Hi!

The Pukos help Märklin to survive.

Those who abandon the Pukos can buy Märklin quality in Trix boxes.
Trix is not overwhelmingly successful in H0 gauge.

I concur! BUT?.....End of the thread, we haven't even begun! Carlos don't spoil the debate!

Lol

Cheers,

Michel

No problem with the pukos!!!
Other than the advantages already pointed out, do you imagine the nightmare of converting your oldies to 2-rail operation?????
No way, 3-rail is here to stay.....

Who cares!?

I sure do not, especially if they make things more reliable which they do.



Not always, and for Marklin to change it would remove their point of difference. As Tom points out, we might as well buy Trix then.

Interesting though, you don't see the pukos on either Z or 1 Gauge.

There are several major advantages to AC vs DC (analog). In 3 rail AC systems, reverse loops are not an issue (as already mentioned several times). It is also possible to reverse the direction of a locomotive by voltage surge, unlike DC models where the polarity of the rails has to be inverted to accomplish the same. If a Maerklin locomotive is reversed in a blocked off section, it will continue to run in the same direction on the open network. Any locomotive on a DC network will run in the opposite direction once polarity has been reversed, so you cannot change the direction of just one locomotive, unless it is within a specific zone with separate circuit only.

The centre stud has improved in looks over the years and is less obvious than the older version. It's advantages far outweight it's disadvantages.

I, am a big fan of the Maerklin system. I may not be a big fan of everything that Maerklin does or makes. I prefer full length coaches to the scale length reduced models and oversimplified offerings. My biggest beef with the company is that they don't have a consistent policy. Some models are 1/87, others are 1:93.5 and yet others are in different scales to suit a particular model length. The models have offset bogie mounts, which have some advantages (e.g. reduced overhang and the ability to handle tighter radii).

What I want to see from Maerklin is a commitment to larger radii. The new curved switches are a great start, but they need to follow through so that R3, R4 and R5 can be connected.
Once that is done, I will be able to fully enjoy operating my Maerklin system loks with the exact scale coaches and cars.

Instead of just focusing on the toy part of the market, they should try to maximize the options.
Many people might choose other than Maerklin if their local model train group or layout has chosen 2 rail DC
By keeping all of their potential customers in mind, Maerklin can remain relevant and a player for a longer period of time.

Regards

Mike C

Pukos are a way of life,Marklin would not be Marklin without them.

Nevertheless,the world around us is constantly changing in every respect.
As a marketeer working for a commercially operated company you need to be mindful of that and adjust your productrange when the need arises.
I used to drive SAAB cars in my younger years because i liked to drive something special,how foolish i was.
We all know what happened with the SAAB car division.
Fiat once sold a car called Mirafiori,a car which should last a lifetime,the only problem being that buyers do not want the same car for the rest of their life!

Marklin cannot possibly discard the pukos because that would leave countless 3-railers (having AC locomotives) out in the cold.
On the other hand they have done a wise thing to copy their rolling stock for Trix 2-rail DC,so that they can have the best of both worlds.

In my humble opinion the pukos are not so much the problem for Marklin,but the pricesetting is.
There comes a moment in time that premium pricing no longer works when other brandnames offer at least equal value for money.
Why buy a SAAB (having a 2 ltr Triumph engine) when you can buy a VW Golf which is better equipped?

The Fiat Mirafiori,would you buy it now?

https://upload.wikimedia...131_S_Mirafiori_1600.jpg

You could always go with Marklin Hamo which is dc and their Trix dc track is the same type as c track I think

"The-Marklin-Puko-Contact-Challange-DEBATE, Should Marklin go 2 rail for it's survival" by Michel.

Member partipants; HO, carlos-rivas-16752, Danlake, franciscohg, Alsterstreek, petestra, Mike c, river6109, NS1200, PhillipL and MalinAC.

After being disappointed with some trivial issues with Marklin's K track Double Slip Switch PUKOS I thought to reach out and find out what your thoughts were about the PUKOS! I was thinking is 2 rail any better?

"Thank you all for proving that constructive dialogue works. I have the marklin-users.net community right in front of me and I'm going use it (YOU) for learning, and yes with more learning I can unquestionably say that the PUKOS are the identity and the strengths of the Marklin brand. 

