AK, I will miss Slumburg. You have done a great job working in a small space. Will it be attacked by rockets like Dummtor?

Looks like a-lot of fun in a tight space, AK. I'm sure you'll have lots of fun building

this layout. Cheers,Peter

Hi there,

And now for something completely different.

On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Fehmarn Sound Bridge in Northern Germany and inspired by the outcome of the prototype post "Is this prototypical?" (https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/yaf_postst28881findunread_Is-this-prototypical.aspx#post433921) as well as by lessons learned by the construction of the small "Thunder Mountain" layout, I got another layout idea. The Fehmarn Sound Bridge is part of the Vogelfluglinie (German) or Fugleflugtslinjen (Danish) - literally: bird flight line - transport corridor between Copenhagen,Denmark, and Hamburg, Germany, which is a non-electrified single track mainline North of Lübeck. The core of the connection is the 19-kilometre (12 mi) combined car and train ferry link between Denmark and Germany. This sounds promising, does it not?

Please allow me to focus on international passenger trains on the German side. Before the opening of the bridge, an international train ferry service linked Grossenbrode quay on the German mainland with Denmark. E.g. the ferry "Danmark" had only a single track holding up to four coaches. Later ferries had three tracks which could hold three times four coaches. Thus, longer trains had to be broken up. During the 1950ies/1960ies, BR 50 and BR 03 steamers pulled a mix of national and international trains. After the construction of the bridge, the ferry called the new port of Puttgarden on the island of Fehmarn instead. Subsequently, DB class 221 diesels prevailed. The following international passenger rains were operated in the summer of 1965 (http://www.bahnen-im-norden.de/jalbum/vogelflug.html#Reisezug):

Nord-West-Express, Hoek van Holland - København (through coaches to/from Amsterdam, Oostende, Stockholm)
Paris-Skandinavien-Express Paris - København ((through coaches to/from Stockholm)
København-Express Hamburg - København
München-Express München - København (through coaches to/from Wien/Vienna)
Alpen-Express Roma - Brenner - København (through coaches to/from Venezia)
Nord-Express Paris - København
Schweiz-Express Basel - København (through coaches to/from Milano, Roma, Chur)
Italia-Express Roma - Gotthard - København (through coaches to/from Ventimiglia, Wien/Vienna)
Holland-Skandinavien-Express Hoek van Holland - København
Hamburg-Express Hamburg - København
Wiking-Express Hamburg - Hässleholm
Hispania-Express Port Bou/Cerbere - Genève - København
D289/290 Garmisch-Partenkirchen - København

As demonstrated in above mentioned prototype post, in 1978 there were short two-coach IC trains pulled by a DSB NOHAB and a DB class 221, respectively, as well as pure French SNCF trains pulled by Danish and German diesels, respectively.

Nowadays, regular passenger service (no more freight traffic) is offered by DB four car ICE TD high-speed DMU (formerly served by DSB IC3 units) boarding the ferry, while DB twin-car commuter service DMUs and seasonal double traction DB class 218 IC trains terminate at the German ferry port.

In a nutshell: big steamers, large red diesels, international mix of coaches, mostly short trains, single track main line without overhead wire, flat green landscape. Say no more, say no more, say no more: This is the ideal excuse for my below - surprise, surprise - compact layout and operations concept.

Now, the basic layout idea is to have a quayside scene with a mock-up train ferry in the background of a quay, which serves as a fiddle yard for a short international train. To the left the ferry port is linked to the single-track mainline - set in a green flat landscape, which has a gently swinging large radius curve. Northbound express trains arriving via the - fictional - lower wye track (which the former Grossenbrode ferry port on the mainland actually had), and the loco backs the train onto the ferry; subsequently, the loco uncouples and drives to the quay. Once the ferry "returns" from Denmark, the reverse operation is carried out for the southbound train, which eventually disappears for its long trip via the - fictional - upper wye leg. The front sidings are for a commuter train or serves as layover track for freight cars. When riding the mainline, the hidden loop extends travel time and allows to conceals the train, adding a level of realism and avoiding the train to chase its own tail. Trains can be short and colorful: Anything goes on 180 cm x 90 / 40 cm - see attached track plan !

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: To be continued / elaborated...

Man, this compact C-track stuff + semi-prototypical overlay is quite dense ... I've even lost count of the number of layouts you are working on atm ...

I'm sure the kids get it faster than I do ... ;)

Only photos and further documentation will allow me to wrap this new concept around my feeble head ^^ !

Go for it,

Y

PS: "Now we pretend that the ferry arrived in Denmark..." <--

Hi there,

Here comes phase 3 - see track plan:

It seems as if the bending widely accepted concepts of space and time is too overwhelming. So, let us keep the location in one country.

By inflating the measures of the loop module to 100 x 140 cm:
(1) A modest fiddle yard could be installed in the tunnel; each siding could hold one loco plus four 27 cm coaches, allowing to have meets in the tunnel or even simulate loads in / empties out freight operations;
(2) a outer "ring siding" could be added, giving more operational potential.

(3) By stretching the ferry port leg from 40 x 60 cm to 40 x 145 cm, longer trains could be run and a real wye could be built, allowing to turn steamers and sending trains into both directions. In general, the layout would obtain a more grown-up appeal (at the cost of space though).

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: To be continued / elaborated...
P.P.S.: I added a photo of the steamer "Danmark" (single-track train ferry) for the ones requiring a visual stimulus.

Good morning - phase 4:

A decent and self-respecting man can never have enough sidings. By slightly enlarging the ferry port leg to 50 x 145 cm and by replacing a normal by a three-way layout a couple of sidings can be added. Good use could be made of the outer loop siding as switching lead - see track plan.

Cheers - Ak

P.S.: I add another visual stimulus - see historic Wikimedia Commons photo of DMU leaving a more modern ferry in Grossenbrode.

Edited by user 30 December 2013 19:41:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Oh yes, and some bonus photos from Wikimedia Commons of single-track train ferries in the past and today.

Happy New Year - Ak

Good day,

Food for thought on 130x180 cm for out-of-the box thinking by another mind, or how flexible C track can be - see link:
http://imageshack.us/pho...s/195/cplan130180tx.jpg/

Cheers - Ak

After a lot of theory, the example of two "circular" layouts (I) really built, the single level 2006-7 Foursquare Circles (95 x 95 cm) and the tri-level 2013-? Thunder Mountain (100 x 128 cm) - see pic.

I love dense layouts with lots of station, siding and yard opportunities. I think using reverse/return loops at either end would make for more interesting operations, although also more complicated construction. A fiddle siding (or shadow station) could be incorporated on the reverse and return loops, accessed through the illustrated trap doors that would allow different trains to come and go. The upper(?) reverse loop (on the inside/right side) would potentially be the limiter for overall train length. However, based on the station and siding sizes, this would lend itself to operation of shorter consists IMHO. If it were to be US based I would try to extend this to a maximum to run longer trains.

-Brandon

I cannot get this concept out of my head. For a long time I am planning to incorporate it, and maybe I will do so once I have to retouch or rebuild a layout for any reason. It is a space saving idea to combine long layover tracks with a "dog bone end blob". The mainline swinging over the stub tracks will obscure the ends of the latter, thus giving the illusion of more depth. There are R9 easements at the beginning of visible curves and R1 curves are almost entirely hidden; ruling grade is three percent. Sticking to the limits of a 100 x 180 cm baseboard, the two inner stub tracks can hold five to six US streamliner coaches or nine to ten US 50 ft box cars. Outer stub tracks are for engines and cabooses. Increasing the baseboard dimensions by five centimeters would allow to add another stub track. When working the stub tracks, the outer mainline track serves as switching lead. In that case of an oncoming train circling on the mainline, it would be switched to the inner track, thus returning on its own path (see plan 1). Eventually, the train would need to return to the outer track at the top of the grade.

(One option is shown in plan 2, which proposes the second "dog bone end blob" on top of the lower one, thus closing the circle; the latter is not satisfactory enough for me, since I prefer a longer mainline run, but the option reflects the intended operation concept.)

Have been watching your ideas with interest as I have exactly this problem - how to fit an "interesting" layout into a confined area. In my case max is 2.4m*1.2m (slightly larger than your ideas here).

The latest version looks interesting, but one thing confuses me - the two red arrows point to "hidden reverse loop" but the tracks seem to end. Are you suggesting that they be connected by another loop? There doesn't seem to be sufficient height clearance on the at the arrow on the left. Or maybe I have misunderstood.

Something new for the archive. I recall a quote of a German railroad employee cum model railroader who - when asked what layout design he favors after all those year on the real thing - stated anything with long runs without any turnout. Now, I spent the better part of the day for a feasibility study of what a MRR aficincado with space limitations can expect on a L-shaped surface of 190 x 190 x 110 cm in this regard. This is meant for the individual who wants to see train(s) running. There is hardly any space for sidings. However - and I deem this to be spectacular and impossible to top - it is possible to squeeze 30 m of main line into this concept. The approach is a twisted dogbone on four (!) levels with at least R2 radius curves in visible areas (with one exception where the viewer looks from below into the inside of short stretch of a R1 radius curve) with easements and a two track shadow station in the lower balloon. It is intended to minimize track hidden in tunnels. Therefore, parts of the reverse balloons are left in the open where socially acceptable. The design of the shadow station can be improved (e.g., track length). Again, this is meant to be a feasibility study to test the limits... Let us start with the confusing view of all levels - see pic.

And here the upper levels 3 and 4.

I reworked the latter approach based on:

- my desire to transform the shadow station into a visible station area serving as parking zone for trains;

- the fact that the local hardware store has 100 x 200 cm foam boards in stock which I could "sandwich" into a 200 x 200 cm baseboard, from which a square is to be cut out in order to obtain an L-shaped base.

