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Offline michelvr  
#1 Posted : 07 May 2016 14:41:11(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Good morning fellow Marklin users!

Time for a great debate: The Marklin Puko Contact challenge, should it stay or should it go!

I for one Love Marklin!

BUT at times I think the "PUKO (Third Rail)" should go! Just like the AC motors Marklin had in their locomotives, technology changes for the better. Is it time for Marklin to abandon the puko to survive in the model train world or will the puko help Marklin in it's survival?

Here is my take on the third rail.

The advantage:

It simplifies reversing loops. The puko never reverses polarity! The puko simplifies turnout frog power, since both crossing rails are the same polarity and better contact for continuous power distribution*

*not always though!!

The disadvantage:

Pukos look darn ugly, especially on the turnouts. Pukos look out of place with the nature of things and it makes the track ties look wrong! Some sliders miss the puko in acquiring power, really a design fault.

So let's go and make a whole lot of noise why we love or like the pukos. No hate please because I don't believe in hate, life's too short for that nonsense!

For the record I will not abandon the track with the puko, unless Marklin takes the bold step and then I will have no choice. Life is full of changes and changes are always for the good!

Michel

Edited by user 10 May 2016 04:36:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 07 May 2016 14:52:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Is it time for Marklin to abandon the puko to survive in the model train world or will the puko help Marklin in it's survival?
The Pukos help Märklin to survive.

Those who abandon the Pukos can buy Märklin quality in Trix boxes.
Trix is not overwhelmingly successful in H0 gauge.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#3 Posted : 07 May 2016 14:57:19(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Vigo, Spain
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Is it time for Marklin to abandon the puko to survive in the model train world or will the puko help Marklin in it's survival?
The Pukos help Märklin to survive.

Those who abandon the Pukos can buy Märklin quality in Trix boxes.
Trix is not overwhelmingly successful in H0 gauge.


End of the thread?

Lol

Regards
Carlos
My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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Offline michelvr  
#4 Posted : 07 May 2016 15:06:56(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Is it time for Marklin to abandon the puko to survive in the model train world or will the puko help Marklin in it's survival?
The Pukos help Märklin to survive.

Those who abandon the Pukos can buy Märklin quality in Trix boxes.
Trix is not overwhelmingly successful in H0 gauge.


End of the thread?

Lol

Regards
Carlos


I concur! BUT?.....End of the thread, we haven't even begun! Carlos don't spoil the debate!

Lol BigGrin

Cheers,

Michel
Offline Danlake  
#5 Posted : 07 May 2016 16:16:19(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Michel,

I can live with how pukos look and doesn't bother me that much.

I think there is many more advantages with the third rail than disadvantages, e.g. the ease of making contact tracks by isolating one of the outside rails.

Don't forget that with 2 rails you will then be looking a wipers to ensure continues conductivity. Not a bullet proof solution either...

Maybe in the furture we will have small powered battery engines or maglev trainsBigGrin

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline franciscohg  
#6 Posted : 07 May 2016 22:10:12(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
No problem with the pukos!!!
Other than the advantages already pointed out, do you imagine the nightmare of converting your oldies to 2-rail operation?????
No way, 3-rail is here to stay.....LOL
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 07 May 2016 23:07:00(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Pukos = return loops without short circuits. Simplicity rules !
:o)
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 08 May 2016 01:32:40(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Pukos look darn ugly.........


Who cares!?

I sure do not, especially if they make things more reliable which they do.

Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Life is full of changes and changes are always for the good!


Not always, and for Marklin to change it would remove their point of difference. As Tom points out, we might as well buy Trix then.

Interesting though, you don't see the pukos on either Z or 1 Gauge.
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Offline petestra  
#9 Posted : 08 May 2016 02:06:21(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
I would not trade my Märklin Pukos for all the DC track/trains in the world. It is the only model railway for me since 1964.



Peter Cool
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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 08 May 2016 03:23:07(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
There are several major advantages to AC vs DC (analog). In 3 rail AC systems, reverse loops are not an issue (as already mentioned several times). It is also possible to reverse the direction of a locomotive by voltage surge, unlike DC models where the polarity of the rails has to be inverted to accomplish the same. If a Maerklin locomotive is reversed in a blocked off section, it will continue to run in the same direction on the open network. Any locomotive on a DC network will run in the opposite direction once polarity has been reversed, so you cannot change the direction of just one locomotive, unless it is within a specific zone with separate circuit only.

The centre stud has improved in looks over the years and is less obvious than the older version. It's advantages far outweight it's disadvantages.

I, am a big fan of the Maerklin system. I may not be a big fan of everything that Maerklin does or makes. I prefer full length coaches to the scale length reduced models and oversimplified offerings. My biggest beef with the company is that they don't have a consistent policy. Some models are 1/87, others are 1:93.5 and yet others are in different scales to suit a particular model length. The models have offset bogie mounts, which have some advantages (e.g. reduced overhang and the ability to handle tighter radii).

What I want to see from Maerklin is a commitment to larger radii. The new curved switches are a great start, but they need to follow through so that R3, R4 and R5 can be connected.
Once that is done, I will be able to fully enjoy operating my Maerklin system loks with the exact scale coaches and cars.

Instead of just focusing on the toy part of the market, they should try to maximize the options.
Many people might choose other than Maerklin if their local model train group or layout has chosen 2 rail DC
By keeping all of their potential customers in mind, Maerklin can remain relevant and a player for a longer period of time.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 08 May 2016 03:42:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I wouldn't change, although all my electric locos using the overhead power supply, pukos themselves don't bother me, on my snow scenery it almost invisible and also on the other modules can't notice it, I think we get used to it and part of growing up with them there are advantages, the only thing worries me over the years (over 30 years) the layout or modules haven't been in the best environment (exposure to acid and atmospheric moisture but this has been almost eliminated since I've added insulation to the walls, the next step before winter sets in is the ceiling (insulation) so some of my pukos ave almost disappeared over the years because of filing (diamond file) them down to get a clean surface again. Otherwise I'm happy with it, and other observation is M- tracks the most noticable, C - track not as much sand K - track even less.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline NS1200  
#12 Posted : 08 May 2016 10:32:16(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Pukos are a way of life,Marklin would not be Marklin without them.

Nevertheless,the world around us is constantly changing in every respect.
As a marketeer working for a commercially operated company you need to be mindful of that and adjust your productrange when the need arises.
I used to drive SAAB cars in my younger years because i liked to drive something special,how foolish i was.
We all know what happened with the SAAB car division.
Fiat once sold a car called Mirafiori,a car which should last a lifetime,the only problem being that buyers do not want the same car for the rest of their life!

Marklin cannot possibly discard the pukos because that would leave countless 3-railers (having AC locomotives) out in the cold.
On the other hand they have done a wise thing to copy their rolling stock for Trix 2-rail DC,so that they can have the best of both worlds.

In my humble opinion the pukos are not so much the problem for Marklin,but the pricesetting is.
There comes a moment in time that premium pricing no longer works when other brandnames offer at least equal value for money.
Why buy a SAAB (having a 2 ltr Triumph engine) when you can buy a VW Golf which is better equipped?

The Fiat Mirafiori,would you buy it now?

https://upload.wikimedia...131_S_Mirafiori_1600.jpg
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline PhillipL  
#13 Posted : 08 May 2016 12:38:08(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 123
I am relatively new to Marklin (about two years) but have model DC for over twenty five year. I really like Marklin products although to be honest my purchases have all been under the "Startup" line. I have to say I really like the system (especially the C tracks), my locomotives such the the BR 89 is a great runner and very robust (I have grandchildren who I often have over). To switch to DC would really be wrong in my opinion and I hope they do not as it has made Marklin unique and I think a bit better than many of the other lines.
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Offline MalinAC  
#14 Posted : 08 May 2016 13:16:04(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
You could always go with Marklin Hamo which is dc and their Trix dc track is the same type as c track I think
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Offline NS1200  
#15 Posted : 08 May 2016 14:39:40(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
I have been told on this forum that the rails used for Trix C track is different from the Marklin C track rails,the profile seems to be different.