 I would like to thank all of you for the your comments on this post. They are all thought provoking and sincere. What I have learnt is how compassionate we all are when it come to Marklin.

Sincerely,

Michel

I wholeheartedly agree with NS1200 - Maerklin: the dream will live on!

Edited by user 09 May 2016 01:15:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The Pukos are what gives M its USP. I wouldn't want them to forget 3 rail AC fans.

I agree with NS1200 in that now M have Trix for 2 rail fans then they have the best of both worlds.

Regarding quality then M must up their game to warrant the premium pricing or consider levelling with competitors.

I would buy a new Fiat especially the 132 as they were a great car to drive. I am not a fan of "moderns". They are bland and most are fwd. BMW for one offer a restoration service for owners to keep their older cars on the road. I have seen an E3 and 2002 done rough them and they are wonderful.
If I could afford it my 1982 323 would go back to them for a rebuild.

Out of my fleet of 5 cars I have a 34, 27 and 26 year old and then 4 and 6. Which ones do I enjoy most - yep the older ones.

So, returning to trains I would love to see M offer some analogue stuff again or offer a factory refit service to maintain e older ones.

Just my ramblings.

Mike

Thank you for your ramblings.
I think Marklin are caught in the informatica trap,like so many other companies.
Productioncosts are rising,so are productprices,upto a level where potential customers will say no thank you.

About Beamers:i would love to own a fully restored BMW 315!



Cheers,

Paul

Absolutely right, Ray. When I was around 9 my dad bought me a Tyco DC HO set here in the states. It was terrible. It never stayed on the tracks

and the quality was crap, even back then in 1962. When I saw the beautiful display layout that Märklin had at the famous FAO Schwartz store

in Manhattan, NYC I was hooked and there was never any going back for me. Peter.

I tihnk that -for all reasons and purposes- Märklin has already gone 100% in on 2-rail H0. There is hardly any new M-product launched, that doesnt come in an equivalent Trix version at the same time, or shortly after.
Even the track-pieces are similar, and you dont get the terrible-looking (for some) pukos with the Trix-track.

The argument of locos going in opposite or same direction is only valid for analog operation. 2-rail digital locomotives can do the same as 3-rail ones.

For analog locomotives, the direction reverser relay gives advantages, but does also cause problems; Like the loco shooting ahead with 500km/h, when you try to give the reverse-24V-impulse, and the spring prevents the relay from engaging.
The ease of return-loop constructions is paid for by the hassle with the troublesome slider, which gets easily bent, makes noise and can cause shorts (especially when running through points, right ;-) )

For me, the major advantage is the ease with wich we can make detection-points, although one must admid that the 2-rail world has really simple electronic modules for detection too, but still the simplicity of the 3rd rail cant be beaten here!

In a modern world with many other high-tech model railroad producers, the ONLY thing that set M apart, is its dedication to, -and control of, the 3-rail world. If there was only a 2-rail word to be enjoyed, M. would probably have ceased to exist already. In the 3-rail world they are still king-of-the-hill. It doenst even matter if other maufactures can do certain things better. For overall 3-rail you still have to rely on M.

Whether the pukos bothers you or not is purely a personal matter, but I am convinced that a great amount of "denial" is present when people claim that "they dont see them", yet same people write page-long essays about the wrong type of very-tiny windshield wipters, or other nietenzhäler details impossible to see without a magnifying glass... (Sorry, I had to say this, go on and hate me! ;-)
There is aboslutly NO reason for living with the pukos -AND having to pay a premium price for the tracks!- if it wasnt for the fact that we have already invested a lot of money in the brand and system, making a switch-over economically difficult. Some might prefer the look-and-feel of the M.-products. Other are here for vintage modelling or re-living childhood memories/dreams. But claiming some kind of overall superiority of the 3-rail system is just plain WRONG (IMHO of course!). And I think we have proven beyond doubt, that there arent any superior manufacturer-quality either!

So... I think that M. staying with 3-rail is more a political business choice. During almost a 100 years, they have built up a standard and user-base, wich holds 50% of the home marked. And M. controls this standard!
I repeat; Märklin is basically offereing everything in 2-rail too, under the Trix name. But in FIERCE competition with the rest of the manufactureres. And it is NOT selling in great numbers among the 2-rail users...

