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Offline casdeop  
#1 Posted : 30 January 2013 13:54:59(UTC)
casdeop

Chile   
Joined: 24/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: Dubai
Good day to all,

Has any one used the New Marklin 60801 Sound Programmer for mSD?

How do you use it?

Regards
Carlos Huh
Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 30 January 2013 20:20:22(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257


I didn't even know it existed! Blushing

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline steventrain  
#3 Posted : 30 January 2013 20:41:28(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
I never have one.Confused
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Hajime  
#4 Posted : 31 January 2013 18:00:09(UTC)
Hajime

Japan   
Joined: 29/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 88
Location: ,
Hello,

The manual of mDecoder Tool said, "The Sound programmer can only be used
at service centers or dealers. It is used for faster transfer of sound files to mSD. "

See;
http://www.maerklin.de/d...pdates/decoder-tool.html
Offline mbarreto  
#5 Posted : 31 January 2013 20:06:16(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: Hajime Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

The manual of mDecoder Tool said, "The Sound programmer can only be used
at service centers or dealers. It is used for faster transfer of sound files to mSD. "

See;
http://www.maerklin.de/d...pdates/decoder-tool.html





It is only also for older than 15! BigGrin

It is of interest mainly for those that don't have a CS2 or professionals (or people like some of us) that want to program the decoders without having to save the config in a memory stick and use the CS2 to pass the config to the decoder.



Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 01 February 2013 07:25:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
It is of interest mainly for those that don't have a CS2 or professionals (or people like some of us) that want to program the decoders without having to save the config in a memory stick and use the CS2 to pass the config to the decoder.
Best of all: even if you have that fancy programmer, you still need a CS2 for some changes (e.g. firmware upgrades or function mappings).

If the firmware of the decoder is too old, the programmer simply refuses to upload sounds - until the decoder was updated with a CS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline casdeop  
#7 Posted : 04 February 2013 06:00:03(UTC)
casdeop

Chile   
Joined: 24/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: Dubai
Thanks Tom;

It looked like a good solution for me as I don't have or plan on getting a CS2 any time soon.

I purchased a Marklin 60801 Sound Programer one on my las trip to Hamburg. I followed the installation instructions to load the drivers and needed soft wear as required. Once you do all this you still need to update the firmware on the mSD. So back to getting a CS2.

Is there any other way of updating the firmware on a mSD?

Regards
Carlos
Offline drwhitl  
#8 Posted : 04 February 2013 08:17:59(UTC)
drwhitl


Joined: 12/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 97
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hajime Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

The manual of mDecoder Tool said, "The Sound programmer can only be used
at service centers or dealers. It is used for faster transfer of sound files to mSD. "

See;
http://www.maerklin.de/d...pdates/decoder-tool.html





It is only also for older than 15! BigGrin

It is of interest mainly for those that don't have a CS2 or professionals (or people like some of us) that want to program the decoders without having to save the config in a memory stick and use the CS2 to pass the config to the decoder.





I bought one, (programmer) and it's actually quite simple to use - I don't know why M say it can only be used at service centres and dealers. It certainly simpifies and speeds up the task of loading sound files quite considerably, and one can load one's own sound files as well as the standard M versions. At the moment the programmer functionality appears to be just that, (loading sound files) but it's quite obvious when you look at the mdecoder tool on a PC that there is a lot more functionality coming. (Normal CV read/writes etc.) It looks like ultimately it will do the same job as the ESU lokprogrammer (but for M decoders, of course).

cheers
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 04 February 2013 08:45:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: drwhitl Go to Quoted Post
but it's quite obvious when you look at the mdecoder tool on a PC that there is a lot more functionality coming. (Normal CV read/writes etc.) It looks like ultimately it will do the same job as the ESU lokprogrammer (but for M decoders, of course).
People on Stummi's Forum write that this is not possible to update the firmware based on the way the programmer connects to the decoder. I've never seen the M programmer so I do not know.