If you opt for Trix you still buy a proper Marklin made product,for 2 rail DC that is.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline michelvr  
#16 Posted : 08 May 2016 15:35:44(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
"The-Marklin-Puko-Contact-Challange-DEBATE, Should Marklin go 2 rail for it's survival" by Michel.

Member partipants; HO, carlos-rivas-16752, Danlake, franciscohg, Alsterstreek, petestra, Mike c, river6109, NS1200, PhillipL and MalinAC.

After being disappointed with some trivial issues with Marklin's K track Double Slip Switch PUKOS I thought to reach out and find out what your thoughts were about the PUKOS! I was thinking is 2 rail any better?

"Thank you all for proving that constructive dialogue works. I have the marklin-users.net community right in front of me and I'm going use it (YOU) for learning, and yes with more learning I can unquestionably say that the PUKOS are the identity and the strengths of the Marklin brand. 

 I would like to thank all of you for the your comments on this post. They are all thought provoking and sincere. What I have learnt is how compassionate we all are when it come to Marklin.

Sincerely,

Michel

I wholeheartedly agree with NS1200 - Maerklin: the dream will live on!

Edited by user 09 May 2016 01:15:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline franciscohg  
#17 Posted : 08 May 2016 15:56:16(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post


The Fiat Mirafiori,would you buy it now?

https://upload.wikimedia...131_S_Mirafiori_1600.jpg


Seems to be a nice car......personally I am always on the watch for a well aged 2CVBigGrin
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline hennabm  
#18 Posted : 08 May 2016 18:55:55(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,040
Location: Edinburgh,
The Pukos are what gives M its USP. I wouldn't want them to forget 3 rail AC fans.

I agree with NS1200 in that now M have Trix for 2 rail fans then they have the best of both worlds.

Regarding quality then M must up their game to warrant the premium pricing or consider levelling with competitors.

I would buy a new Fiat especially the 132 as they were a great car to drive. I am not a fan of "moderns". They are bland and most are fwd. BMW for one offer a restoration service for owners to keep their older cars on the road. I have seen an E3 and 2002 done rough them and they are wonderful.
If I could afford it my 1982 323 would go back to them for a rebuild.

Out of my fleet of 5 cars I have a 34, 27 and 26 year old and then 4 and 6. Which ones do I enjoy most - yep the older ones.

So, returning to trains I would love to see M offer some analogue stuff again or offer a factory refit service to maintain e older ones.

Just my ramblings.

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
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Offline NS1200  
#19 Posted : 08 May 2016 19:47:58(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post


The Fiat Mirafiori,would you buy it now?

https://upload.wikimedia...131_S_Mirafiori_1600.jpg


Seems to be a nice car......personally I am always on the watch for a well aged 2CVBigGrin


A well aged 2CV comes with a rust package for free.
I am looking at oldtimers myself,in particular SAAB 96 V4 models (very rusty too).
Unbelieveable what sort of prices people dare to ask for these cars.


Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#20 Posted : 08 May 2016 19:53:44(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: hennabm Go to Quoted Post
The Pukos are what gives M its USP. I wouldn't want them to forget 3 rail AC fans.

I agree with NS1200 in that now M have Trix for 2 rail fans then they have the best of both worlds.

Regarding quality then M must up their game to warrant the premium pricing or consider levelling with competitors.

I would buy a new Fiat especially the 132 as they were a great car to drive. I am not a fan of "moderns". They are bland and most are fwd. BMW for one offer a restoration service for owners to keep their older cars on the road. I have seen an E3 and 2002 done rough them and they are wonderful.
If I could afford it my 1982 323 would go back to them for a rebuild.

Out of my fleet of 5 cars I have a 34, 27 and 26 year old and then 4 and 6. Which ones do I enjoy most - yep the older ones.

So, returning to trains I would love to see M offer some analogue stuff again or offer a factory refit service to maintain e older ones.

Just my ramblings.

Mike


Thank you for your ramblings.
I think Marklin are caught in the informatica trap,like so many other companies.
Productioncosts are rising,so are productprices,upto a level where potential customers will say no thank you.

About Beamers:i would love to own a fully restored BMW 315!



Cheers,

Paul

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline RayF  
#21 Posted : 08 May 2016 20:25:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Pukos are virtually invisible to me, having grown up and lived my whole life with them! BigGrin. The visual impact is much less than some critics would have us think.

I think the Marklin "3 rail" system has many advantages over "two rail" for ease of layout design and operational reliability. I have worked in DC "2 rail" myself, and find that there are more problems with electrical contact then with my Marklin trains.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline petestra  
#22 Posted : 08 May 2016 20:47:12(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Pukos are virtually invisible to me, having grown up and lived my whole life with them! BigGrin. The visual impact is much less than some critics would have us think.

I think the Marklin "3 rail" system has many advantages over "two rail" for ease of layout design and operational reliability. I have worked in DC "2 rail" myself, and find that there are more problems with electrical contact then with my Marklin trains.


Absolutely right, Ray. When I was around 9 my dad bought me a Tyco DC HO set here in the states. It was terrible. It never stayed on the tracks

and the quality was crap, even back then in 1962. When I saw the beautiful display layout that Märklin had at the famous FAO Schwartz store

in Manhattan, NYC I was hooked and there was never any going back for me. Peter.Cool
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Offline rbw993  
#23 Posted : 08 May 2016 21:20:40(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
Three rail forever!

I have built 2 rail layouts in N and HO; 3 rail layouts in HO and O. 3rd rail wins out for operation every time.

Roger
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Offline hxmiesa  
#24 Posted : 09 May 2016 15:53:58(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
I tihnk that -for all reasons and purposes- Märklin has already gone 100% in on 2-rail H0. There is hardly any new M-product launched, that doesnt come in an equivalent Trix version at the same time, or shortly after.
Even the track-pieces are similar, and you dont get the terrible-looking (for some) pukos with the Trix-track.

The argument of locos going in opposite or same direction is only valid for analog operation. 2-rail digital locomotives can do the same as 3-rail ones.

For analog locomotives, the direction reverser relay gives advantages, but does also cause problems; Like the loco shooting ahead with 500km/h, when you try to give the reverse-24V-impulse, and the spring prevents the relay from engaging.
The ease of return-loop constructions is paid for by the hassle with the troublesome slider, which gets easily bent, makes noise and can cause shorts (especially when running through points, right ;-) )

For me, the major advantage is the ease with wich we can make detection-points, although one must admid that the 2-rail world has really simple electronic modules for detection too, but still the simplicity of the 3rd rail cant be beaten here!

In a modern world with many other high-tech model railroad producers, the ONLY thing that set M apart, is its dedication to, -and control of, the 3-rail world. If there was only a 2-rail word to be enjoyed, M. would probably have ceased to exist already. In the 3-rail world they are still king-of-the-hill. It doenst even matter if other maufactures can do certain things better. For overall 3-rail you still have to rely on M.

Whether the pukos bothers you or not is purely a personal matter, but I am convinced that a great amount of "denial" is present when people claim that "they dont see them", yet same people write page-long essays about the wrong type of very-tiny windshield wipters, or other nietenzhäler details impossible to see without a magnifying glass... (Sorry, I had to say this, go on and hate me! ;-)
There is aboslutly NO reason for living with the pukos -AND having to pay a premium price for the tracks!- if it wasnt for the fact that we have already invested a lot of money in the brand and system, making a switch-over economically difficult. Some might prefer the look-and-feel of the M.-products. Other are here for vintage modelling or re-living childhood memories/dreams. But claiming some kind of overall superiority of the 3-rail system is just plain WRONG (IMHO of course!). And I think we have proven beyond doubt, that there arent any superior manufacturer-quality either!