Turnouts and crossings aside, IMO pukos aren't that bad. I grew up with M and then K track so I can't deny I'm at least slightly biased. But for me it is more so about the quality of loks and cars and for that reason, I could never see myself switching to another brand to avoid pukos.

I don't know if I would start with 3-rail again if I would start today.

MiWuLa started with 3-rail track because they thought it had less contact problems.
Recent regions were built with 2-rail track. And they are about to replace 3-rail track with 2-rail track over time.

I think much more people switch from 3-rail to 2-rail than the other way around.


Märklin has the nostalgic touch if you played with Märklin in your childhood - and the legendary quality if you buy older stuff from eBay.

I don't like the weird pukos, I like solid center rail much better.

Marco

I once had a good-sized collection of VERY highly detailed U.S. prototype models, many of them hand-made brass imports, with the rest built from very high quality kits. I never fitted any of them with decoders, preferring analog. Why? One of the things I do to earn money is electronics repair. Who wants to spend "Hobby time" doing the same stuff they do at work? At the time I decided to go with Märklin, if you wanted a decoder fitted, it had to be hand-wired in, and 90% of the time you had to totally disassemble a locomotive and contrive a way to isolate the motor from the frame. THEN came the tedious programming.

Even running them analog, I never built a real layout because analog or digital, wiring turnouts (especially a complicated configuration such as a switching yard or passenger station) was nearly torture. So, my beautiful models ran only on occasion, on a loop, or straight line of track. After awhile, the nostalgia bug kicked in, and I started playing with Lionel O gauge again. I had fun running trains, not worrying if the number of rivets was correct, and was easily able to build complicated switching setups because it was all 3-rail.

It was not too long after though, that I began missing the detailing, and the modeling. I had always found European trains more esthetically pleasing (Especially German, I'm a sucker for red wheels I guess), and there was a new dealer nearby that sold Märklin. I went to have a look. I had avoided Märklin in the past because of the too-deep flanges, and sometimes "crude" detail, but the ease of running things on Lionel 3-rail softened my attitude on such things. Upon arriving at the dealer, I was pleasantly surprised. The too-large flanges were still there, but were far less noticeable because the wheels were now blackened, and the newer models had a MUCH higher level of delicate detail. This happened to be not too long after the first Mobile Station had come out. I didn't have digital in mind really, but I saw how beautifully the new Märklin digital models ran and was impressed. Then the clincher: The dealer showed me how the mobile station worked. Wait, you mean I DON'T have to do a bunch of cryptic programming? The decoders are already installed? All I have to do to add a new locomotive is call it up from the database? AND, on top of all that, the ease of wiring a three-rail layout? Sign me up!

Almost all the U.S. prototype stuff is gone, except for two brass locomotives I couldn't bear to part with, and I have a sizable collection of Märklin models now. The layout is disassembled currently, because plans for a newer and better one are being made. I will NOT give up my 3-rail!!!!

Now, if Märklin could just somehow come up with a way to make C-trak flextrack!

[EDIT]: In other words, the pukos could be painted neon orange and I wouldn't care!

Kimball, you need to watch that BBC series (at least the first 15 minute segment) about model trains and how the first British models were explicitly marketed as being "model trains" and not "toy trains" - there were targeted at adults with disposable income... like us I bet. :)

I'm not bothered by the visual aesthetics of the puko's, compared to the many other things that distract from the authentic look of the layout vs the real world, the puko is the least of my problems (backdrop, ground around tracks, buildings, lighting (ie the sun) , streets and street/rail crossings, etc).

The acoustics of the pukos is the one thing I'd love to improve upon or eliminate. There is something nice about a 2 rail DC/DCC system just running on wheels without that scraping of pukos against sliders I do find nice.

Ok, and the other thing is train lighting in the cars - having to have an additional pickup in the car or dealing with the current power conducting couplings is a complexity - though with todays circuitry and LEDs that can be nursed past glitches with capacitors, the conducting couplings are not such a big deal anymore..

Spot on!

I live in Denmark, and I have made friends from far away places as well. No one in Germany yet - oddly enough. Whenever I meet a fellow "Märklinist" I can always find something to talk about, and I can always enjoy another person's collection - perhaps including models that I never got myself. I think this way of collecting is unique to the Märklin community, and being part of the community and meeting people adds huge value to - at least - my hobby.