Time will tell what the tool will be able to do in the future. Don't buy it based on expected future extensions that may never come.

The decoder tool can also be used with a CS2 and a USB memory stick. AFAIK this way also allows uploading own sound projects to the decoder.
By using the M programmer you save a millifortnight during the upload - but have to remove the decoder from the loco for that task.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline steventrain  
#10 Posted : 18 February 2013 19:44:56(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
60801 sound programmes manual download in PDF 3MB

http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60801_betrieb.pdf

Please note - Copy and paste the link.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Token  
#11 Posted : 02 June 2015 13:58:18(UTC)
Token

Australia   
Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi all,

I am trying to weigh up if this would be a useful tool to have, given I already have a CS2. Can anyone offer any advice as to whether this device is worth the money or do I stick to downloading via CS2/USB?

Regards,

Michael.
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 02 June 2015 15:29:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Michael!
Originally Posted by: Token Go to Quoted Post
Can anyone offer any advice as to whether this device is worth the money or do I stick to downloading via CS2/USB?
I wrote: "By using the M programmer you save a millifortnight during the upload - but have to remove the decoder from the loco for that task."

AFAIK the Sound Programmer can do less than the CS2, not more - but it does the things it does a little bit quicker - and without locking the CS2 for a while.
This tool is meant for dealers where 10 minutes vs. 30 minutes make a big difference.

If you buy the Programmer then you can run trains with the CS2 while the Programmer uploads sounds to a decoder.
If you don't buy the Programmer then you can read a book or a newspaper while the CS2 uploads sounds to a decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#13 Posted : 02 June 2015 15:34:17(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
The SoundProgrammer is exactly what its name implies: A tool to program sound. It is NOT (and should not be compared to) the LokProgrammer from ESU. The purpose of the two is very different.

You will use this tool if you are a dealer and a customer wants another sound scheme on the decoder they've just bought. That's about it.

If you are a home user that simply needs a way to program your decoders, the SoundProgrammer will not help you, because it cannot perform such a task. For this you will need either the Mobile Station 2 (non mfx-stuff) or the Central Station 2.

The Central Station 2 can do so much more than the SoundProgrammer, because the SoundProgrammer was never intended for the home user. If you have a Central Station 2, getting a SoundProgrammer would be a waste of money. It will not do anything that you cannot do already.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline stevend  
#14 Posted : 03 June 2015 03:35:28(UTC)
stevend


Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Christchurch,
Having the programmer will speed up the time it takes to download a sound file.

Kind Regards
D
Offline sjlauritsen  
#15 Posted : 03 June 2015 06:00:05(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: stevend Go to Quoted Post
Having the programmer will speed up the time it takes to download a sound file.

Yeah, but is that worth the 65 - 70 euroes that the Sound Programmer costs? Around the cost of a Mobile Station 2. The only thing it can do is update the sound. I mean, how often do one update the sound on a locomotive? And the CS2 is not THAT slow...

IMO the money is better spent on something else for the model railway. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 03 June 2015 07:37:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: stevend Go to Quoted Post
Having the programmer will speed up the time it takes to download a sound file.
Well, yes.
You save a millifortnight with every decoder.
Update 1000 decoders and you save two weeks.
Update 10 decoders and you save three hours.

Just estimate how many decoders you will update with it and decide whether it's worth your money.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Token  
#17 Posted : 06 June 2015 07:27:47(UTC)
Token

Australia   
Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
If you are a home user that simply needs a way to program your decoders, the SoundProgrammer will not help you, because it cannot perform such a task. For this you will need either the Mobile Station 2 (non mfx-stuff) or the Central Station 2.


This is why I love this forum - you have all saved me from another pointless purchase - thanks guys! LOL

One question though Sven, you mentioned MS2 as well as CS2. If I had an MS2 in addition to a CS2, I could reprogram an MFX using the MS2 while running trains with my CS2?

