track"

Additionally:
in the 2014-01 Märklin Magazine is written:

"The decoder (m83, m84) can also be supplied by a separate switching power supply 66361. Additionally to this switched-mode power supply in the application is required the interference suppression unit 60822.

Important: Without using this additional device it cannot be ensured the compliance with EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) regulations. Therefore, please never relinquish this electronic."


And see here in a complete overview of Märklin digital the usage of a 60822:

https://www.maerklin.de/...Gesamt%C3%BCbersicht.pdf

Hopefully you realize the differences of a "Transformator" (60052), "Schaltnetzteil" (60061) and "Universalversorgungseinheit" (60822). Usage of all shown in the overview.


Make a long story short:

manual for the m83 (60832) page 12 (for the English version)

https://static.maerklin....26786045721516952533.pdf

"Electrical Connections (see page 2)
The m83 decoder only needs to be connected to the track current and to the turnouts to be controlled. The decoder can also be connected to the 66360/66365 switched mode power pack (only in conjunction with 60822) (here power is not taken from the track and the power demanded from the track is thereby less)."


I agree, the manuals can be written in a better informative way, especially showing their technical connection and varity to each other. 60822 only use for "electromagnetic decoders".BigGrin
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Offline rrf  
#4 Posted : 04 August 2019 22:30:14(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 264
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello Friends,

I started out with a 60822, an M83, an M84 and a few older K83s. I powered all of them thru the 60822 universal power supply. Then based upon information I learned on the forum, I discoverd I could plug power supplies directly into my M83 and M84 blocks without 60822s. All I lose is a bit of electromatic magnetic interference suppression. I now use the 60822 exclusively to power my four K83s.

BTW, one of the things I love about having separate power for my all my switches and signals is that their lights stay on when I hit stop on my CS3.
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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Offline Jabez  
#5 Posted : 05 August 2019 13:17:09(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?


Touché Blushing

I don't have the Maerklin item or its manual, I have the Viessmann version, so thanks for the links. I just wondered if the modified power output from this module might have advantages if used to power other components than those recommended.
Jabez

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline ktsolias  
#6 Posted : 05 August 2019 14:39:35(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: Athens
Hi

The 60822 is another example of a component that nobody knows exactly what is done and for what is here.

In pre-production literature

https://www.ajckids.com/products/Marklin/60822

was written that it was possible to connect as well and traditional transformers, the white or blue ones, to the 60822. NEVER after the production Märklin spoke about this.

There are two connections on the right lower side marked as 0 and B. In the manual the description is: 3 Currently not used

For what are there for???

Also there are the K2 connections.

Inside there are connections to K2 for a bridge rectifier witch means that it can be used for AC AS well.

More information's at

https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=132575

I am using the switched mode power pack directly to M83, M84 without any problem and with many advantages.


My feeling is that they produced this module for some reason but never worked out, so they sell it without clear reason....

Costas
Offline TEEWolf  
#7 Posted : 05 August 2019 18:28:22(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?


Touché Blushing

I don't have the Maerklin item or its manual, I have the Viessmann version, so thanks for the links. I just wondered if the modified power output from this module might have advantages if used to power other components than those recommended.
Jabez



Thanks for your answer. But it is a pitty, that quite often questions are asked and after an answer then these question were more detailed. If I would have known this before, I could have made a more specific research and written a slightly different answer. The major point of this article is this EMV, which Märklin has to follow. It is the law. But the second point is the security of your decoders, where @kstolias is referring to a thread at the Stummi-forum, which is explaining the 60822, the k83/m83/m84 universal power supply unit.

This link refers to a report of Stefan Krauss. Shortly summarized: you do not need the 60822. You can connect a power supply unit (e.g. 66360) directly with a m83. But he does not recommend it.

"Besides the filtering (EMC) the protection get lost. In the event of a short circuit, a large current could flow over the modules and destroy them. So let it be better."


I think, these are clear words. And Mr Krauss has a PhD in physics. In other statements he developed the autofuse box for protection of a MRR (Overcurrent detection AutoFuse)

http://www.skrauss.de/mo...bahn/autofuse/index.html

(sorry only in German)

which were published even in MRR papers.

Offline TEEWolf  
#8 Posted : 05 August 2019 18:29:56(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
...

My feeling is that they produced this module for some reason but never worked out, so they sell it without clear reason....

Costas


Not really - compare my posts before.
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 30 August 2019 23:44:38(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,166
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
As I once understood the reason for the 60822 and then proceeded to forget it and so every time the question comes up, I also cannot remember the what and why, I've dug into the excellent Stummi post by Kraussand will summarize here in English (under fair use of the images under US Copyright Law). This way this site has its own hardcopy of the assets that explain the situation.

The device 60822 is poorly named as it doesn't actually supply power so much as is a conduit/conditioner of power provided by an external regulated switching power supply.
That the various decoders also have a port for direct connection of the switching power supplies to them, does not help to avoid confusion.

From the Krauss description and the images here is what we have, as it is recommended one use the 60822 by Märklin.
uve60822_2ywr43.jpg

So the 60822 sits between the switching power supply and the decoders. Looking at the insides, there is not much going on inside:
A capacitor and inductor (and resistors on the bottom ) circuit that is just a filter, and a fuse. A purely passive circuit.
uve60822_3e3qvx.jpguve60822_4mcorq.jpg

This simple circuit serves two main purposes:

  1. Regulatory compliance on EMF suppression.
    To keep the intereference form going where the government doesn't want to go. May have been result of some EU homologation of laws over the years. My guess as to why the decoders can be directly supplied at all, this device came later on, after the decoders were already designed.

  2. Does provide protection against short circuit for m83 decoders.
    The yellow K6 is a self resetting poly fuse, that will trigger and cut off power if the current goes too high. When you are powering the decoder from the digital track power, controller (eg CS) providing that track power has the short circuit protection and shuts the power down. When supplying the decoders (m83/m84) directly from a switching power supply there isn't any such protection in place - so if the outputs of the decoder are short circuited, well you could fry the decoder. The theory is the 60822's auto-resetting-fuse will cut the power if you accidentally short the outputs of the decoders that would be drawing from switched power supply, the m83, the power would be shut off, thus protecting the m83. For the m84, which just switches relays, there isn't any benefit from the protection since the relay outputs don't draw power from this power source anyway.



So in the end, if you don't need/care about your governmental electromagnetic interference suppression rules, or don' have an EMF problem, AND you don't want/need the over-current protection for short circuits, you can plug your switching power supply (66367, 66360, etc) directly into the m83/m84 decoder.

The 45-50 € price tag is really the problem, when it appears to be about 10€ or less worth of parts at the margin. At 10€ it would be a no brainier, just put on on where needed but at €45-50, I'd be hard pressed to want to spend that for unnecessary protection.

An alternative approach to the protection problem which was suggested is to get a booster, and use that to then power all of the various m83/m84 decoders via their 'track signal/power' inputs. The booster would handle the short circuit protection. But that is a much more expensive solution, so the math of how many of what is needed for your own layout needs to be done.


I hope I got that correct; if I didn't let me know, and I'll fix this post.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 07 September 2019 10:01:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,326
Like this?
I too use external power supply for the m83 and m84.
This to avoid load on the track.
DSC_0001_137.JPG
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Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 07 September 2019 16:07:08(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Like this?
I too use external power supply for the m83 and m84.
This to avoid load on the track.
DSC_0001_137.JPG


Exactly. This is the way Maerklin and Dr. Krauss recommend it.
Offline mvd71  
#12 Posted : 07 September 2019 22:31:55(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,277
Location: Auckland,
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for putting Dr Krauss's post up for us along with your summary. That was very useful in terms of clarifying the purpose of this component and what it can offer us.

Cheers....

Mike
Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 07 September 2019 23:52:58(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,238
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

If you don't care about EMC regulations, 52,99 EURO can buy you a lot of 1 or 2 Amp fuses.............. BigGrin

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...:mJPsg1nSQLPwM7aaXALeUAw

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Online HerrDoktorBD  
#14 Posted : 07 September 2020 14:21:49(UTC)
HerrDoktorBD

United States   
Joined: 10/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 25
Hi.

Could you show us a diagram of how your k83s (60830) are connected to power.

Thanks in advance.

Tony

Originally Posted by: rrf Go to Quoted Post
Hello Friends,

I started out with a 60822, an M83, an M84 and a few older K83s. I powered all of them thru the 60822 universal power supply. Then based upon information I learned on the forum, I discoverd I could plug power supplies directly into my M83 and M84 blocks without 60822s. All I lose is a bit of electromatic magnetic interference suppression. I now use the 60822 exclusively to power my four K83s.