I have met a fair share of 2-rail users with which I absolutely nothing in common (except for two words: Model Railway). With a Märklinist it is different. It just is. I am lacking words to describe it.

I am one of the few (I think) that collects Märklin through Trix. The majority of my friends run 2-rail, which is why I made that decision years ago. My upcoming layout will feature a 3-rail loop, so my older models can get their exercise. Welcome is also any fellow Märklinist's model that may stop by (bringing its owner - of course)!

LOL! Post no. 1000 - Hooray!

Marklin 3-rail is better than 2-rail

Mike, you couldn't have said this better! I fully concur with you.

But at least they are relatively consistent.

Trix are forcement by off Märklin personal,by build locomotives like this and the decoder is not really good.
Better if Trix did changed out the decoder to ESU decoder with the power cap.
But Trix locomotives do really works good too.
But it´s only dreams...
Better is to choice ESU which works excellent with two rails.
I did decides to keep on with the two rail system and DCC.
It works fine.

Very true Anders, I have experienced it over the years some are ok but than there other sections which have lost contact (feeder clip) and especially as you've pointed out when ballasting the track (water based wood glue).
one way of overcoming the problem is solder all the tracks together but this in itself is a job and a half. and not very practical.

John

I found that part of the documentary VERY interesting; it made me realize that even TODAY the fans of model trains are divided between those for whom these trains are a simple hobby, just for the fun of running trains AND those more serious for whom it is not really a hobby, but an art - wanting to reproduce in a small scale the prototypes. In fact, some of the latter fans hardly run the trains for fear of damaging/devaluing them. The latter are collectors and may even hope to make money someday from selling the collection.

Obviously, I belong to the former category, but I know that many here belong to the latter.

For me, I would love it if Marklin made "D" (dual) tracks, that could accommodate BOTH 3 rail and 2 rail locos with smooth operation on turnouts for both types and ballasted. It's a pipe dream.

K tracks come close but ... no cigars, unfortunately. Not ballasted, not smooth enough on turnouts and some 2 rail locos (and wagons) CRUSH against them as if against a brick wall and, obviously, come to a stop. Also, not all turnouts are suitable for 2 rail because some are not insulated inside and short the layout for 2 rail operation if used.

Result: I have two simple ovals, one inside the other - Marklin C track inside and Roco Geo track outside. Marklin is digital and 2 rail is analogue. I have a Multimaus that I do not use along with the Ice Train and a diesel loco that have a decoder inside - which I run in analogue mode - all of which came with a start set. The cost of digital 2 rail is too much for me and would reduce the pool of choice in locos around the world and manufacturers.

Have a good Sunday, everyone, from Toronto where it is snowing somewhere in the Greater Toronto Area with temperatures approaching zero with the windchill factor!!!!

So true. There is a prototype for everything. I some times disguise the pukos as an oil trace by making the track darker in the middle. Other times I think of them as the LZB-cable that you see on many modern German lines. Luckily there are many ways to deal with the pukos.

One thing I have come to realise, because I did tend to agree with Henrik at one point in time: After having seen so many layouts, 3-rail and 2-rail, and having taken part in so many operating sessions, I simply do not care about the pukos any more. It is just another way of picking up electricity. When the music plays, I do not think of it. I concentrate on the trains. That is the important part - and I love enjoying the fine scenery that the layout builder has created for his visitors to enjoy. Having less than a mm of pukos in the middle of a track going through a landscape that would have been created in the exact same way, had it been a 2-rail layout, simply does not get to me anymore. One of the finest layouts I have seen is a 3-rail layout, and I simply love the Märklin Fanclub Italia's modular layout, which I find insanely beautiful.

Also, I do not really like when people has to differentiate between toy trains and model trains. It is usually done with the purpose of differentiating themselves as being true railway modellers compared to other people. And usually, the definition of what it takes to be a true modeller is something that they themselves have defined. It is not like there is a global board of people deciding all these things. If somebody starts with that, I usually go: Is it a model? "Well... it is". Is it a model of a train? "Well, yes?". Good! Then it is a model train! If I were to build a model of a BR 01 in LEGO - it would be a model train. Because: It. Is. A. Model. Of. A. Train. Simple!