Hi All,
This is my first post here. I have been a marklin "follower" since my first trip to Germany back in 1991. That's when I bought my first starter set, and ever since I have been buying little by little pieces to add to my set. Several moves accross countries and then states didn't help my layout, and finally a 4 years ago I bought a Noch layout and was able to get my system going in a permanent place after so many moves...

That didn't last long, as we soon got a dog and the bastard started eating the cables which prompted me to lay the layout agaisnt the wall and not look at it for 3 years.

Finally a couple of months ago I moved (again) and I finally found myself with the space to not only have this layout but add several pieces to it...

Always being a big technology freak, I thought that I would jump on the digital bandwagon, but since I didn't want to buy "Old technology" I jumped in with a starter set with the 60652 Mobile station and the power pack...

My impressions? It looks cool, it handles cool, too bad my old locos don't have all the extra functions, but I'm sure I'll be getting those eventually...

One thing I think sucks big time is the fact that I can't have more than 2 locos running at the same time... (I'm using the power pack that came with the set)

The question is (finally!) if I get a 42 va transformer, would I see a big difference... Would I be able to drive 3-4 locomotives???

From what I have seen, it seems that I'll be needing to get the 60212 station whenever it comes out, (I'm planning on having about 110 feet of track) but I'm a little desperate as you can imagine and was wondering if this would be a temporary fix...

I do have a 32 va transformer here, but I believe I need a special cable which I can't find the # for...

Thanks for your answers/insights on this matter...

By the way, my name is David Rodriguez and I live in South Florida. I'm running C track on a 4' x 8' (2 x 1 meters) with 4 switches and 4 lights (viessmann) but I'm already working on a bigger layout...

Hello,
and nice to hear you!
First, both the transformer and the Mobile Station (MobStat) have precautions agains overheating = power limits. So, if you use a 30 VA transformer with the MobStat from a starter set, you will still nog get more than around 20 VA to track.

Becuase,
the starter set MobStat is limited to 1.2 A, the 60652 bought separately, 1.9 A or near 30VA.

If you buy another 60652 separately, you can use the old MobStat as "slave" controller provided you have the piece of cable needed for this (may be you get it with a 60652?). In this case you have 30 VA, and two controllers.

Regards,
Lars
It's the Mobile Station that limits the power, regardless if you use a stronger transformer or not. You may buy an

Well,
I understand you, but I don't not agree. You can control 10, but you can't run them at the same time. If your power doesn't suffice for more than 2 trains, either you use the current for more, like car lights, or other lights, or your locos are really heavy drinkers...

In the past the rule of thumb was 3-4 locos with 30 VA, which is in correspondance with your situation; however, recents reports say that modern locos consume less.

/Lars

Hi David:

Welcome to The Forum !
BTW, should you really be in need for an 2nd Mobile Station don't buy this item separately - it's wasted money ! For the price of an solo-buy MS you can get the cheapest Systems Starter Set (Firetrain) - or for a few bucks more a better one - and loco, cars, track, plus another transformer are virtually for free.
I often buy starter sets (when they contain locos I'd like to have) - since they're for promotion and thus real bargains
The connection cable for plugging a 2nd MS into connection track is # 610479

John

post scriptum: You would be surprised how many locos can run troublefree with a standard MS & that little black 18VA tranny - just test it by yourself [:p]

Dear John,
did you read what was asked for[:p] The question was about more power, not more MobStats. And to my knowledge, the Mobstat with higher rating is not supplied in the starter sets you speak about...

Regards,
Lars

So, if one wanted to move from the 6021 to the mobile station and have the setup able to handle the most loks:

1) Buy the 60652 Mobile Controller. (by the way I read on one distributor's web site that the controller that is included with the starter sets is a 60651. Could be a typo, but could it explain the 1.2A vs 1.9A issue?)

2) Keep your 6002 Transformer as the power supply.

Then, would you need to:

a) Buy the Mobile Station Feeder Track?
b) Buy some type of cable to connect the 6002 to the Mobile station?

Is there something else involved, or would this be a complete shopping list?

Regards,
Frank

Then I was right when i said that it could be a software problem.
It is almost always the software.

Second MS can be used if the layout is split. This should allow 6/7 trains to run.
David

I guess I must have some very heavy drinkers then... I run without a problem a 34633 Pepsi Loco and a 33184. Those 2 guys go around the tracks without any problems. As soon as I give some power to the third loco (Cargo Loco from 29646 starer set) the Mobile Station gives me the overload signs... This doesn't happen with just that particular locomotive, but with any combination of the three.

I bought the Mobile Station off ebay. I thought that $90 I was getting a pretty good deal, considering the unit itself costs over $160. For $90 I got the unit, the power pack and the 24088 connector.

According to the instructions, you can only have the track connected to the power pack, therefore I connected all of the signals to the separate transformer.

I checked on the back of the unit and all of the cataloges, and everywhere it says "60652" however, there is no electrical information on the back, only on the power pack.

My guess is that there has to be a difference somewhere, otherwise why would they sell starter sets with different transformers?? Some have the power pack and others have a 60VA transformer...

Maybe I need a crash course on electronics and electricity to understand all of the factors to be taken into consideration. It was my understanding that the transformer would make the difference, therefore having a 18va power pack or a 42 va transformer...

I did think about buying another starter set because they are a pretty good deal, I thought that I would do that because I could get the bigger transformer, but if now you are saying that won't make a difference, I'm not so sure if I should get it...

Dear Lars,
I did but then was carried away by those prices - my mistake, sorry [:I]
YOU are right

John

Hi everybody,

Sorry that my reply is so long, but there are several interesting issues here which might also benefit others….

First of all, like some of you I was surprised to read that David was only able to run two loco’s simultaneously from his Mobile Station. I can run 5 loco’s from the same device (the 1,2 amps MS and the 18 VA transformer from the smaller start sets). At the same time I have two illuminated couches running, and steam in one of the loco’s. And it all runs well. I do realize that I have to invest in more power of I add one or two other things, but as long as things run well I just keep it this way. David, I infer from your text that you tried your setup with three or more locomotives. Does the system halt with ANY combination of these loco’s? If so, that would mean that either all your loco’s are extremely power-consuming (which seems unlikely), or that something is wrong with your MS/transformer.

It might be a good idea to look at the two voltage readings build into the mobile station, at different loads (1, 2 and 3 trains). If I remember well, you can get these reading when you go to the option menu. I could compare your findings with those of mine, if you like me to.

BTW for this type of purposes it is a great thing to have an build-in voltage meters. If this was not the case, each of us would have to use his or her own voltage tester. And this could be quite troublesome, since the signal is a complex one, meters might give total different readings, and we would have to discuss (expensive!) RMS metering and so on. It is much easier and cheaper to compare the build-in meter readings (even though we do not know how reliable these are, this is not too much of an issue here).

Secondly, the Dutch Märklin website seems to give some more detailed information concerning the power of the mobile station than the other language sites I looked at. In fact, it indicates that the power limitation in the smaller start sets is actually the small black transformer, not the small Mobile Station itself. Below, I translated this information. It is taken from www.marklin.nl/systems/faq.html, I just copy it for what it’s worth.

<ul><li> Mobile Station from the H0 start sets, in combination with the supplied small black transformer can handle a load of 18 VA and a maximum current of 900 mA. This is sufficient for 1 or 2 small Delta loco’s or loco’s with a 6080/6081 decoder. It is also sufficient for 2 to 3 small loco’s with a Hochleistungsantrieb or C-Sinus motor.</li>

<li>Mobile Station from the H0 start sets, delivered with the larger grey transformer or an existing 6647 or 6002 transformer, handle a load of Max 24 VA and a maximum current of 1,2 A (1200 mA). This is sufficient for 2 or 3 small Delta loco’s or loco’s with a 6080/6081 decoder. It is also sufficient for 3 to 4 small loco’s with a Hochleistungsantrieb or C-Sinus motor.</li>

<li>The separately supplied Mobile station (available later on) or the Gauge I start sets, combined with the supplied larger grey transformer or an existing 6002 transformer cvan handle a 38 VA load and a current of 1,9 A =1900 mA. This is sufficient for 3 or 4 small Delta loco’s or loco’s with a 6080/6081 decoder. It is also sufficient for 6 to 7 small loco’s with a Hochleistungsantrieb or C-Sinus motor.</li></ul>
Conclusion: this all seems to confirm David’s experience: no more that two loco’s in for the smallest combination. And a larger transformer would allow him to run some more trains. It remains strange, however, that many of us actually manage to run many more trains using the same set. (((hey, could it be that Märklin did not have the cheaper, 1.2 amps rated 60652 in stock and supplied many people the stronger, 2 amps rated 60651 unit, without telling them?.. just fishing… )))

Thirdly, I would like to raise the issue WHY we have two different mobile stations…. Märklin argues that this is a cost issue; the additional component cost would be so high that they decided to include a lower-power version with the cheaper start sets (www.maerklin.de/systems/index2.html).

I dare to question this claim. Although I very well realize that that there usually is a rather large multiplier between component price and the end user price of a device, it is hard for me to believe that this particular component (the power driver) would be so expensive that it makes up for the extra expenses on production and logistics on Märklin’s side. To be honest, I suspect that having two mobile station types is really a marketing issue, not a cost issue. Would be interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

Lastly, I was thrilled to read the suggestion to use a Delta station as a small booster. I have seen this suggestion before, but didn’t yet think of it in combination with the Mobile Station. Does anybody know what the actual output current (in amperes) of the Delta station is? I would like to know how this compares to the two versions of the mobile station. And any one knows how much current is the central station supposed to offer?

If my need for power grows, I might consider to use the ‘Delta booster’ for one part of my layout, and the regular Delta output for the other (being aware the first-time recognition of eventual MFX decoders has to take place at the latter part of the layout). Are there any issues concerning the transition track from the one part of the track to the other? What are the generals rules connecting tracks fed by different 6017 boosters, for instance?

Ok, sorry to take so much of your time and space. And so many questions. I’ll try to do that never again…

Regards, rudi

BTW, sorry Davy for overlapping with some things you stated earlier about the Dutch website... I overlooked that.

/rudi

Hi Lars,

Thanks for the reply. Good to hear the Delta puts out 2 amps, so if you have one lying around there is no more reason to invest in the more expensive 2 amps MobStation.

It's also interesting to read your reply on de Delta station as a booster while feeding another part of the track directly with the MobStation. This was indeed what I was wondering; whether voltage differences, timing delays or different ground levels would bring me into problems. Are there no problems if you would use two Delta controls, both receiving signals from the same MobStation and each feeding half of the layout? Though I do not expect to need more than 2 amps in short notice, you can now buy additional Delta units at ridiculous low prices.

regards, rudi

PS are you willing to share the URL of the German site you mentioned in this context?

I have used the 6604's extensively as boosters and I have had no problem with delay. I do have them all connected directly to the source (in my case an IB). Any delay that they might introduce would be compouned if you fed them successively, so I would definitely recommend not doing that.
I have, however, started a project of replacing them with the LDT boosters for several reasons. My main reason is that I use computer control and am spending more time away from the computer watching the trains. In the case of a computer crash the trains just keep running without control. I decided to make use of the LDT "Watchdog" to shut things down if the computer crashes, but that requires that you use real boosters with the watchdog as the first station after the CU. A second reason I'm changing is to get a little more current. Thirdly, I have had the nagging concern about the "Delta delay" and this eliminates it.

To add to your confusion of possible options to get more power to your digital layout: consider buying a 6021 brand new on ebay.de. These can be had for 90 euros or less. Gives you enough power, see perz's email, and can also be used in conjunction with your mobstat, with an adapter solution by Uhlenbrock or in time by a solution provided by Marklin....
Choices, choices...

Cheers, Bernhard

No, it is not so strange that David's MS can only drive 2 locos. His locos are all Delta, and rather big ones.