BTW, one of the things I love about having separate power for my all my switches and signals is that their lights stay on when I hit stop on my CS3.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 07 September 2020 15:30:47(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,053
Location: Paris, France
Hi
The connection is shown in 60832 booklet here
60832Power 66360.jpg
IMO 60822 is not a power supply but a filter needed to comply with some Electrical Noise standards. In most cases it is not needed and initially the 66360 power supply was to be plugged directly to the 60832. I am using an old computer to deliver the 18 VDC needed (and it is probably better-more line filtering)
So in short:
- Märklin says 60832 must be powered by a 66360 with a 60822 in-between like so
60832Power 66360 60822.jpg
- IMO 60832 must be powered by a 66360 directly.
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline TEEWolf  
#16 Posted : 07 September 2020 22:54:46(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: HerrDoktorBD Go to Quoted Post
Hi.

Could you show us a diagram of how your k83s (60830) are connected to power.

Thanks in advance.

Tony


Why do you fellows never read the manuals?

https://static.maerklin....d15404e0ee1596711571.pdf

page 7 in English Smile "Electrical Connections" answers your question.

Important is the fact you do attach the 60822 directly by its device to the 60830 without using a cable. But for the 60822 you need an extra power supply 6636x. The 60822 cannot be connected to the track current. It has a similar function as a booster for the complete layout, but the power support is limited to the decoders m83/m84.

Here the Maerklin digital systems architecture as an overview where the decoders are placed.

https://www.maerklin.de/...Gesamt%C3%BCbersicht.pdf

Also you see the choice supporting the decoders either directly from the tracks or with its own power supply 60822. Unfortunately in the picture it looks like the 60822 is connected with a cable to the decoder 60832. For this read the manual, please.
Offline clapcott  
#17 Posted : 09 September 2020 11:52:07(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,339
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: HerrDoktorBD Go to Quoted Post
....Could you show us a diagram of how your k83s (60830) are connected to power.

UserPostedImage

Edited by user 11 September 2020 09:01:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#18 Posted : 11 September 2020 19:26:08(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,053
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Yes Peter, it works like this but in this particular case the 60822 (line filter+Capacitor+over-current protection) is not providing any services except connecting the digital input with the digital output (which you could do without the 60822 module.

IMO the device is very very expensive for the little services it provides (to the 60832 and the likes) CONNECTED TO THE END (DELTA) CONNECTOR but in this case it provides NOTHING.
All the 60822 benefits are in the DC voltage "transformed" to the modules connected (by the sub D connector) to the 60822.
  • The inside capacitor provides an additional local energy. Yes indeed.

  • The current protection cuts the DC power BUT when this happens the 60832 (and the like modules) draw their energy from the digital signal. So it is debatable if it will stop a decoder / solenoid to burn in case of malfunction.


Note the power supply (60636) you are supposed to use also has already filtering output capacitor and an over-current protection

Really to pay over 50€ (60$) for this is a waste of money.
60822.jpg
The box is empty except (from left to right) a line filter, a capacitor and a self resetting current protection on the DC power,
Cheers
Jean
PS I am no Märklin specialist but an Engineer in Electronics
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline clapcott  
#19 Posted : 12 September 2020 05:59:05(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,339
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
it works like this but in this particular case the 60822 (line filter+Capacitor+over-current protection) is not providing any services except connecting the digital input with the digital output (which you could do without the 60822 module.

Are we looking at the same thing here? The main aspect here (with regards to my reply post for a k83) is to provide power from an auxiliary source.

The digital command from the track gets through , via a trickle reducing resister, and may drain a minuscule amount of power, but it is the the external power source provides the bulk of the grunt for solenoid devices, and thus reduces the distracting dimming of loco lights as points/signals are switched

Quote:
IMO the device is very very expensive ..... but in this case it provides NOTHING.

I am not prepared to debate price v value v functionality on this product when the functionality is ill defined.
I am on record, at various times in the last EIGHT years since the 60831 item was delivereded (which telegraphed the 60822 even though it wasn't announced at that time), as failing to see much in the way of a value proposition.

I have long since got past the point of bothering to engage in any "philosophical WHY's" about this item.
I usually just walk away in a hysterical fit each time the same dribble is rolled out seeking an answer where one does not exist.

However, HerrDoctorBD posted a specific and pointed HOW question which I felt I could help with.

I REALLY have empathy with the frustration caused when detail AND, more importantly , meaning is scarce.
The half pie replies that refer to "read the documents", do little more than compound the confusion. It is evident that the posters have neither Read NOR UNDERSTOOD the inadequacies they are referencing. These are in all probability the source of the original confusion and uncertainty, that prompted the question in the first place.

I had hoped, that by removing the static (of the m83/m84) from the diagram, and focusing just on the k83 aspect of the question, it would make things clearer.
If I failed in this aim. well - too bad.

I am all for the "non duplication" of information when that information is formally available elsewhere
This is not one of those cases.

The reply in post #15 does not address the original question, and only propagates a flawed representation of the source without regards for the basics.
Another reason for my post to bring the topic back to the original question

Quote:
All the 60822 benefits are in the DC voltage "transformed" to the modules connected (by the sub D connector) to the 60822.

I will take this (the "D connector" reference bit) to be something to do with the m83/m84 connectivity which is out of scope for this (k83) aspect of the discussion.

Quote:
  • The inside capacitor provides an additional local energy. Yes indeed.

Well actually No (or maybe)

The C3 Electrolytic capacitor is part of a (legacy) design to smooth the incoming AC (via K2) through bridge rectifier BR1.
As promoted originally, AC power provided via K1 and rectified was an alternate power source to the 6636x. AND MAY have been the origin of the "universal" in the products title.
This, AC input option, function never saw the light of day, as the BR1 and K2 bits are missing. I guess the C3 was too hard to de-solder.

So, as delivered, the C3 is a white elephant and only serves for marketing purposes to show that the item "looks" to be less barren than it might otherwise be - and justify another 50c on the margin.

On the other hand , installing BR1 offers a means to extend the ROI for old transformers .
BUT I can understand why this may have been relegated to the bin that does not see the light of day.

The K83, for which this might very well originally been targeted, derives a pedestal -22V DC on its Yellow outputs.
The current 60822 solution (if you stick with a 6636x powersupply) offers 18V DC , although the voltage label on the Base expects 19VDC.
If a good transformer was used the rectified 16VAC would literally translate to 22.6V DC - But most transformers are a lot higher with some of the mis-wired blue metal ones approaching 30V.
The k83 might have tolerated this - all bets are off with a M83/M84

Better to let sleeping dogs lie

Quote:
  • The current protection cuts the DC power BUT when this happens the 60832 (and the like modules) draw their energy from the digital signal. So it is debatable if it will stop a decoder / solenoid to burn in case of malfunction.

While out of scope for the 60822/k83 discussion I will weigh in and fully agree that you have called out the whole solutions Achilles heel. Withouth this fundemental "effective" protection all the other points of view pale into insignificance and are moot.

The contra argument, of just plugging the 6636x into the barrel connector of the m83(less so the m84) directly, means such a surge from the controller would not occur.

By all means add a 2 Amp inline fuse so as not to over stress the poor 6636x. But, here again an electrical engineer with a grasp on the nominal operating specifications of the m83 with all its permutations would need specify the "slow blow" characteristics of such a fuse.

As it might apply to a similar scenario with the 60822 being used for a k83, the protection is intact within the same box

Quote:
Note the power supply (60636) you are supposed to use also has already filtering output capacitor and an over-current protection

I would expect nothing less ! (noting that electronic design these days works on a a much finner tolerance when it comes to headroom and over engineering compared to some of the older Marklin products)
However as an electronics engineer, the device that is being provided with power SHOULD have its own protection, with a design threshold lower than that of the power supply.

I deviate, temporarily, into the m83/m84 argument and declare that not only were the 60831/60841 delivered without protection, their subsequent descendants 60832/60842 learnt nothing from this fiasco.
It is the m83 that is the prime issue due to external influences.
The m84 is less of an issue here as it has full contained control of its load. EXCEPT if you want to get into the topic of the Hobby signals.

Quote:
The box is empty except (from left to right) a line filter, a capacitor and a self resetting current protection on the DC power

To summarize,
- the capacitor is not in a usable part of the circuit
- the Choke (which does have have 2 x attendant capacitors (C1 & C2) on the underside of the board) and the "self resetting current protection" are probably remnants of a design for the k83 using a transformer with unpredictable variance in their supply voltage.

- the unit does have a power available indicator (LED)
- and an indicator (LED) for fuse trip
{sarcasm} what a great new idea, lets add ergonomic feedback on other devices like L88/S88 {/sarcasm}
- and an unused D-9 connector (K6) to help justify a few more points of product margin and another 50c

In closing,
Last century, when Viessmann (and others) brought out their k83 look alikes with exposed switches and a documented means for external power to be attached to reduce the pulsing impact , especially on lights - most Marklin modelers were hopping to see something similar.

This (60822/6636x) solution might be a (very) little and a (lot) late, but it is one way for modelers who do not want to risk electronic solution that might void warranties to feel they have an out of the box solution from Marklin that they can rely on.
If only Marklin marketing would appreciate what reality means and communicate it a way that makes sense.

Thanks for listening... I'll get the asbestos suit out.

Edited by user 13 September 2020 01:51:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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