Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB 
it works like this but in this particular case the 60822 (line filter+Capacitor+over-current protection) is not providing any services except connecting the digital input with the digital output (which you could do without the 60822 module.
Are we looking at the same thing here? The main aspect here (with regards to my reply post for a k83) is to provide power from an auxiliary source.
The digital command from the track gets through , via a trickle reducing resister, and may drain a minuscule amount of power, but it is the the external power source provides the bulk of the grunt for solenoid devices, and thus reduces the distracting dimming of loco lights as points/signals are switched
Quote:IMO the device is very very expensive ..... but in this case it provides NOTHING.
I am not prepared to debate price v value v functionality on this product when the functionality is ill defined.
I am on record, at various times in the last
EIGHT years since the 60831 item was delivereded (which telegraphed the 60822 even though it wasn't announced at that time), as failing to see much in the way of a value proposition.
I have long since got past the point of bothering to engage in any "philosophical
WHY's" about this item.
I usually just walk away in a hysterical fit each time the same dribble is rolled out seeking an answer where one does not exist.
However, HerrDoctorBD posted a specific and pointed
HOW question which I felt I could help with.
I REALLY have empathy with the frustration caused when detail AND, more importantly , meaning is scarce.
The half pie replies that refer to "read the documents", do little more than compound the confusion. It is evident that the posters have neither Read NOR UNDERSTOOD the inadequacies they are referencing. These are in all probability the source of the original confusion and uncertainty, that prompted the question in the first place.
I had hoped, that by removing the static (of the m83/m84) from the diagram, and focusing just on the k83 aspect of the question, it would make things clearer.
If I failed in this aim. well - too bad.
I am all for the "non duplication" of information when that information is formally available elsewhere
This is not one of those cases.The reply in post #15 does not address the original question, and only propagates a flawed representation of the source without regards for the basics.
Another reason for my post to bring the topic back to the original question
Quote:All the 60822 benefits are in the DC voltage "transformed" to the modules connected (by the sub D connector) to the 60822.
I will take this (the "D connector" reference bit) to be something to do with the m83/m84 connectivity which is out of scope for this (k83) aspect of the discussion.
Quote:- The inside capacitor provides an additional local energy. Yes indeed.
Well actually No (or maybe)
The C3 Electrolytic capacitor is part of a (legacy) design to smooth the incoming AC (via K2) through bridge rectifier BR1.
As promoted originally, AC power provided via K1 and rectified was an alternate power source to the 6636x. AND MAY have been the origin of the "universal" in the products title.
This, AC input option, function never saw the light of day, as the BR1 and K2 bits are missing. I guess the C3 was too hard to de-solder.
So, as delivered, the C3 is a white elephant and only serves for marketing purposes to show that the item "looks" to be less barren than it might otherwise be - and justify another 50c on the margin.
On the other hand , installing BR1 offers a means to extend the ROI for old transformers .
BUT I can understand why this may have been relegated to the bin that does not see the light of day.
The K83, for which this might very well originally been targeted, derives a pedestal -22V DC on its Yellow outputs.
The current 60822 solution (if you stick with a 6636x powersupply) offers 18V DC , although the voltage label on the Base expects 19VDC.
If a good transformer was used the rectified 16VAC would literally translate to 22.6V DC - But most transformers are a lot higher with some of the mis-wired blue metal ones approaching 30V.
The k83 might have tolerated this - all bets are off with a M83/M84
Better to let sleeping dogs lie
Quote:- The current protection cuts the DC power BUT when this happens the 60832 (and the like modules) draw their energy from the digital signal. So it is debatable if it will stop a decoder / solenoid to burn in case of malfunction.
While out of scope for the 60822/k83 discussion I will weigh in and fully agree that you have called out the whole solutions Achilles heel. Withouth this fundemental "effective" protection all the other points of view pale into insignificance and are moot.
The contra argument, of just plugging the 6636x into the barrel connector of the m83(less so the m84) directly, means such a surge from the controller would not occur.
By all means add a 2 Amp inline fuse so as not to over stress the poor 6636x. But, here again an electrical engineer with a grasp on the nominal operating specifications of the m83 with all its permutations would need specify the "slow blow" characteristics of such a fuse.
As it might apply to a similar scenario with the 60822 being used for a k83, the protection is intact within the same box
Quote:Note the power supply (60636) you are supposed to use also has already filtering output capacitor and an over-current protection
I would expect nothing less ! (noting that electronic design these days works on a a much finner tolerance when it comes to headroom and over engineering compared to some of the older Marklin products)
However as an electronics engineer, the device that is being provided with power SHOULD have its own protection, with a design threshold lower than that of the power supply.
I deviate, temporarily, into the m83/m84 argument and declare that not only were the 60831/60841 delivered without protection, their subsequent descendants 60832/60842 learnt nothing from this fiasco.
It is the m83 that is the prime issue due to external influences.
The m84 is less of an issue here as it has full contained control of its load. EXCEPT if you want to get into the topic of the Hobby signals.
Quote:The box is empty except (from left to right) a line filter, a capacitor and a self resetting current protection on the DC power
To summarize,
- the capacitor is not in a usable part of the circuit
- the Choke (which does have have 2 x attendant capacitors (C1 & C2) on the underside of the board) and the "self resetting current protection" are probably remnants of a design for the k83 using a transformer with unpredictable variance in their supply voltage.
- the unit does have a power available indicator (LED)
- and an indicator (LED) for fuse trip
{sarcasm} what a great new idea, lets add ergonomic feedback on other devices like L88/S88 {/sarcasm}
- and an unused D-9 connector (K6) to help justify a few more points of product margin and another 50c
In closing,
Last century, when Viessmann (and others) brought out their k83 look alikes with exposed switches and a documented means for external power to be attached to reduce the pulsing impact , especially on lights - most Marklin modelers were hopping to see something similar.
This (60822/6636x) solution might be a (very) little and a (lot) late, but it is one way for modelers who do not want to risk electronic solution that might void warranties to feel they have an out of the box solution from Marklin that they can rely on.
If only Marklin marketing would appreciate what reality means and communicate it a way that makes sense.
Thanks for listening... I'll get the asbestos suit out.
Edited by user 13 September 2020 01:51:18(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified
