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Offline Jabez  
#1 Posted : 04 August 2019 17:08:15(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 615
Location: Brussels
If you use this unit or its Viessmann equivalent should its output be exclusively connected to electromagnetic decoders or is it worthwhile to use it to directly power switches, signals, lighting circuits etc?
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline MaerklinLife  
#2 Posted : 04 August 2019 17:18:00(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
It is just for powering m83, m84 or the k83, k84 decoders. There is no need for using it to directly power anything. Remember it is not a power supply in itself, it sits between the m83, m84 and the actual power supply.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 04 August 2019 18:43:56(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,872
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
If you use this unit or its Viessmann equivalent should its output be exclusively connected to electromagnetic decoders or is it worthwhile to use it to directly power switches, signals, lighting circuits etc?


Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?

https://static.maerklin....26ebe6266d1487855273.pdf

excerpts of the manual:

page 6
"Safety Notes
The 60822 Power Supply Unit is for use for digital model railroads to supply power to the m83 / m84 / k83 decoders."

"The voltage supply for the Power Supply Unit comes exclusively by means of the 66360/66361/66365/66367 switched mode power pack."

page 7
"Electrical Connections
The 60822 Power Supply Unit requires only voltage supply from the 66360/60361/60365/66367 switched mode power pack. The connections to the m83 / m84 decoders are done by means of the side plug connection directly from device to device, without an intermediate cable or wire. The digital signal from the track (B/0) must be supplied at the first m83/m84 connected to the system.The 60822 Power Supply Unit cannot be supplied with voltage by being connected to the track"

Additionally:
in the 2014-01 Märklin Magazine is written:

"The decoder (m83, m84) can also be supplied by a separate switching power supply 66361. Additionally to this switched-mode power supply in the application is required the interference suppression unit 60822.

Important: Without using this additional device it cannot be ensured the compliance with EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) regulations. Therefore, please never relinquish this electronic."


And see here in a complete overview of Märklin digital the usage of a 60822:

https://www.maerklin.de/...Gesamt%C3%BCbersicht.pdf

Hopefully you realize the differences of a "Transformator" (60052), "Schaltnetzteil" (60061) and "Universalversorgungseinheit" (60822). Usage of all shown in the overview.


Make a long story short:

manual for the m83 (60832) page 12 (for the English version)

https://static.maerklin....26786045721516952533.pdf

"Electrical Connections (see page 2)
The m83 decoder only needs to be connected to the track current and to the turnouts to be controlled. The decoder can also be connected to the 66360/66365 switched mode power pack (only in conjunction with 60822) (here power is not taken from the track and the power demanded from the track is thereby less)."


I agree, the manuals can be written in a better informative way, especially showing their technical connection and varity to each other. 60822 only use for "electromagnetic decoders".BigGrin
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline rrf  
#4 Posted : 04 August 2019 22:30:14(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello Friends,

I started out with a 60822, an M83, an M84 and a few older K83s. I powered all of them thru the 60822 universal power supply. Then based upon information I learned on the forum, I discoverd I could plug power supplies directly into my M83 and M84 blocks without 60822s. All I lose is a bit of electromatic magnetic interference suppression. I now use the 60822 exclusively to power my four K83s.

BTW, one of the things I love about having separate power for my all my switches and signals is that their lights stay on when I hit stop on my CS3.
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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Offline Jabez  
#5 Posted : 05 August 2019 13:17:09(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 615
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?


Touché Blushing

I don't have the Maerklin item or its manual, I have the Viessmann version, so thanks for the links. I just wondered if the modified power output from this module might have advantages if used to power other components than those recommended.
Jabez

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline ktsolias  
#6 Posted : 05 August 2019 14:39:35(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Athens
Hi

The 60822 is another example of a component that nobody knows exactly what is done and for what is here.

In pre-production literature

https://www.ajckids.com/products/Marklin/60822

was written that it was possible to connect as well and traditional transformers, the white or blue ones, to the 60822. NEVER after the production Märklin spoke about this.

There are two connections on the right lower side marked as 0 and B. In the manual the description is: 3 Currently not used

For what are there for???

Also there are the K2 connections.

Inside there are connections to K2 for a bridge rectifier witch means that it can be used for AC AS well.

More information's at

https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=132575

I am using the switched mode power pack directly to M83, M84 without any problem and with many advantages.


My feeling is that they produced this module for some reason but never worked out, so they sell it without clear reason....

Costas
Offline TEEWolf  
#7 Posted : 05 August 2019 18:28:22(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,872
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Why don't you chaps never read the manual first? Isn't the abbreviation RTFM?