So... I think that M. staying with 3-rail is more a political business choice. During almost a 100 years, they have built up a standard and user-base, wich holds 50% of the home marked. And M. controls this standard!
I repeat; Märklin is basically offereing everything in 2-rail too, under the Trix name. But in FIERCE competition with the rest of the manufactureres. And it is NOT selling in great numbers among the 2-rail users...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline analogmike  
#25 Posted : 09 May 2016 17:50:51(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
The only way I will give up Pukos is to go solid 3rd rail.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline Roland  
#26 Posted : 09 May 2016 18:05:48(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 332
Location: Toronto, Canada
Turnouts and crossings aside, IMO pukos aren't that bad. I grew up with M and then K track so I can't deny I'm at least slightly biased. But for me it is more so about the quality of loks and cars and for that reason, I could never see myself switching to another brand to avoid pukos.
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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Offline Marty  
#27 Posted : 09 May 2016 19:05:08(UTC)
Marty

United States   
Joined: 29/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 272
Location: USA
Years ago I was told that DC will pit the wheels of locomotives, and that AC doesn't have that problem. In the digital age I don't know if that still holds true...

-Marty
Marty
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Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 09 May 2016 20:39:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I don't know if I would start with 3-rail again if I would start today.

MiWuLa started with 3-rail track because they thought it had less contact problems.
Recent regions were built with 2-rail track. And they are about to replace 3-rail track with 2-rail track over time.

I think much more people switch from 3-rail to 2-rail than the other way around.


Märklin has the nostalgic touch if you played with Märklin in your childhood - and the legendary quality if you buy older stuff from eBay.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#29 Posted : 09 May 2016 20:42:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Marty Go to Quoted Post
In the digital age I don't know if that still holds true...
In the digital age, both 2-rail and 3-rail use the same current.

In the analogue days, many people used DC with 3-rail tracks - Märklin locos with diodes instead of the mechanical reversing unit.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kweekalot  
#30 Posted : 09 May 2016 20:44:00(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
I don't like the weird pukos, I like solid center rail much better.

Marco
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Offline nitramretep  
#31 Posted : 09 May 2016 21:59:03(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I would miss the pukos, my brother runs DC and it looks weird to me! I like the 3 rail design, it makes sense and the newer K & C track it's almost invisible. Granted ballasting can be a little touch with C track. I remember as a kid having a solid center conductor, Hornby, or Dublo not certain which.
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Offline DTaylor91  
#32 Posted : 10 May 2016 02:25:49(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
I once had a good-sized collection of VERY highly detailed U.S. prototype models, many of them hand-made brass imports, with the rest built from very high quality kits. I never fitted any of them with decoders, preferring analog. Why? One of the things I do to earn money is electronics repair. Who wants to spend "Hobby time" doing the same stuff they do at work? At the time I decided to go with Märklin, if you wanted a decoder fitted, it had to be hand-wired in, and 90% of the time you had to totally disassemble a locomotive and contrive a way to isolate the motor from the frame. THEN came the tedious programming.

Even running them analog, I never built a real layout because analog or digital, wiring turnouts (especially a complicated configuration such as a switching yard or passenger station) was nearly torture. So, my beautiful models ran only on occasion, on a loop, or straight line of track. After awhile, the nostalgia bug kicked in, and I started playing with Lionel O gauge again. I had fun running trains, not worrying if the number of rivets was correct, and was easily able to build complicated switching setups because it was all 3-rail.

It was not too long after though, that I began missing the detailing, and the modeling. I had always found European trains more esthetically pleasing (Especially German, I'm a sucker for red wheels I guess), and there was a new dealer nearby that sold Märklin. I went to have a look. I had avoided Märklin in the past because of the too-deep flanges, and sometimes "crude" detail, but the ease of running things on Lionel 3-rail softened my attitude on such things. Upon arriving at the dealer, I was pleasantly surprised. The too-large flanges were still there, but were far less noticeable because the wheels were now blackened, and the newer models had a MUCH higher level of delicate detail. This happened to be not too long after the first Mobile Station had come out. I didn't have digital in mind really, but I saw how beautifully the new Märklin digital models ran and was impressed. Then the clincher: The dealer showed me how the mobile station worked. Wait, you mean I DON'T have to do a bunch of cryptic programming? The decoders are already installed? All I have to do to add a new locomotive is call it up from the database? AND, on top of all that, the ease of wiring a three-rail layout? Sign me up!

Almost all the U.S. prototype stuff is gone, except for two brass locomotives I couldn't bear to part with, and I have a sizable collection of Märklin models now. The layout is disassembled currently, because plans for a newer and better one are being made. I will NOT give up my 3-rail!!!!

Now, if Märklin could just somehow come up with a way to make C-trak flextrack!BigGrin

[EDIT]: In other words, the pukos could be painted neon orange and I wouldn't care!Love
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#33 Posted : 10 May 2016 03:47:50(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Toy trains are toy trains!

I have two rail.
I have HO tin plate track made by Bing in 1925, and solid centre rail made by Hornby (Dublo) and VB (France).
I have a Maerklin C track layout.

They are all great, and they all work.
Vive les trains miniatures!

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Minok  
#34 Posted : 10 May 2016 19:27:15(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Kimball, you need to watch that BBC series (at least the first 15 minute segment) about model trains and how the first British models were explicitly marketed as being "model trains" and not "toy trains" - there were targeted at adults with disposable income... like us I bet. :)

I'm not bothered by the visual aesthetics of the puko's, compared to the many other things that distract from the authentic look of the layout vs the real world, the puko is the least of my problems (backdrop, ground around tracks, buildings, lighting (ie the sun) , streets and street/rail crossings, etc).

The acoustics of the pukos is the one thing I'd love to improve upon or eliminate. There is something nice about a 2 rail DC/DCC system just running on wheels without that scraping of pukos against sliders I do find nice.

Ok, and the other thing is train lighting in the cars - having to have an additional pickup in the car or dealing with the current power conducting couplings is a complexity - though with todays circuitry and LEDs that can be nursed past glitches with capacitors, the conducting couplings are not such a big deal anymore..
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Harryv40  
#35 Posted : 11 May 2016 09:27:24(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Everyone
My take on this is that Marklin 3 rail is brilliant!
It makes, in my humble option, special for these reasons,.
1. Great loco running, I used to model N Gauge where poor running was standard unless you clean the track every time you use it.

2. C track is easy to assemble, take down and reassemble. When I started with Marklin late last year it allowed me to set up and try new ideas before planning my layout.

3. Electrical performance of the track is excellent.

4. Allowing for the occasion issue, the quality of the stock available to run.

5. I know it's expensive, but if you live in the Uk it allows you to make friends all over the world, especially model shop owners in Germany!!!!

6. Also friends like RayF in Gibraltar who posts great photos and is happy to give guidance.

Well that's me, it's different and I like different!!

Harry
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#36 Posted : 11 May 2016 20:27:56(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
5. I know it's expensive, but if you live in the Uk it allows you to make friends all over the world...

Spot on!

I live in Denmark, and I have made friends from far away places as well. No one in Germany yet - oddly enough. Whenever I meet a fellow "Märklinist" I can always find something to talk about, and I can always enjoy another person's collection - perhaps including models that I never got myself. I think this way of collecting is unique to the Märklin community, and being part of the community and meeting people adds huge value to - at least - my hobby.

I have met a fair share of 2-rail users with which I absolutely nothing in common (except for two words: Model Railway). With a Märklinist it is different. It just is. I am lacking words to describe it.

I am one of the few (I think) that collects Märklin through Trix. The majority of my friends run 2-rail, which is why I made that decision years ago. My upcoming layout will feature a 3-rail loop, so my older models can get their exercise. Smile Welcome is also any fellow Märklinist's model that may stop by (bringing its owner - of course)! Smile

LOL! Post no. 1000 - Hooray! LOL
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Mark_1602  
#37 Posted : 11 May 2016 23:21:41(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everyone,

I don't mind the Pukos, but what I don't like at all is that the advantages of Märklin's AC system that I could rely on in my childhood have slowly been eroded.

The old analoge Märklin locomotives weren't very detailed or prototypical, but they never had contact problem because in the past every axle was used to maintain the electric contact between the locomotive and the track. That's no longer the case.

The Märklin system used to be simple, but mfx and mfx+ are pretty complex as well as less reliable, which often kills the fun.

That's what I loved about Märklin in my childhood, though I never liked M-rails but dreamed of building a layout with K-track.

Most Märklin locomotives I buy nowadays are older analogue models, and I think they're still fun and good value for money as well as being suitable for children. Pukos are not Märklin's problem, I think, and the ones on C-track are hardly noticeable. Märklin can't stop using Pukos anyway.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline I_love_Marklin_37538  
#38 Posted : 11 May 2016 23:31:34(UTC)
I_love_Marklin_37538


Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 951
Location: ,
Marklin 3-rail is better than 2-rail
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Offline Marty  
#39 Posted : 12 May 2016 00:55:48(UTC)
Marty

United States   
Joined: 29/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 272
Location: USA
My dad started with Märklin in 1962. I've played with it since then. In 1970, there was a new book in our public library on model railroading called "The World of Model Trains" by Guy R. Williams. As a boy I thumbed through the book, looking at all the various pictures, and was thrilled when I saw a color centerfold of a huge Märklin layout. The M-track was immediately recognizable. The book didn't really have any specific information about the layout, but I was just amazed at how big and colorful the layout was with all Faller models, and complete with catenary, too.

Now, fast forward to the internet age: I was amazed again to find this layout on the internet, and to learn that it still exists and is providing entertainment to the public! Here is the link to the Frickenschmidt Modellbahn travelling layout:


http://www.modelleisenbahnlehrschau.de/

Long live Märklin!

Marty
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Offline Armando  
#40 Posted : 12 May 2016 04:26:44(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post


Instead of just focusing on the toy part of the market, they should try to maximize the options.

Regards

Mike C


Mike, you couldn't have said this better! I fully concur with you.
Best regards,
Armando García

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Offline mike c  
#41 Posted : 12 May 2016 06:47:19(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I have met a fair share of 2-rail users with whom (corrected) I absolutely nothing in common


You have to be careful when dealing with 2 Rail DC modellers because their polarity might be inverted Blink LOL

Regards

Mike C



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Offline Minok  
#42 Posted : 12 May 2016 22:35:14(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I have met a fair share of 2-rail users with whom (corrected) I absolutely nothing in common


You have to be careful when dealing with 2 Rail DC modellers because their polarity might be inverted Blink LOL

Regards

Mike C



But at least they are relatively consistent.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline I_love_Marklin_37538  
#43 Posted : 13 May 2016 00:04:15(UTC)
I_love_Marklin_37538


Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 951
Location: ,
Also if you think Marklin is alone in the 3-rail HO Scale market, some Japanese model train makers I.E Tomix, Kato, Tenshodo and etc are also looking at making Japanese Prototypes available to the 3-Rail market
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Offline Goofy  
#44 Posted : 14 May 2016 07:04:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Is it time for Marklin to abandon the puko to survive in the model train world or will the puko help Marklin in it's survival?
The Pukos help Märklin to survive.

Those who abandon the Pukos can buy Märklin quality in Trix boxes.
Trix is not overwhelmingly successful in H0 gauge.


Trix are forcement by off Märklin personal,by build locomotives like this and the decoder is not really good.
Better if Trix did changed out the decoder to ESU decoder with the power cap.
But Trix locomotives do really works good too.
But it´s only dreams...
Better is to choice ESU which works excellent with two rails.
I did decides to keep on with the two rail system and DCC.
It works fine.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#45 Posted : 15 May 2016 09:41:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
When i did used Märklin layout with the K tracks,there was some trouble with the contact.
The problems are stud contact and feeder clip underneath the K tracks.(if you ballast pro and use water glue)
The other problem are the rail,it´s made of stainless steel.
They oxid a lot!

If i decides to test another way,i would choice Peco electrofrog code100 and nickel silver stud contact.
There you have good track!
But it´s much more work to lay them.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline river6109  
#46 Posted : 15 May 2016 10:19:44(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
When i did used Märklin layout with the K tracks,there was some trouble with the contact.
The problems are stud contact and feeder clip underneath the K tracks.(if you ballast pro and use water glue)
The other problem are the rail,it´s made of stainless steel.
They oxid a lot!

If i decides to test another way,i would choice Peco electrofrog code100 and nickel silver stud contact.
There you have good track!
But it´s much more work to lay them.