Cheers,

Michael.
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Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 06 June 2015 10:11:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Token Go to Quoted Post
If I had an MS2 in addition to a CS2, I could reprogram an MFX using the MS2 while running trains with my CS2?
The mfx programming capabilities of an MS2 are best described as "non existent". You can use the MS2 to set the volume, the maximum speed, the acceleration and braking delay.
See post #14 in this thread:
https://www.marklin-user...l-arrived-but#post488639

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#19 Posted : 07 June 2015 09:14:45(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Yes this tool cannot be compared with ESU

The biggest problem is the missing documentation how to create your own sound files for exemel the Engine.

M has done it to compicaded with so many files for each step compared with ESU Cursing

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
ToDo since 2012.............

It looks more that M has abandoned this tool when neither application and documentation are up to date.

mDecoderTool

Remember, Swedish T44 sold with Nohab sound Cursing , lack of interest by M ThumbDown
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 07 June 2015 09:42:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Remember, Swedish T44 sold with Nohab sound Cursing , lack of interest by M ThumbDown
That's a Märklin tradition. Even when M still used ESU decoders they sold many locos with incorrect sounds.
Why change this when the locos get sold anyway?

And yes: not all ESU sounds are good, not all ESU sounds are correct.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#21 Posted : 07 June 2015 10:40:14(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
That's a Märklin tradition.

Indeed Unsure

Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
Offline PhiMa  
#22 Posted : 24 July 2015 12:04:47(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
Hi,

Like others here, I wonder why Märklin is not doing more efforts to sell the mSD decoders, while they initially did quite a good job. As far as I know, they work well, and I don not think that they are overpriced. However the documentation for the Decoder Tool (mDT, software) is very limited, and indeed I know no documentation about how to make motor sounds (and very little about making any sound in fact).

But... I suspect that the combination mSD (decoder) / mDT (software) / 60801 ('sound programmer') / some access to a CS2 for firmware updates...
... can be more successful than most would expect. I could produce simple sounds, "loop" sounds (whistle), and... a "draft" motor sound.

You can listen to my "draft" motor sound here : https://vimeo.com/134098534

There are good news :
1) you don't need to produce all of the sounds "components" shown on the post by Jonas above. A few sound files can already provide something acceptable, depending on the motor and how demanding you are.
2) I have some understanding of it, still limited but much better than nothing, and using the 60801 is helping - I just discovered that there is "log" file produced when uploading a sound, it gives some hints about how it works. The fact that you can connect a speaker to the 60801 is also very useful, you can test every sound including motor speed up / down.
3) Although the process is quite long at present, the more we understand, the more we can simplify. In particular, I use a small script to copy a few file with simple names (e.g. idle, speedUp1, etc.) to the Märklin names: this may help understanding what needs to be done, and provide other motor sounds with less efforts.

This is a work in progress. It may takes weeks, months or years depending on my time availability... but if someone is interested in sharing knowledge about this, I am more than open to it. Given the time, I would even try tor write a complete manual. If you have suggestions about how and/or on which site to do this efficiently, it is also welcome.

Maybe Märklin could help if they understand that users are interested? Personally I would not buy LokSounds if mSD works, with fine sounds that I can modify. We want to help Märklin staying alive, don't we ?
So no ESU if not needed, and please, Märklin, some help would be welcome ! At least, don't stop providing a minimal support for the mDT software (It may worth an update, after 3 years ?), selling compatible mSD, and selling the 60801. The only thing I would be upset with, is that my efforts become useless because some component becomes unavailable.

Philippe.
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Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 25 July 2015 08:38:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PhiMa Go to Quoted Post
But... I suspect that the combination mSD (decoder) / mDT (software) / 60801 ('sound programmer') / some access to a CS2 for firmware updates...
... can be more successful than most would expect. I could produce simple sounds, "loop" sounds (whistle), and... a "draft" motor sound.
With access to a CS2 you can do all this without the 60801.

They could advertise the advantages of mSD+mDT+CS2 and also point out the advantages of a 60801 for those who frequently use the mDT.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#24 Posted : 25 July 2015 11:27:40(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
I think it's a myth that retailers produce as much decoders with 60801, this tool must have been a poor investment for M Huh
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
Offline PhiMa  
#25 Posted : 01 August 2015 23:38:31(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

They could advertise the advantages of mSD+mDT+CS2 and also point out the advantages of a 60801 for those who frequently use the mDT.


I agree, but :

While the CS2 combination seems to work for some people, I couldn't have it working with sounds produced by the mDT after trying during about 5 - 6 hours... The CS2 was up to date, but it never "recognized" my sound files. The CS2 software seems very limited for this type of work, it is not helping the user to figure out what is happening when it does not work.
By contrast, the 60801 worked within minutes once the driver was installed.
The advantage of the CS2, admitting that some people are able to prepare the correct files with the mDT, have them on a USB stick AND recognized by the CS2, is that you don't need to remove the decoder. But from what I read in other posts (and probably Märklin's documentation), it then takes roughly 30 minutes.

The 60801 is indeed advantageous for those using the mDT. Not only for a "frequent" use, but also for a "demanding" use. I would not have reached the (partial) result that is shown on the video (see my previous post) with a CS2 - it would need more than a long day of attempts at the rate of maximum one test per 45 minutes.
With the 60801 it takes a few minutes to upload all the sounds, and then everything can be tested immediately. As we do not have any documentation about preparing motor sounds, as far as I know, the first tests can be nothing else than failures, at least partially.
If trying again takes 5 minutes, one may survive with a trial-and-error approach, provided that the software also helps guessing what needs to be done.
The stupid thing is that Märklin does not provide the 60801 with a speaker, but it can be added more or less easily.

For information, part of the explanation about the lack of support for the 60801 might be that Märklin does not produce, and possibly did not design, the 60801. It is an adapted version of a tool from Dietz, with absolutely no doubt about this since the PCB inside the 60801 is marked with the name "Dietz". You may see Dietz's own version here : http://www.d-i-e-t-z.de/2_7.htm


Offline H0  
#26 Posted : 02 August 2015 09:17:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PhiMa Go to Quoted Post
But from what I read in other posts (and probably Märklin's documentation), it then takes roughly 30 minutes.
Not roughly, rather up to 30 minutes.

If you start from scratch, your sound projects should upload within seconds (if you start small doing trial and error).
If you start big having several megabytes of sound the upload will take up to 30 minutes.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline stevend  
#27 Posted : 03 August 2015 00:07:14(UTC)
stevend


Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Christchurch,
Hi,

I'm a Marklin dealer...I use this tool every week. It saves me hours of time. Some files take 15-30 mins to load using CS, using the programmer typical time is 1-3 minutes based on what I'm doing. I'm guessing but...would suggest Marklin uses this device in house...and was the primary purpose for this item being designed and produced in the first place. I'm guessing, that someone decided to make it available to dealers to assist them. The lack of documentation and features suggests it isn't really for the mass market.

Kind Regards
Dion

Offline PhiMa  
#28 Posted : 09 August 2015 00:37:44(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: stevend Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
The lack of documentation and features suggests it isn't really for the mass market.


Thanks all for your comments. Indeed I heard that the SoundProgrammer was not intended for "end-users". But I think that Märklin makes a mistake !
Why ? Because the lack of a good and well documented sound making tool means that Märklin does not want to sell mSD decoders to "advanced users". Of course you can upload sounds downloaded from Märklin with a CS2. But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about using the mSD to create motor (and other) sounds in the same way advanced users can use ESU LokSound decoders and the associated "programmer". Ok I do not have personal experience with this, but here is what can be done with a LokSound for the same locomotive as the one I have the mSD in :


I think that several motor sounds made by Märklin aren't as good as what is shown on this video, and even not as good as what I have from standard LokSounds (at least for Märklin "export" models, including the "Nohab" group released in 2014/2015)

As it is now, it looks like the mDT software is for making "average" sounds with substantial efforts. Considering that ESU apparently enables the preparation of "good or very good" sounds with less efforts, even if the LokSounds are higher priced, the consequence is that "advanced" users will not want mSD decoders. Is that a good choice for Märklin ? At this points it would need a market study... if demanding users are only playing within their own "circles", ok Märklin doesn't need to care about them. If, by contrast, those more oriented towards programming and electronics are in good contact with many user types, from kids to people with large Märklin collections... the message that "Märklin decoders are not that good" could be a bad one.

This said, I admit that I am doing this in part because I find it frustrating to have a good hardware like the mSD decoders and being unable to make full use of them. The problem here is software. The mDT should receive more attention. If Märklin is using it internally, they would have double benefit from improving the software : they would sell better products and they would waste less time preparing the sounds ! If you are using a software, then making it right may worth the money...

Philippe.
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Offline H0  
#29 Posted : 09 August 2015 08:10:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PhiMa Go to Quoted Post
Is that a good choice for Märklin?
The typical Märklin customer does not care (much) about perfect details or prototypically correct sound. Make 90% of customers happy with 10% of effort.

This is a good decision in the short run, but is it a good decision also in the long run?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#30 Posted : 09 August 2015 08:24:51(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: PhiMa Go to Quoted Post
As it is now, it looks like the mDT software is for making "average" sounds with substantial efforts. Considering that ESU apparently enables the preparation of "good or very good" sounds with less efforts, even if the LokSounds are higher priced, the consequence is that "advanced" users will not want mSD decoders. Is that a good choice for Märklin ? At this points it would need a market study... if demanding users are only playing within their own "circles", ok Märklin doesn't need to care about them. If, by contrast, those more oriented towards programming and electronics are in good contact with many user types, from kids to people with large Märklin collections... the message that "Märklin decoders are not that good" could be a bad one.

I think the majority of customers do not care. They have some diesel sound in their diesel locomotive and that is good enough for most people. I do not think there is any real money in developing a truly advanced sound decoder unless the goal was to have an advanced sound decoder for the mass market. Märklin only produces 21-pin MTC and an 8-pin decoder. They do not produce any other types, which tells me that the mSD exists only to provide a platform for easily putting sounds into Märklin/Trix locomotives. Sounds that you download from the Märklin website. Again, this suits the needs of most people. It does not look like Märklin wants to provide other options than that.

Märklin could choose to provide a full blown sound decoder platform with all the cool sound features, but in reality, I think only a small amount of people would actually use it. Those people buy ESU today. From my point of view it would worth the investment.

On the other hand, I do think that it would make some sense for Märklin to provide the mSD and mLD for the PluX plugs as well. This would make it possible for people to put them in locomotives with PluX (new PIKO, Roco etc.). I am unsure of the demand though. But it would make it easier to build mfx into non-21-pin locomotives. ESU offers the M4, but I would like mfx from Märklin so I can benefit from potential upcoming updates to the platform. Also, I do not like having several different types of decoders.

IMO Märklin should branch out the digital system into a separate product line with its own profile and market it as a universal digital system. Currently they market it as digital for Märklin, Trix and LGB products, which is somewhat the same thing, but many people think that the system only works with Märklin products.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline biedmatt  
#31 Posted : 09 August 2015 13:18:05(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
The state of MFX reflects Marklin's attitude toward digital operation: it is something they must produce, but they would be all the happier if they didn't need to make a digital system. Other than MFX+, it is functionally the same as it was ten years ago and there have been no advancements in lokomotive control.

I do not understand MFX+. The DB and every other prototype railroad knows what the consumption rate of the consumables are for their lokos. Even back in the days of steam. They also know the distance it must travel until the next service and what the load is it must pull. They do not send their lokos out into their system with the hope it has enough consumables to make it to the other end. To me it is nothing more than a gimmick play toy function without any connection to a real railroad's operations. Why do they think we would want to operate our railroads in such a haphazard unprofessional way?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline sjlauritsen  
#32 Posted : 09 August 2015 13:50:12(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
To me it is nothing more than a gimmick play toy function without any connection to a real railroad's operations. Why do they think we would want to operate our railroads in such a haphazard unprofessional way?

Not "we". Smile I do not agree with you. I think it is a fun addition to the operation of a model railway. I do not consider myself unprofessional for that reason.

I do not think it is unrealistic, if the train runs out of fuel it does not work properly. That is very realistic to me. I guess you get what you make of it. I can see possibilities in having to actually do some service and maintenance as part of an operating session. I could plan for locomotive roundtrips and calculate how many trips a railbus could make before having to go and get fuel. Normally in operating sessions, at least in the ones I participate in, service and fueling of locos is a completely overseen task. With mfx+ not doing these things actually have consequences.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline H0  
#33 Posted : 09 August 2015 18:19:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I do not think it is unrealistic, if the train runs out of fuel it does not work properly. That is very realistic to me.
A steamer that runs out of water blows up. A steamer that runs out of coal comes to a standstill.
A loco without sand can still run at full speed, but for security reasons it may run at slow speeds only. So with respect to sand the behaviour is somewhat realistic.

Steam production in a steam loco is very complicated. The simple "simulation" in the CS2 is not at all realistic IMHO.

mfx+ as it is now does not add any value for me and does not make locos more attractive to me.
It's fine by me if others like mfx+, but this does not appeal to everybody. And does anybody need more than four mfx+ locos with different cabs (old electric, new electric, diesel, steam)?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#34 Posted : 09 August 2015 18:54:00(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Steam production in a steam loco is very complicated. The simple "simulation" in the CS2 is not at all realistic IMHO.

So they should not have done it at all, because they could not make it spot on realistic? I bet you would be annoyed if your steamer blew up because you forgot to put virtual water in it. Come on! Smile It is just a fun thing! Don't like it, don't use it.

An electrical motor in the boiler of a steamer is not realistic either. wink
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline H0  
#35 Posted : 09 August 2015 20:12:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I don't expect the model to blow up.
But there could be a "Game over - boiler ran empty" message.

And the behaviour with respect to steam production, steam consumption and speed could be much more realistic (even with an electric motor in the loco). M$ Train Simulator does it pretty good IMHO.
The actions that make an mfx+ steam loco run fast will make a TrainSim loco run extremely slow.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline sjlauritsen  
#36 Posted : 09 August 2015 21:41:21(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't expect the model to blow up.
But there could be a "Game over - boiler ran empty" message.

I know you don't, I was joking with you. Smile

The degree of realism could of course be developed even more than it currently is. My point with realism is that something does happen - in some way - and without mfx+ nothing happens at all. Thinking that way, mfx+ is still more realistic than none mfx+. I run 2-rail, so I cannot benefit from mfx+ on my own layout before Märklin releases some sort of retrofit decoder. I am looking forward to that, though. I guess we have to wait a bit until the hype dies out.

I am currently not into the driver cab thing, I am solely interested in the fuel concept (and that is for diesel locos, since I am in the modern era). With electric locos it seems somewhat odd, but what to do.

With regards to Train Simulator, isn't Microsoft Train Simulator dead and long gone? I play Train Simulator 2015 (another company) which is super awesome. The UK maps are much more developed with regards to signal reality than the German maps - unfortunately - but it is still great fun.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
M$

Man! M$ is so 1990'es... wink




Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline PhiMa  
#37 Posted : 11 August 2015 03:19:53(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
For information:
I think that I made good progress. I do not want a perfect sound, I just want one a good one. The diesel locomotive that is the focus on my first efforts has a rather specific motor sound. I now have something that it is reasonably close to be good. Most importantly, the remaining anomalies are no longer due to problems related to understanding the mSD but rather to the "preparation" of the sound. I learned very useful things about the mDecoderTool :in particular that you can get rid of the pitch changes in the mSD by setting the motor sound parameters named SR1 and SR2 both to 128. Most importantly, that the mDT version 1.0.0, the only one I could get from Märklin's website, contains significant bugs in the "operation chart" for diesels. The sequence of sounds is not at all as displayed ! I relied on a set of test files to find out how it is really working, in fact I made an english version of what Märklin calls the "systematik" sound, ie. a sound set in which each file contains the recording of someone reading what should be in that file. By playing this, you learn the sequence of sounds... I think that there are many possibilities. I shall provide a video with the real motor sound (maybe not soon, this depends on my available time).

I do not know how other brands compares to Märklin in this regard, but to me it is important that it remains possible to play with these models, including for kids much younger than the "15 years" that is now stupidly written on many boxes. Some very detailed models from brands producing small quantities of specific models are not as playable as more modest models from Märklin (parts may break much more easily, and sometimes they are not very well suited for Märklin tracks, even K-tracks). A good old robust Märklin model with a new decoder can be impressive... and less easily damaged. Re MFX+, I never tried it, it seems quite fun but not essential.

Would someone be interested in more explanations about what I learned re the mDT / mSD ?

Philippe.
Offline Shamu  
#38 Posted : 11 August 2015 05:29:09(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Most definitely Philippe ThumpUp.

I downloaded the mDT software the beginning of last year but due to eing very lazy about moving I have yet to delve into it.

My main and first project will be to try and come up with what would pass as the operational sounds for a V32. I am assuming the steam/compress air sounds from the pistons along with running gear would need to be overlayed onto the sounds for a diesel loco of the period I.E. a V140.

Thanks for the information so far Philippe, at least it would appear that my end goal will be possible after all.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline PhiMa  
#39 Posted : 11 August 2015 20:31:31(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
I do not want to blow hot and cold at the same time, but I run into serious trouble while testing my result. It seemed good while testing on the SoundProgrammer, when no motor was there. But I spent hours (!) just trying to find a way to get the motor starting at the right time, with no result. Right now I am disappointed, but still trying to understand what could be done.
Offline PhiMa  
#40 Posted : 18 August 2015 23:17:28(UTC)
PhiMa

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brussels
Better news : the problem mentioned on August 11 was solved a few days later. The problem appeared when a sound file containing the motor sound corresponding to a change from "idle to load" was "too long". This results in an abnormal behavior in which the sound changes back to "normal power" almost immediately after reaching the "load" condition. What "too long" means remains a mystery, but the odd behavior stops when the file is shorter. I would describe the result as "good", meaning not excellent but at least as good as most sounds provided by Märklin in the "sound library" (most of them are very simple, at least based on my investigations about diesel locomotives).

I should now make a new video and summarize my findings but needs time which I do not have at present.

I still have remaining questions such as why there are up to 4 files for each of the sounds in the motor category... the mDT (software) plays them sequentially, but I couldn't make any use of it on a decoder so far (they do not seem to play sequentially). It is difficult to find out what Märklin is doing with any file because I can only play them in the mDT or in a decoder, as the file format seems to be a protected variant of .wav (the mDT accepts two forms of these files, normally readable ones and the odd Märklin variant - if anyone knows about a way to read those files on a computer other than with the mDT, which is not very practical to investigate the purpose of each file separately, I am interested to know about this).
Offline atlebjanes  
#41 Posted : 08 September 2022 03:51:17(UTC)
atlebjanes

United States   
Joined: 02/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Pennsylvania, Ephrata
Hello, this is many years later - but I just purchased a 60801 sound programmer, but the link to the software is now dead. Does someone here have the software they can share with me for programming? I only have MS2 and not CS2 or 3.

Will this software work with the latest sound library from Märklin?

Thank you!

Atle
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#42 Posted : 08 September 2022 06:36:17(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Try the new version 3.5.0 of mDT3 and with it you can download sounds and finished projects...
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
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