Five locos is possible with 6090x, C-sine or "Glockenancker" with high-efficiency decoders. With Delta, 2-3 locos is all you can expect to get.

Well, that would be in accordance with Märklin's claims and consistent with the measurements Perz presented. Nevertheless, there seem to be quite a few people (including myself) succeed to control many more loco's than that on their layout. I run two Delta's, three digital loco's (including a 37265 ET87 train with two LED-lighted couches), another two separate lighted coaches (two bulbs each) and one steam heater unit. This all runs simultaneously without any problems on a 'small' MobiStat and the small black 18 VA transformer. If I use Perz' findings on current draw, then I would be consuming somewhere close to 1.6 amperes (and even that is conservative and does not include the energy use of all the lights and the steam heater). Why does my 'small' 1.2 Amps MobiStat allow me to do this? (I'm not complaining but would like to understand )

The quite different experiences make me curious. Could it be that some 'small' MS do actually deliver more power? What event exactly makes the MS unit's circuitry decide to switch down? Depending on its internal circuitry, component tolerance, procuring component from different suppliers or using slightly different components all could have a significant consequence for the maximum power a unit actually can deliver.

Could it be explained by differences between individual MobiStats? Or differences between the transformers? Could the output of the 110V transformer be different from the 220V transformer? And how does the MobiStat (and, more particularly, its switch-down circuit) react to differences in the voltage of the transformer by which it is powered? Could it be that some loco's pose an off-phase load (capacitive or inductive)?

Today, I measured a 6090x loco and it drew 270 mA of power. That result is rather similar to that of Perz. However, I am hesitant to interpret such values. The thing is that a normal current meter only gives reliable readings if you are working with a sine wave. The Märklin digital signal, however, is not like a sine wave at all and is rather rectangular. I just made a picture from an oscilloscope (sorry for the horrible quality but it’s for illustration purposes only).




The only correct way to cope with such signals, I believe, is to use an RMS (root mean square) type meter. I used a Fluke 75 for the current measurement I just mentioned, but that’s no RMS meter (these things are rather expensive and I think most of us would prefer to have some extra nice loco’s instead).

So, I’m not sure how reliable to interpret the measurements and whether we could conclude from this how many trains you can run using a specific apparatus.

So, there are many questions left (or, many interesting things to be figured out). I would still be interested, however, to hear from David (and others’) about his voltage readings in the MS (both loaded and unloaded) and compare those with mine.

I would be happy to see your thoughts and comments

regards, Rudi

Hi Nico,

Good to hear that internal circuitry is DC. At least one hypothesis that we can skip. And good to hear that true RMS meaters got cheaper (well, I could have guessed this, prices of such things have been dropping a lot over the years).

Concerning true RMS, I'm not totally sure of what you say. We were discussing current measuring. The meter is connected in series with the load. If you would introduce a rectifier circuit there you would very much influence the circuit you are measuring (not at the least by introducing a voltage drop of at typically twice 0.6 volts for the diodes in the rectifier bridge). This while a current meter should be (virtually) invisible to the circuit, i.e. adding a voltage drop of a few thousands of a volts at most. Moreover, introducing non-linear components might not be anticipated by Marklins' designers and might have other effects too (ie. switching speed diodes, etc.)

There are also some other, more fundamental issues concerning true RMS metering and I'm not sure I can follow you in the workaround you suggest. But I guess that we better not bother the forum members with this and discuss that bilaterally (unless other readers like to get involved too in that discussion).

The main point that I want to make is that I think we must be quite careful when measuring and drawing conclusions from that. There is much we don't know. How is the max. output current of the MobStat defined (peak, average)? On what exact condition does the power shut down occur? To what degree does the MS behavior depend on its power input? Could MS-ses of the same type number have different characteristics? In addition, several things are actually more complex to measure than they might seem to be.

I don't want to cut the discussion or keep people from trying and measuring, but would suggest not to reach bold conclusions too easily. But I too am interested to learn the answers!

Do people at Märklin itself read this forum? Do they contribute at times?