Very true Anders, I have experienced it over the years some are ok but than there other sections which have lost contact (feeder clip) and especially as you've pointed out when ballasting the track (water based wood glue).
one way of overcoming the problem is solder all the tracks together but this in itself is a job and a half. and not very practical.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline baggio  
#47 Posted : 15 May 2016 15:10:01(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
The Fiat Mirafiori,would you buy it now?



YES! I love its looks. Flapper


BUT, it would have to be made in Japan since Fiat stands for: FIx All The Time. Cursing

Offline baggio  
#48 Posted : 15 May 2016 15:40:08(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Kimball, you need to watch that BBC series (at least the first 15 minute segment) about model trains and how the first British models were explicitlymarketed as being "model trains" and not "toy trains" - there were targeted at adults with disposable income... like us I bet. :)


I found that part of the documentary VERY interesting; it made me realize that even TODAY the fans of model trains are divided between those for whom these trains are a simple hobby, just for the fun of running trains AND those more serious for whom it is not really a hobby, but an art - wanting to reproduce in a small scale the prototypes. In fact, some of the latter fans hardly run the trains for fear of damaging/devaluing them. The latter are collectors and may even hope to make money someday from selling the collection.

Obviously, I belong to the former category, but I know that many here belong to the latter.

For me, I would love it if Marklin made "D" (dual) tracks, that could accommodate BOTH 3 rail and 2 rail locos with smooth operation on turnouts for both types and ballasted. ThumpUp It's a pipe dream. Sad

K tracks come close but ... no cigars, unfortunately. Not ballasted, not smooth enough on turnouts and some 2 rail locos (and wagons) CRUSH against them as if against a brick wall and, obviously, come to a stop. Also, not all turnouts are suitable for 2 rail because some are not insulated inside and short the layout for 2 rail operation if used.

Result: I have two simple ovals, one inside the other - Marklin C track inside and Roco Geo track outside. Marklin is digital and 2 rail is analogue. I have a Multimaus that I do not use along with the Ice Train and a diesel loco that have a decoder inside - which I run in analogue mode - all of which came with a start set. The cost of digital 2 rail is too much for me and would reduce the pool of choice in locos around the world and manufacturers.

Have a good Sunday, everyone, from Toronto where it is snowing somewhere in the Greater Toronto Area with temperatures approaching zero with the windchill factor!!!! ThumbDown

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Offline SteamNut  
#49 Posted : 15 May 2016 16:52:30(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
A while back I posted a picture of some German track that looked like Marklin track with pukos (studs). Apparently sometimes the ties are secured in some locations to prevent shifting. If one looks enough one can find anything we do as modelers in the prototype world BigGrin
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#50 Posted : 15 May 2016 20:13:25(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
If one looks enough one can find anything we do as modelers in the prototype world BigGrin

So true. There is a prototype for everything. I some times disguise the pukos as an oil trace by making the track darker in the middle. Other times I think of them as the LZB-cable that you see on many modern German lines. Luckily there are many ways to deal with the pukos.

One thing I have come to realise, because I did tend to agree with Henrik at one point in time: After having seen so many layouts, 3-rail and 2-rail, and having taken part in so many operating sessions, I simply do not care about the pukos any more. It is just another way of picking up electricity. When the music plays, I do not think of it. I concentrate on the trains. That is the important part - and I love enjoying the fine scenery that the layout builder has created for his visitors to enjoy. Having less than a mm of pukos in the middle of a track going through a landscape that would have been created in the exact same way, had it been a 2-rail layout, simply does not get to me anymore. One of the finest layouts I have seen is a 3-rail layout, and I simply love the Märklin Fanclub Italia's modular layout, which I find insanely beautiful.

Also, I do not really like when people has to differentiate between toy trains and model trains. It is usually done with the purpose of differentiating themselves as being true railway modellers compared to other people. And usually, the definition of what it takes to be a true modeller is something that they themselves have defined. It is not like there is a global board of people deciding all these things. If somebody starts with that, I usually go: Is it a model? "Well... it is". Is it a model of a train? "Well, yes?". Good! Then it is a model train! If I were to build a model of a BR 01 in LEGO - it would be a model train. Because: It. Is. A. Model. Of. A. Train. Simple! Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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