Here is a pic of the carnival of the worms.
Blue = lower levels 1 and 2
Red = upper levels 3 and 4

The urban station area and the monumental landscape are to be separated by a high scenic divider screen. On the station area it would serve as backdrop for urban canyons and on the landscape side for "real" canyons or badlands. When working either side, the respective other side is out of side. This requires to have access to the layout from three sides though.

On the side of the city, the elevated urban building flats behind the free standing station building - which again is sitting above the passenger station platforms - need to be high enough to hide the curve tunnel leading from level 2 to level 3 on the badlands side. Station tracks 5 and 6 are situated under tall warehouses or office building leaning against the scenic divider. On the badlands side, a creek separates the tracks on level 1 on the right side and level 2 on the level side. Tunnels are covered by eroded hills with sparse vegetation. Starting at 2 cm in the middle of the layout, the mainline gains altitude via the partly tunneled loop on the right bank of the creek before crossing its own path an following the left bank of the creek; then, follows a tunnel (which is actually under the city) before reappearing over the creek gap in order to cross the level 2 tracks at and disappearing again on the right bank; after another 180 degrees turn, a tall bridge at the end of the tunnel leads above the valley until at an altitude of 26 cm above the creek level (or 24 cm above level 1), the top tunnel on the left bank marks the summit of "Rotten Pass" on the "Fanta Se" mainline. From the station to the summit it is a 15 m run, thus a 30 m round trip. Because of the stretched grades, the ruling grade is kept around 2.5 percent.

See embellished track plan showing visible tracks and envisaged scenicking.

And now in 3D!

I built a 1/10 scale model of the layout trackage (thus 1/870 so to speak).

Hi Ak,

You are genius as you are able to plan so long tracks in many levels to such a limited space . This is very interesting layout plan. When it will be ready it will be almost impossible for people watching trains running to know and tell where trains will go next. This is good and keeps it interesting to watch. I have no skills to build such multi level layouts myself. How many meters of track there will be in total?

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
Janne

Oh, and another caveat: While allowing for long mainline runs of trains and up to three meter long spurs and sidings, I planned elevations and criss-crossing for diesel and steam operation. Employing catenary would either require to employ custom made solutions or slightly higher elevations, resulting in a little bit steeper slopes.

Somehow, I do not master the part list generated by the track planning tool. Thus, I provide two lists, one for the lower and one for the upper levels.

Count | Description
------+-------------
2 | 24071
4 | 24077
1 | 24094
4 | 24107
7 | 24115
23 | 24130
14 | 24172
6 | 24188
10 | 24206
4 | 24207
3 | 24215
4 | 24224
18 | 24230
12 | 24330
8 | 24430
5 | 24530
2 | 24611
1 | 24612
6 | 24671
4 | 24672
1 | 24712
16 | 24912
------+-------------

Count | Description
------+-------------
1 | 24064
4 | 24077
1 | 24094
4 | 24107
6 | 24115
21 | 24130
5 | 24172
2 | 24188
2 | 24206
3 | 24207
1 | 24224
23 | 24230
7 | 24330
2 | 24430
3 | 24530
11 | 24912
------+-------------

Thank you Janne,

You make me blush.


Yes, it is my intention to make ample use of wide radii and easements at the beginning of all curves to improve the appearance of coaches entering and leaving curves. Then, I want that tracks and landscape rise or increase steadily like cascading rice terraces - lower parts in front and higher parts in the back - to please a viewer.

Experience shows that - during a (potential) construction - it is possible to toss, push and pull here and there. I noticed already that it is feasible to turn the entire convolute in order to have the straight station trackage at an angle to the layout border, i.e. avoiding tracks running parallel to the the left edge of the layout.

All bridges need to be custom-built due to the capricious mainline design. And the city requires a lot of self-made low relief structures or backdrops.

At last but not at least, there should be a theatrical staging effect, thus trains appearing and disappearing with some sense of direction, i.e. coming from and going to distant destinations.

And I think I met all my aspirations during my day-long (many days already...) planning effort.

Edited by user 03 July 2014 16:05:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Nice plan!

This would be nice as a secondary layout where you can run all your small engines with short trains. The branch line is especially attractive, and I would love to have the space to include such a feature on mine, but in the space I have available it would cover up too much of my main line.

And the final contribution (for today that is):

Actually not compact regarding the length - I reckon in HO scale it should be 3 m long - but conceptually interesting, an N-scale plan which is easy to construct with a lot of landscaping potential.

http://www.moba-trickkis...mp;total=64&start=42

I like that idea, Ak. Any idea what sort of dimensions it would require?
I'm currently trying to come up with an overall layout plan/theme and shunting/freight operations would suit better than passenger or rural scenery. But space is limited and I will be using M-track. Would there would have to be an exit to a fiddle yard or shadow station?