Best regards and looking forward to learn more,

Rudi

Here is an update to my problem. I connected a 32VA transformer to the mobile station, and although I was able to start all 3 locos, it is very hard to keep them all going at the same time...

Case in point, when two locos have a red light and are waiting for the 3rd one to go through a specific area and make the lights green, at that point when those two start, the system goes into an overhaul... My guess is that it is drawing too much current and that's why it is stopping...

So I guess I have 2 other choices... Either try the booster with the delta trans, or buy a second station... I gotta tell you that doesn't seem too appealing to me...

At this point I think I have no choice but to sell some of the old locos and get new digital "Fuel Efficient" ones :)

I gotta say that you guys are awesome, I wasn't expecting so many answers, truly, thanks for all your help...

One last thing, do you guys know of a website or a place where I could find more info on the electrical part of the trains... I would be interested in finding out how to increase the power to a track, without the MS I guess and without being digital, just plain system... I obviously don't want to get into digital now and the big station from systems won't be out until the end of the year, so I need to find some sort of temporary solution until then... I'm pretty new on this, the only thing I know is that you can't connect two transfermers to the track, but that's about it...

Hi,

Yor very interesting discussion on current consumption made me test it with my CU and a few loks with delta, 6090x, and Faulhaber motor).

To measure the "real" current, it is important to note that the CU, MS, IB etc. produce an output voltage which is switched between +18 and -18 volts whith very rapid speed and in a more or less non-periodic sequence. Also, the "+" and "-" polarities do not appear equally often. Therefore, ususal ac ampere meters are not relieable. Perhaps the True-RMS-Meters, but I do not now whether they can cope with the rather fast pulse sequence (frequencies of several 10 kHz are qite common, and usual amp meters are specified for not more than a few 100 Hz)

But there is a simple solution: take a common analog DC multimeter and connect it to the "+" and "-" connectors of a strong enough rectifier bridge (I took four diodes BY 255 (= 1N5404) that can withstand 3 A). Then send the output current from your digital unit (the red cable) through the AC connectors of that rectifier. The fast polarity changes are removed from the meter in this way, and you will have an almost constant current through the DC meter: the current measurement is reliable. If you have an oscilloscope, test it.

To be honest, there is one drawback: the current drawn by an digital lok (delta, 8090x, Faulhaber) is not at all constant, but also pulsed due to the pulse width modulation of the decoder that controls motor speed! The frequency is much lower than that of the digital signal and does not have any polarity changes. Therefore any cheap analog DC multimeter will average out the changes i.e. you get a time-averaged current (this is not the same as True-RMS, but it has a definite meaning and does not cost more than 1 EUR for the diodes, provided you have an old fashioned, analog multimeter at your disposal)

With that method I could essentially reproduce what perz and davidrod have already explained. However, my locos doubled their power consumption under load: the 6090x lok needed 250 mA when running idle, but 500 mA when going uphill with a heavy train. A train of 5 illuminated passenger cars pulled by the 6090x lok consumed 750-800 mA. The Faulhaber powered lok was most economic: it required 120 mA (300 mT with load and steam generator on). The "winner" was a delta lok with 500 - 900 mA, the PA-doubletraction (2 high-efficiency motors) was also quite good (450 - 800 mA).

My conclusion: Current consumption depends not only on the loks, but also on the trains. It may happen that even can't get even 1 train out of your station with the 18 VA toy.

Best regards

Hans Martin

Nico,
the discussion about only one functional booster is correct, however, I don't understand the conclusion. Do you say I'm wrong when I say that the separately bought MobStat is 1.9 A and the one in most starter sets is 1.2 A? If I'm right, 1.9 A as master certainly helps.

/lars

---

Where is the fun in that??

According to my dealer there is no difference except one between the 1.2 and the 1.9. There is a different current limiter installed in the 1.2.

Ira

Marklin justifies this by telling that the heavier MobStat is too expensive for the cheap startersets. But in my opinion this is a commercial lie. There can hardly be any price difference between a 1.2 amp driver and a 1.9 amp driver.
Apart from that, it's much cheaper to produce only one version.

They should not do it because it's customer cheating[:(]