Touché Blushing

I don't have the Maerklin item or its manual, I have the Viessmann version, so thanks for the links. I just wondered if the modified power output from this module might have advantages if used to power other components than those recommended.
Jabez



Thanks for your answer. But it is a pitty, that quite often questions are asked and after an answer then these question were more detailed. If I would have known this before, I could have made a more specific research and written a slightly different answer. The major point of this article is this EMV, which Märklin has to follow. It is the law. But the second point is the security of your decoders, where @kstolias is referring to a thread at the Stummi-forum, which is explaining the 60822, the k83/m83/m84 universal power supply unit.

This link refers to a report of Stefan Krauss. Shortly summarized: you do not need the 60822. You can connect a power supply unit (e.g. 66360) directly with a m83. But he does not recommend it.

"Besides the filtering (EMC) the protection get lost. In the event of a short circuit, a large current could flow over the modules and destroy them. So let it be better."


I think, these are clear words. And Mr Krauss has a PhD in physics. In other statements he developed the autofuse box for protection of a MRR (Overcurrent detection AutoFuse)

http://www.skrauss.de/mo...bahn/autofuse/index.html

(sorry only in German)

which were published even in MRR papers.

CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#8 Posted : 05 August 2019 18:29:56(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,872
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
...

My feeling is that they produced this module for some reason but never worked out, so they sell it without clear reason....

Costas


Not really - compare my posts before.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 30 August 2019 23:44:38(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,017
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
As I once understood the reason for the 60822 and then proceeded to forget it and so every time the question comes up, I also cannot remember the what and why, I've dug into the excellent Stummi post by Kraussand will summarize here in English (under fair use of the images under US Copyright Law). This way this site has its own hardcopy of the assets that explain the situation.

The device 60822 is poorly named as it doesn't actually supply power so much as is a conduit/conditioner of power provided by an external regulated switching power supply.
That the various decoders also have a port for direct connection of the switching power supplies to them, does not help to avoid confusion.

From the Krauss description and the images here is what we have, as it is recommended one use the 60822 by Märklin.
uve60822_2ywr43.jpg

So the 60822 sits between the switching power supply and the decoders. Looking at the insides, there is not much going on inside:
A capacitor and inductor (and resistors on the bottom ) circuit that is just a filter, and a fuse. A purely passive circuit.
uve60822_3e3qvx.jpguve60822_4mcorq.jpg

This simple circuit serves two main purposes:

  1. Regulatory compliance on EMF suppression.
    To keep the intereference form going where the government doesn't want to go. May have been result of some EU homologation of laws over the years. My guess as to why the decoders can be directly supplied at all, this device came later on, after the decoders were already designed.

  2. Does provide protection against short circuit for m83 decoders.
    The yellow K6 is a self resetting poly fuse, that will trigger and cut off power if the current goes too high. When you are powering the decoder from the digital track power, controller (eg CS) providing that track power has the short circuit protection and shuts the power down. When supplying the decoders (m83/m84) directly from a switching power supply there isn't any such protection in place - so if the outputs of the decoder are short circuited, well you could fry the decoder. The theory is the 60822's auto-resetting-fuse will cut the power if you accidentally short the outputs of the decoders that would be drawing from switched power supply, the m83, the power would be shut off, thus protecting the m83. For the m84, which just switches relays, there isn't any benefit from the protection since the relay outputs don't draw power from this power source anyway.



So in the end, if you don't need/care about your governmental electromagnetic interference suppression rules, or don' have an EMF problem, AND you don't want/need the over-current protection for short circuits, you can plug your switching power supply (66367, 66360, etc) directly into the m83/m84 decoder.

The 45-50 € price tag is really the problem, when it appears to be about 10€ or less worth of parts at the margin. At 10€ it would be a no brainier, just put on on where needed but at €45-50, I'd be hard pressed to want to spend that for unnecessary protection.

An alternative approach to the protection problem which was suggested is to get a booster, and use that to then power all of the various m83/m84 decoders via their 'track signal/power' inputs. The booster would handle the short circuit protection. But that is a much more expensive solution, so the math of how many of what is needed for your own layout needs to be done.


I hope I got that correct; if I didn't let me know, and I'll fix this post.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 07 September 2019 10:01:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,029
Like this?
I too use external power supply for the m83 and m84.
This to avoid load on the track.
DSC_0001_137.JPG
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 07 September 2019 16:07:08(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,872
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Like this?
I too use external power supply for the m83 and m84.
This to avoid load on the track.
DSC_0001_137.JPG


Exactly. This is the way Maerklin and Dr. Krauss recommend it.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline mvd71  
#12 Posted : 07 September 2019 22:31:55(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Location: Auckland,
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for putting Dr Krauss's post up for us along with your summary. That was very useful in terms of clarifying the purpose of this component and what it can offer us.

Cheers....

Mike
Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 07 September 2019 23:52:58(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

If you don't care about EMC regulations, 52,99 EURO can buy you a lot of 1 or 2 Amp fuses.............. BigGrin

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...:mJPsg1nSQLPwM7aaXALeUAw

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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