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Offline Alsterstreek  
#1 Posted : 15 September 2013 00:49:09(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Good evening,

Moving houses again soon... And Slumburg-Alltoofar will probably not make it into the new home. Probable scenario is an available surface of 183 x 105 cm in laundry room. Thus, I began brainstorming. Construction will be "foam-based". The result is a tri-level amalgamation of all past layouts I built over the past 10 years. Since this is difficult to digest from a single drawing, I attach two separate plans: once for lower levels 0 and 1 plus once for upper level 2 - see screenshots.

Cheers - Ak Blink

Edited by user 21 June 2014 01:01:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Riv1unten.png
Riv1oben.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline seatrains  
#2 Posted : 15 September 2013 19:27:26(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: Seattle, WA
AK, I will miss Slumburg. You have done a great job working in a small space. Will it be attacked by rockets like Dummtor? BigGrin
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#3 Posted : 15 September 2013 22:52:22(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Maybe a comet shower or raining rocks this time ... Crying
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
Offline petestra  
#4 Posted : 15 September 2013 23:10:31(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,512
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Looks like a-lot of fun in a tight space, AK. I'm sure you'll have lots of fun building

this layout. Cheers,Peter ThumpUp Smile
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Offline BrandonVA  
#5 Posted : 16 September 2013 15:50:48(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
You certainly have a gift for fitting the maximum amount of excitement and features in the smallest space. I am fascinated by this style of layout building. I look forward to this new version....I hope your move goes well!

-Brandon
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#6 Posted : 29 December 2013 19:57:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Hi there,

And now for something completely different.

On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Fehmarn Sound Bridge in Northern Germany and inspired by the outcome of the prototype post "Is this prototypical?" (https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/yaf_postst28881findunread_Is-this-prototypical.aspx#post433921) as well as by lessons learned by the construction of the small "Thunder Mountain" layout, I got another layout idea. The Fehmarn Sound Bridge is part of the Vogelfluglinie (German) or Fugleflugtslinjen (Danish) - literally: bird flight line - transport corridor between Copenhagen,Denmark, and Hamburg, Germany, which is a non-electrified single track mainline North of Lübeck. The core of the connection is the 19-kilometre (12 mi) combined car and train ferry link between Denmark and Germany. This sounds promising, does it not?

Please allow me to focus on international passenger trains on the German side. Before the opening of the bridge, an international train ferry service linked Grossenbrode quay on the German mainland with Denmark. E.g. the ferry "Danmark" had only a single track holding up to four coaches. Later ferries had three tracks which could hold three times four coaches. Thus, longer trains had to be broken up. During the 1950ies/1960ies, BR 50 and BR 03 steamers pulled a mix of national and international trains. After the construction of the bridge, the ferry called the new port of Puttgarden on the island of Fehmarn instead. Subsequently, DB class 221 diesels prevailed. The following international passenger rains were operated in the summer of 1965 (http://www.bahnen-im-norden.de/jalbum/vogelflug.html#Reisezug):

Nord-West-Express, Hoek van Holland - København (through coaches to/from Amsterdam, Oostende, Stockholm)
Paris-Skandinavien-Express Paris - København ((through coaches to/from Stockholm)
København-Express Hamburg - København
München-Express München - København (through coaches to/from Wien/Vienna)
Alpen-Express Roma - Brenner - København (through coaches to/from Venezia)
Nord-Express Paris - København
Schweiz-Express Basel - København (through coaches to/from Milano, Roma, Chur)
Italia-Express Roma - Gotthard - København (through coaches to/from Ventimiglia, Wien/Vienna)
Holland-Skandinavien-Express Hoek van Holland - København
Hamburg-Express Hamburg - København
Wiking-Express Hamburg - Hässleholm
Hispania-Express Port Bou/Cerbere - Genève - København
D289/290 Garmisch-Partenkirchen - København

As demonstrated in above mentioned prototype post, in 1978 there were short two-coach IC trains pulled by a DSB NOHAB and a DB class 221, respectively, as well as pure French SNCF trains pulled by Danish and German diesels, respectively.

Nowadays, regular passenger service (no more freight traffic) is offered by DB four car ICE TD high-speed DMU (formerly served by DSB IC3 units) boarding the ferry, while DB twin-car commuter service DMUs and seasonal double traction DB class 218 IC trains terminate at the German ferry port.

In a nutshell: big steamers, large red diesels, international mix of coaches, mostly short trains, single track main line without overhead wire, flat green landscape. Say no more, say no more, say no more: This is the ideal excuse for my below - surprise, surprise - compact layout and operations concept.

Now, the basic layout idea is to have a quayside scene with a mock-up train ferry in the background of a quay, which serves as a fiddle yard for a short international train. To the left the ferry port is linked to the single-track mainline - set in a green flat landscape, which has a gently swinging large radius curve. Northbound express trains arriving via the - fictional - lower wye track (which the former Grossenbrode ferry port on the mainland actually had), and the loco backs the train onto the ferry; subsequently, the loco uncouples and drives to the quay. Once the ferry "returns" from Denmark, the reverse operation is carried out for the southbound train, which eventually disappears for its long trip via the - fictional - upper wye leg. The front sidings are for a commuter train or serves as layover track for freight cars. When riding the mainline, the hidden loop extends travel time and allows to conceals the train, adding a level of realism and avoiding the train to chase its own tail. Trains can be short and colorful: Anything goes on 180 cm x 90 / 40 cm - see attached track plan !

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: To be continued / elaborated...
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Ferry0.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 29 December 2013 21:46:31(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Hi there,

Here comes phase 2:

In the tunnel, which is representing the large outside world, two short sidings are added. One for a German loco and one for a Danish loco. While the German consist is circling, the Danish loco, e.g. a DSB NOHAB is hiding on tunnel siding 1. The German loco, e.g. a DB V200, backs the train onto the ferry and disappears in the tunnel and is parked on tunnel siding 2. Now we pretend that the ferry arrived in Denmark. The NOHAB appears outside and pulls the train from the ferry. After some time the Danish train returns from Copenhagen, backs the train onto the ferry, and goes into hiding again. The ferry reaches Germany, the V200 re-appears to pick up the train etc etc.

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: To be continued / elaborated...
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Ferry0a.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Yumgui  
#8 Posted : 29 December 2013 21:49:01(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,657
Location: Paris, France
Man, this compact C-track stuff + semi-prototypical overlay is quite dense ... I've even lost count of the number of layouts you are working on atm ...

I'm sure the kids get it faster than I do ... ;)

Only photos and further documentation will allow me to wrap this new concept around my feeble head ^^ !

Go for it,

Y ThumpUp

PS: "Now we pretend that the ferry arrived in Denmark..." <-- LOL
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on : http://www.arep.fr/en/#/welcome
Inspired by : http://www.nakedmarklin.com/ ... I am not alone in this universe, phew.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Yumgui
Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 30 December 2013 00:00:16(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Howdy y`awl,

I found a historic Wikimedia Commons photo showing the single track train ferry "Danmark" in the Danish port of Gedser - see attached. The vessel is docked so tightly in the basin that for the sake of realism it is not necessary to model a depressed port basin. This makes the job even easier - and less depressing (pun intended). And it should ease the pain for some people with photographic memory to follow the thread.

Gr. - Ak LOL
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Fähranlagen_Gedser_mit_Fährschiff_Danmark.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 30 December 2013 09:32:41(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Hi there,

Here comes phase 3 - see track plan:

It seems as if the bending widely accepted concepts of space and time is too overwhelming. So, let us keep the location in one country. RollEyes

By inflating the measures of the loop module to 100 x 140 cm:
(1) A modest fiddle yard could be installed in the tunnel; each siding could hold one loco plus four 27 cm coaches, allowing to have meets in the tunnel or even simulate loads in / empties out freight operations;
(2) a outer "ring siding" could be added, giving more operational potential.

(3) By stretching the ferry port leg from 40 x 60 cm to 40 x 145 cm, longer trains could be run and a real wye could be built, allowing to turn steamers and sending trains into both directions. In general, the layout would obtain a more grown-up appeal (at the cost of space though).

Cheers - Ak Smile

P.S.: To be continued / elaborated...
P.P.S.: I added a photo of the steamer "Danmark" (single-track train ferry) for the ones requiring a visual stimulus.Laugh
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Ferry2.png
FS_Danmark1922a.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline utkan  
#11 Posted : 30 December 2013 10:29:58(UTC)
utkan

Turkey   
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,074
Location: Istanbul,
Minimum Space vs. Maximum Fun

....it suits the layout 100 %.....BigGrin ThumpUp ThumpUp

Happy New Year, Ak.....Smile

mehmet
Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 30 December 2013 12:03:39(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Good morning - phase 4:

A decent and self-respecting man can never have enough sidings. By slightly enlarging the ferry port leg to 50 x 145 cm and by replacing a normal by a three-way layout a couple of sidings can be added. Good use could be made of the outer loop siding as switching lead - see track plan.

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: I add another visual stimulus - see historic Wikimedia Commons photo of DMU leaving a more modern ferry in Grossenbrode.

Edited by user 30 December 2013 19:41:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Ferry3.png
VT_12_Großenbrode.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 30 December 2013 23:54:06(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Hi there,

Here comes phase 5 - split the train, double the fun:

By inflating the loop module a little bit in lower right hand side and adding 10 cm to the front of the ferry port leg, a double slip switch could be added in front of the ferry access bridge, thus allowing to have a double-track "mock-up" ferry. Further, adding a switch plus siding here and there would add versatility - see attached track plan.

Some photos of the pre-bridge period: http://www.burg-fehmarn....ssenbrode---gedser.html: Photo #11 shows a larger ferry with two train heads (actually having three tracks with the middle track being concealed by the the trains). On photo 10 the three tracks are clearly visible.

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: Now I really ran out of ideas.
P.P.S.: Another source of inspiration in this context - A small layout project with a working small train ferry based on a very large turntable, much like a kitchen Lazy Susan: "The basic idea is a half round (180 degree) movement for the ferry with the water surface painted on an 80cm diameter disc to which the ferry is fastened. Half of the disc is always under the layout surface, and the edges of the stream are camouflaged with scenery." http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page80/
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Ferry4.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#14 Posted : 30 December 2013 23:59:33(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Oh yes, and some bonus photos from Wikimedia Commons of single-track train ferries in the past and today.

Happy New Year - Ak
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Prins_Christian_1903.jpg
ICE_605_fährt_auf_FS_%22Deutschland%22.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline LeoArietis  
#15 Posted : 01 January 2014 14:54:43(UTC)
LeoArietis

Sweden   
Joined: 07/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Hi there,

Here comes phase 5 - split the train, double the fun:

By inflating the loop module a little bit in lower right hand side and adding 10 cm to the front of the ferry port leg, a double slip switch could be added in front of the ferry access bridge, thus allowing to have a double-track "mock-up" ferry. Further, adding a switch plus siding here and there would add versatility - see attached track plan.

Some photos of the pre-bridge period: http://www.burg-fehmarn....ssenbrode---gedser.html: Photo #11 shows a larger ferry with two train heads (actually having three tracks with the middle track being concealed by the the trains). On photo 10 the three tracks are clearly visible.

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: Now I really ran out of ideas.
P.P.S.: Another source of inspiration in this context - A small layout project with a working small train ferry based on a very large turntable, much like a kitchen Lazy Susan: "The basic idea is a half round (180 degree) movement for the ferry with the water surface painted on an 80cm diameter disc to which the ferry is fastened. Half of the disc is always under the layout surface, and the edges of the stream are camouflaged with scenery." http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page80/


I really like that track-plan!
Current layout:
http://www.svensktmjforu.../index.php?topic=10990.0
The former project:
http://www.svensktmjforu...forum_posts.asp?TID=1097
With Pictures and trackplans, but in Swedish
Transitation-curves in C-track:
https://www.marklin-user...9-on-75-cm.aspx#post9281
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#16 Posted : 02 January 2014 14:39:08(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Good day,

Food for thought on 130x180 cm for out-of-the box thinking by another mind, or how flexible C track can be - see link:
http://imageshack.us/pho...s/195/cplan130180tx.jpg/

Cheers - Ak
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#17 Posted : 03 January 2014 16:28:40(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Good afternoon,

A perfect prototypical excuse for having mixed epochs and/or even continents represented on a small pike could be a railroad museum. Several US railroad museums are having a circuit of track for running trains in a continuous manner - aerial views:
- National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, Wisconsin:
http://www.bing.com/maps...e=15775236&encType=1
- Nevada State Railroad Museum, Carson City, Nevada:
http://www.bing.com/maps...ne=8836121&encType=1
- Colorado Railroad Museum, Golden, Colorado:
http://www.bing.com/maps...ne=8836121&encType=1

For C-track, this could be translated into the attached 35/95 x 175 cm (C-)track plan. For quick set-up a "flat mine" could serve well: either an electric M-track or a manual KIBRI turntable (the latter to be equipped with K-track).

A further, example is the mixed M- and C-track layout of a German gentleman: Starting point was a 120x120 cm C-track test circle which was subsequently equipped with a M-track turntable in the middle ( http://www.stummiforum.d...pic.php?f=64&t=84854 ) and grew slightly by two outer sidings and got a large backdrop ( http://www.stummiforum.d...amp;t=84854&start=25 ). The result allows for the display of a loco collection and the occasional running of trains, as well as for nice photographing: From the inside of the curve even coaches look nice.

Greetz - Ak BigGrin
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Mus.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#18 Posted : 27 February 2014 10:58:50(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
After a lot of theory, the example of two "circular" layouts (I) really built, the single level 2006-7 Foursquare Circles (95 x 95 cm) and the tri-level 2013-? Thunder Mountain (100 x 128 cm) - see pic.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
Kreisanlagen.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 30 March 2014 13:09:25(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
I found a recent German 120 x 220 cm interpretation for Maerklin track of an older U.S. design for a compact 4 x 8 ft urban layout for passenger and freight operations which requires access from the front and the rear. While the U.S. approach was for a "flattop" with a town on the center divider, the German is a bi-level one with an industrial area on the center divider. In both cases the front is dominated by a big city terminal for long distance and commuter passenger trains, while the back is centered about local industry tracks and a suburban passenger station. I would change the direction of the main station layover tracks to allow for commuting back and forth between front main station and back suburban station stub tracks, and I would optimize turnout positions to extend track lengths. It is not clear what the intention is regarding the right side. To be connected to close the oval? Connection to a hidden lower basement level with a shadow station or or even return loops to change the direction of trains?

Anyway, even with the flattop approach the layout has a big operating potential. Freight trains could originate on the elevated area, circle around once and end in the industrial are next to the suburban station and vice versa. Commuter trains could shuttle between suburban and main station stub tracks. Long distance passenger trains (e.g., a "double-headed" ICE) could leave the main station, zoom without stopping through the suburban station, stop and change direction in the far hidden curved tunnel, respectively, and return from the distant destination in order to terminate the journey in the main station. Or one could just play and let trains circle.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
urban 120x220.jpg
mtcfacop.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline BrandonVA  
#20 Posted : 04 April 2014 18:20:50(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post


Anyway, even with the flattop approach the layout has a big operating potential. Freight trains could originate on the elevated area, circle around once and end in the industrial are next to the suburban station and vice versa. Commuter trains could shuttle between suburban and main station stub tracks. Long distance passenger trains (e.g., a "double-headed" ICE) could leave the main station, zoom without stopping through the suburban station, stop and change direction in the far hidden curved tunnel, respectively, and return from the distant destination in order to terminate the journey in the main station. Or one could just play and let trains circle.


I love dense layouts with lots of station, siding and yard opportunities. I think using reverse/return loops at either end would make for more interesting operations, although also more complicated construction. A fiddle siding (or shadow station) could be incorporated on the reverse and return loops, accessed through the illustrated trap doors that would allow different trains to come and go. The upper(?) reverse loop (on the inside/right side) would potentially be the limiter for overall train length. However, based on the station and siding sizes, this would lend itself to operation of shorter consists IMHO. If it were to be US based I would try to extend this to a maximum to run longer trains.

-Brandon
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#21 Posted : 22 April 2014 00:15:19(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Brainstorming on 105 x 180 cm. Bi-level folded dogbone. Red = visible upper level and ramps), blue = hidden lower level.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
b1st.png
b1st-o.png
b1st-u.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#22 Posted : 27 April 2014 19:53:57(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
I cannot get this concept out of my head. For a long time I am planning to incorporate it, and maybe I will do so once I have to retouch or rebuild a layout for any reason. It is a space saving idea to combine long layover tracks with a "dog bone end blob". The mainline swinging over the stub tracks will obscure the ends of the latter, thus giving the illusion of more depth. There are R9 easements at the beginning of visible curves and R1 curves are almost entirely hidden; ruling grade is three percent. Sticking to the limits of a 100 x 180 cm baseboard, the two inner stub tracks can hold five to six US streamliner coaches or nine to ten US 50 ft box cars. Outer stub tracks are for engines and cabooses. Increasing the baseboard dimensions by five centimeters would allow to add another stub track. When working the stub tracks, the outer mainline track serves as switching lead. In that case of an oncoming train circling on the mainline, it would be switched to the inner track, thus returning on its own path (see plan 1). Eventually, the train would need to return to the outer track at the top of the grade.

(One option is shown in plan 2, which proposes the second "dog bone end blob" on top of the lower one, thus closing the circle; the latter is not satisfactory enough for me, since I prefer a longer mainline run, but the option reflects the intended operation concept.)

Unsure Wink RollEyes
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
cl1a.png
cl2.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline BrandonVA  
#23 Posted : 29 April 2014 20:29:15(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Be careful, if I had a bit more C track I may give it a shot :P
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Offline Irish Rail  
#24 Posted : 30 April 2014 10:20:05(UTC)
Irish Rail

Ireland   
Joined: 04/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: West Cork
Have been watching your ideas with interest as I have exactly this problem - how to fit an "interesting" layout into a confined area. In my case max is 2.4m*1.2m (slightly larger than your ideas here).

The latest version looks interesting, but one thing confuses me - the two red arrows point to "hidden reverse loop" but the tracks seem to end. Are you suggesting that they be connected by another loop? There doesn't seem to be sufficient height clearance on the at the arrow on the left. Or maybe I have misunderstood.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 30 April 2014 12:47:27(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Thank you for the flowers.

Indeed I am suggesting to connect the "loose ends" to another loop. I do have a "full" track plan reflecting that, but did not post it since it looks confusing with the overlaying layers (one blob above the other). There should be enough clearance between the layers, namely a minimum of 7.5 cm for diesel and steam operations. Of course the spots where one track dives under another are crucial and critical. Layout construction experience proved that this manageable. In the worst case, one track with a larger slope has to be designated for descending trains only, while the other one with a lower grade is reserved for ascending trains. In any case the grade on the outer "R3" curve is below 4%. The concept is meant for right hand traffic. So, for left hand traffic the layout needs to be mirrored. The stub track in the middle of the upper blob is optional. It might be used to pretend the throat of an urban station; when extended under the "city", it will be long enough to hold three coaches.

I attach an embellished track plan which might clarify.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
add.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#26 Posted : 08 June 2014 21:03:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Something new for the archive. I recall a quote of a German railroad employee cum model railroader who - when asked what layout design he favors after all those year on the real thing - stated anything with long runs without any turnout. Now, I spent the better part of the day for a feasibility study of what a MRR aficincado with space limitations can expect on a L-shaped surface of 190 x 190 x 110 cm in this regard. This is meant for the individual who wants to see train(s) running. There is hardly any space for sidings. However - and I deem this to be spectacular and impossible to top - it is possible to squeeze 30 m of main line into this concept. The approach is a twisted dogbone on four (!) levels with at least R2 radius curves in visible areas (with one exception where the viewer looks from below into the inside of short stretch of a R1 radius curve) with easements and a two track shadow station in the lower balloon. It is intended to minimize track hidden in tunnels. Therefore, parts of the reverse balloons are left in the open where socially acceptable. The design of the shadow station can be improved (e.g., track length). Again, this is meant to be a feasibility study to test the limits... Let us start with the confusing view of all levels - see pic.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
ultimo=all.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#27 Posted : 08 June 2014 21:05:48(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Here are the lower levels 1 and 2.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
ulitimo-u.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#28 Posted : 08 June 2014 21:07:27(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
And here the upper levels 3 and 4.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
ultimo-o-r.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#29 Posted : 08 June 2014 21:09:34(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
And finally the embellished version showing visible areas only. Note that the ruling grade never exceeds 3% and that - as usual - the M* C track geometry is "ignored" for the sake of aesthetics.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
ultimo-vis-col.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#30 Posted : 16 June 2014 00:13:45(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
I reworked the latter approach based on:

- my desire to transform the shadow station into a visible station area serving as parking zone for trains;

- the fact that the local hardware store has 100 x 200 cm foam boards in stock which I could "sandwich" into a 200 x 200 cm baseboard, from which a square is to be cut out in order to obtain an L-shaped base.

Here is a pic of the carnival of the worms.
Blue = lower levels 1 and 2
Red = upper levels 3 and 4
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22all0.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#31 Posted : 16 June 2014 00:16:34(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Lower levels 1 and 2. Red = crossing of level 2 above level 1.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22gu0.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#32 Posted : 16 June 2014 00:23:01(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
The urban station area and the monumental landscape are to be separated by a high scenic divider screen. On the station area it would serve as backdrop for urban canyons and on the landscape side for "real" canyons or badlands. When working either side, the respective other side is out of side. This requires to have access to the layout from three sides though.

On the side of the city, the elevated urban building flats behind the free standing station building - which again is sitting above the passenger station platforms - need to be high enough to hide the curve tunnel leading from level 2 to level 3 on the badlands side. Station tracks 5 and 6 are situated under tall warehouses or office building leaning against the scenic divider. On the badlands side, a creek separates the tracks on level 1 on the right side and level 2 on the level side. Tunnels are covered by eroded hills with sparse vegetation. Starting at 2 cm in the middle of the layout, the mainline gains altitude via the partly tunneled loop on the right bank of the creek before crossing its own path an following the left bank of the creek; then, follows a tunnel (which is actually under the city) before reappearing over the creek gap in order to cross the level 2 tracks at and disappearing again on the right bank; after another 180 degrees turn, a tall bridge at the end of the tunnel leads above the valley until at an altitude of 26 cm above the creek level (or 24 cm above level 1), the top tunnel on the left bank marks the summit of "Rotten Pass" on the "Fanta Se" mainline. From the station to the summit it is a 15 m run, thus a 30 m round trip. Because of the stretched grades, the ruling grade is kept around 2.5 percent.

See embellished track plan showing visible tracks and envisaged scenicking.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22kosmo0.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#33 Posted : 16 June 2014 00:28:46(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Oh yes, and the upper levels 3 and 4, too.
Red = level 4 crossing above level 3
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22g0.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#34 Posted : 16 June 2014 23:00:34(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
And now in 3D!RollEyes

I built a 1/10 scale model of the layout trackage (thus 1/870 so to speak).
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
a.png
b.png
c.png
d.png
e.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#35 Posted : 21 June 2014 01:01:02(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Another iteration of the lower level, improving appearance and functionality of the return loops. Yes, there are actually two balloons on the lower level linking Union Station to three destinations: two on the same level and Rotten Pass at the long end on level 4. The narrowed track distances require careful track laying of the shadow station area curves...
RollEyes

Edited by user 21 June 2014 09:41:19(UTC)  | Reason: Dyslexia

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22gu1extr.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Janne75  
#36 Posted : 22 June 2014 08:59:00(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,571
Location: Finland
Hi Ak,

You are genius as you are able to plan so long tracks in many levels to such a limited space ThumpUp . This is very interesting layout plan. When it will be ready it will be almost impossible for people watching trains running to know and tell where trains will go next. This is good and keeps it interesting to watch. I have no skills to build such multi level layouts myself. How many meters of track there will be in total?

Keep up the good work! RollEyes

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 analog and digital layouts. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#37 Posted : 22 June 2014 19:40:39(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Thank you. Below is the XTrackCad part list (which is indicative only since experience shows that needs change during actual construction) for all four levels: Should be roughly 30 m of track.
Wink

Count | Description
------+-------------
7 | 24064
4 | 24077
2 | 24094
11 | 24107
3 | 24115
31 | 24130
12 | 24172
9 | 24188
2 | 24206
8 | 24207
5 | 24215
1 | 24224
2 | 24229
25 | 24230
13 | 24330
9 | 24430
4 | 24530
2 | 24612
6 | 24671
4 | 24672
10 | 24912
------+-------------

As pointed out earlier, the curves in the shadow station area are demanding, and only a hands-on test with coaches would show if it is really feasible to squeeze five circles in there. It is always possible to play tricks on the C track geometry, which is easier with parallel straight tracks than with parallel curved tracks.
Blink
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#38 Posted : 22 June 2014 19:56:42(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Oh, and another caveat: While allowing for long mainline runs of trains and up to three meter long spurs and sidings, I planned elevations and criss-crossing for diesel and steam operation. Employing catenary would either require to employ custom made solutions or slightly higher elevations, resulting in a little bit steeper slopes.
Glare
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline petestra  
#39 Posted : 22 June 2014 23:41:50(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,512
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hi Ak, Yes, the tracks are very close together, BUT, are you going to use computer

planned routes? If yes, then is it possible to program the trains so that they do not pass

each other on adjoining tracks at specific speeds? I do not do this or have knowledge of this but it may be

possible, no? Peter Unsure
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#40 Posted : 23 June 2014 13:15:19(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Maybe, but I do not trust them machines.Mellow

I am the last of the species "Tracklayerus Extinctus".WinkSMITHS-TRACK-LAYER.jpg

Edited by user 02 November 2016 12:21:30(UTC)  | Reason: Small typo corrected.

Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#41 Posted : 03 July 2014 02:55:31(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Now: Here comes the finalist. Shadow station "de-crowded", all turnouts accessible (at least from the side) without trouble, S-curves defused, no tight R1 curves in visible areas (graciously ignoring curved turnouts), tunnels minimized (following FD directive). It is a two-faced design, mainly for watching long train runs on the landscape side with the "Rotten Pass" towering over a deep valley as well as offering switching and shunting potential on the city side (working title: "Sam Diego"). Since there is a view block between both worlds, it is only possible to see either side. Therefore, there are two reverse loops on the lower level, so when working the station one has not to wait ages until a train returns from the mountain pass run (which cannot be supervised on the city side). On the other hand, when staying on the landscape side to guide a train during the mountain run, a train can safely return via the shadow station without any intervention, just reappearing without much delay near the creek at the valley bottom. I do not intend to automize operations. For ease of maintenance, the shadow station has open sides. The single track mountain pass tunnel and the double track sloped tunnel below the former can be reached by removing a low relief building on the city side. If I made up my mind, this would be the approach to be followed...
Blink Mellow Confused Bored Wink Woot

I attach the usual collection of plans (red = elevated):
1) lower levels;
2) upper levels;
3) all levels;
4) artist´s perception.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
22unten.png
22oben.png
22alles.png
22artist.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#42 Posted : 03 July 2014 02:58:55(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Somehow, I do not master the part list generated by the track planning tool. Thus, I provide two lists, one for the lower and one for the upper levels.

Count | Description
------+-------------
2 | 24071
4 | 24077
1 | 24094
4 | 24107
7 | 24115
23 | 24130
14 | 24172
6 | 24188
10 | 24206
4 | 24207
3 | 24215
4 | 24224
18 | 24230
12 | 24330
8 | 24430
5 | 24530
2 | 24611
1 | 24612
6 | 24671
4 | 24672
1 | 24712
16 | 24912
------+-------------

Count | Description
------+-------------
1 | 24064
4 | 24077
1 | 24094
4 | 24107
6 | 24115
21 | 24130
5 | 24172
2 | 24188
2 | 24206
3 | 24207
1 | 24224
23 | 24230
7 | 24330
2 | 24430
3 | 24530
11 | 24912
------+-------------
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Janne75  
#43 Posted : 03 July 2014 08:41:41(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,571
Location: Finland
Hi Ak,

I'm very impressed how well you have planned everything. You have limited space to create all this and anyway it will be a great layout when ready. When I look at your track part list I can see you are able to use many wider radius curves in the visible areas. In my opinion this is the best layout I have ever seen taking only this small area. And it has VERY long routes.

Congratulations as you are a genius! ThumpUp RollEyes

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 analog and digital layouts. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Janne75
Offline Alsterstreek  
#44 Posted : 03 July 2014 09:26:03(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Thank you Janne,

You make me blush.
Blushing

Yes, it is my intention to make ample use of wide radii and easements at the beginning of all curves to improve the appearance of coaches entering and leaving curves. Then, I want that tracks and landscape rise or increase steadily like cascading rice terraces - lower parts in front and higher parts in the back - to please a viewer.

Experience shows that - during a (potential) construction - it is possible to toss, push and pull here and there. I noticed already that it is feasible to turn the entire convolute in order to have the straight station trackage at an angle to the layout border, i.e. avoiding tracks running parallel to the the left edge of the layout.

All bridges need to be custom-built due to the capricious mainline design. And the city requires a lot of self-made low relief structures or backdrops.

At last but not at least, there should be a theatrical staging effect, thus trains appearing and disappearing with some sense of direction, i.e. coming from and going to distant destinations.

And I think I met all my aspirations during my day-long (many days already...) planning effort.
Blink Laugh

Edited by user 03 July 2014 16:05:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#45 Posted : 17 December 2014 12:33:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
I detected a really cool compact (100 x 160 cm) multi-level layout plan for M* C track. It is a single track main line complete with visible station and hidden shadow station (three tracks) on the ground level plus a branch line climbing up to a small terminus on level 3 - quite a long run for a short train. Visually very attractive. The main line level is easy to construct, while the branch line is more demanding. Still it is possible to play on the ground level while the upper level and landscape construction is still under way.

Source (with track library):
http://www.moba-trickkis...p;total=353&start=21
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
1.png
2.png
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline RayF  
#46 Posted : 17 December 2014 13:06:03(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,076
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Nice plan!

This would be nice as a secondary layout where you can run all your small engines with short trains. The branch line is especially attractive, and I would love to have the space to include such a feature on mine, but in the space I have available it would cover up too much of my main line.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#47 Posted : 17 December 2014 13:07:18(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Another idea which I find aesthetically appealing: Long twisted bi-level mainline run without a single turnout. The N-scale layout is supposed to support two PC monitors placed inside the two circles, respectively.

:-)

http://www.moba-trickkis...mp;total=64&start=40
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
b.jpg
a.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#48 Posted : 17 December 2014 13:18:38(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
And the final contribution (for today that is):

Actually not compact regarding the length - I reckon in HO scale it should be 3 m long - but conceptually interesting, an N-scale plan which is easy to construct with a lot of landscaping potential.

http://www.moba-trickkis...mp;total=64&start=42
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
n.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#49 Posted : 19 March 2015 18:39:57(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,258
Location: westernmost
Neither circle nor oval, but space saving design for "big time" shunting.
:o)
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
image.jpg
Greetz - Ak
UserPostedImage
My current layout(s): https://www.marklin-user...d-and-Hi-Land#post462389
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Offline Irish Rail  
#50 Posted : 19 March 2015 21:10:47(UTC)
Irish Rail

Ireland   
Joined: 04/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: West Cork
I like that idea, Ak. Any idea what sort of dimensions it would require?
I'm currently trying to come up with an overall layout plan/theme and shunting/freight operations would suit better than passenger or rural scenery. But space is limited and I will be using M-track. Would there would have to be an exit to a fiddle yard or shadow station?
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