 Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 489 Location: Indiana, Kokomo
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What passenger cars from Marklin would be correct behind the red E19 in the late 30's? Thanks Mike Edited by user 24 January 2023 06:19:08(UTC)
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Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!! |
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The locos were delivered in the second half of 1939 or in 1940, so they didn't haul any trains in the early or mid 1930s. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
 1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
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Look for coaches from the DR (not the DB) from the late '30's? Also, if you find the lok in a Marklin catalog, many times they have a page illustrating their suggestions for the consist. I looked through my catalog collection and can't find the E19, but I don't have every catalog.
Good luck!
Brian
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1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,911 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Yes, but the early skirtted longer cars would go nicely too, like the later DR, or dark green early DB Adenour set. The DB did use the E 19 in the blue/cream colors for a time. It's in the E19 book by Roco with the museum woode boxed edition grey model. Also came in dark blue. I think also the blue skirted DB cars or Riviera express set perhaps goes well.
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
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When the DB used them weren't they reclassified as E119's? If so, wouldn't the DR coaches look better with the DR's E19 livery?
At the end of the day, it's up to the user regardless!
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
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I must be bored this evening... The 1997 catalog shows the 3469 (E19 12, in red) connected to the composition of two sets of 42751. Those are each using DR B4i, C4u and Pw4u coaches. I perused the 1989-1999 catalogs and don't see any other of those coaches sold individually (or any other DR longer coaches for that matter). https://www.marklin.com/...in-details/article/42751 I hope that helps some! Brian
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1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
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 Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Originally Posted by: ccranium  When the DB used them weren't they reclassified as E119's? If so, wouldn't the DR coaches look better with the DR's E19 livery?
At the end of the day, it's up to the user regardless! That did not occur until era 4 which was 1969 when they moved to computer lettering. The E19 remained labelled as such until then. The E 19 12 (in steel blue) was photographed with the F-train Gluckauf in 1955 for the DB, it was discussed recently here: https://www.marklin-user...n-Set-H0---Blauer-EnzianThe red livery was lost I think in 1950, so really you're looking at DR (DRB) wagons. The type 39 schurzenwagen are a good choice. Other standard express wagons of course would also be suitable, type 23 (pike) type 28 (steel), type 35 (streamlined) in era 2 DRG livery. Originally Posted by: ccranium I must be bored this evening... The 1997 catalog shows the 3469 (E19 12, in red) connected to the composition of two sets of 42751. Those are each using DR B4i, C4u and Pw4u coaches. I perused the 1989-1999 catalogs and don't see any other of those coaches sold individually (or any other DR longer coaches for that matter). https://www.marklin.com/...in-details/article/42751 I hope that helps some! Brian The 42751 set is not suitable because they are DRG livery up to 1937, which the E19 was not yet constructed, so wagons with DR livery are required. https://www.stummiforum....che-reichsbahn-quot.html |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
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 Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC) Posts: 4,430 Location: Attiki Athens Greece
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I am running mine with the consist of 43201,43211,43221,43231,43241,43251,43266 marklin era II cars and marklin 42229 era II set with 4 cars.The locomotive is the marklin 3769 upgraded with esu loksound V4 decoder.
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Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 489 Location: Indiana, Kokomo
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Thanks for the replies. I will have to do some more research. |
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!! |
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Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 The DB did use the E 19 in the blue/cream colors for a time. It's in the E19 book by Roco with the museum woode boxed edition grey model. I don't think so. AFAIK the E 19.1 class locos were retired early and did not see the blue/cream livery of the 1970s. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Originally Posted by: ccranium The 1997 catalog shows the 3469 (E19 12, in red) connected to the composition of two sets of 42751. Locos 3469/3769 show a museum livery of era IV or V, not the state of era II. Wrong loco if you want an authentic era II train. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,911 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Tom, the photo is a 1960's blue/cream livery, and was under restoration for the DB museum.
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Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Tom, the photo is a 1960's blue/cream livery, and was under restoration for the DB museum. Do you have a link? Are you sure it was an E 19 (only four units built)? Märklin only make E 19.1 (only two units built). The locos for the 1962 Rheingold were class E 10.12, not class E 19. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,911 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Sorry, you're correct Tom. I'm looking in the book now. #E 18 08, or E 110 #1, 2,5,6,08,09, and 18.
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Joined: 14/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 311 Location: New York City
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Hallo Dreileiters,
I am running Märklin Insider Hecht cars ( part of BR06 package ) They have prototypical DRG colors from 1940 so they looks pretty good with DRG Red Electric and those Reich Eagles are quite nicely reproduced on the side of the wagons ( similar to huge one on from of electric locomotive) Factory interior lights and passengers are great bonus too.
Hope this will help
Regards,
Märklineisenbahn
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Yes, the 42665 pike set is a good choice |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
1 user liked this useful post by applor
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 The 3469's prototype seems to be E19 12 in the 1995 catalog. '96 and '97 are the same. 3769 is also E19 12 39192 is E19 11 All three were/are sold in the red ERA II livery from their 1938 prototype's introduction into service. 37691 is E19 12 and was/is sold in the blue ERA III livery. So I suppose it depends on which model one buys to determine Era-correct coaches.
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Originally Posted by: ccranium The 3469's prototype seems to be E19 12 in the 1995 catalog. '96 and '97 are the same.
3769 is also E19 12
39192 is E19 11
All three were/are sold in the red ERA II livery from their 1938 prototype's introduction into service. 39192 has era II livery while 3469/3769 have era IV/V museum livery. E 19 11 was delivered in 1939, E 19 12 was delivered in 1940. 39193 looks much like 3469/3769. Märklin indicate era II and era VI, but the loco didn't look like that in era II. It is E 19 12. Originally Posted by: ccranium So I suppose it depends on which model one buys to determine Era-correct coaches. Depends on how critical you are about being "Era-correct". |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,043 Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
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D.A.Banks |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by: applor Hello Eric, Thanks for your reply which is very helpful to all. The Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft (DRG, a private corporation established 1920) carried colour schemes, lettering and insignia which are familiar to most, including the roundal lettering with Prussian eagle. Is there any evidence that this livery was not carried on some rolling stock from say 1938 to the end of the European war of 1939-45? In 1938 the corporation became wholly subject to the German Government politically as the Deutsche Reichsbahn (DRB) and then colour schemes, lettering and insignia were altered. The carry-over of old livery may well have lasted 6 years, depending on the importance and age of the rolling stock. In my model consists the old pre-1938 roundal liveried stock mixes without guilt with the 1938 DRB liveried stock. I guess it is each to their own. After May 1945, the occupying forces of Germany would have quite quickly erased the ensignia of both the Deutsche Reichsbahn liveries. I can imagine after 1948 that no traces would be found, except on goods wagons where there was less likelihood of political publicity or implications. Kimball Edited by user 25 January 2023 22:02:23(UTC)
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HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Anyway it is just a game,a perfect way to spend our free time,we do not need to be dogmatic,just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by: foumaro Anyway it is just a game,a perfect way to spend our free time,we do not need to be dogmatic,just my opinion. This thread is about "correct" coaches for a red E 19, without pointing out which red E 19. We just point out which coaches would be authentic. Then people can still decide about compromises they will take. This is not dogmatic and everybody decides how pedantic they make their choice. BTW: I bought a red E 19 in era III livery because I prefer that time frame. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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 Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Thanks for keeping it real Tom, I was not aware that a red E 19 existed in era III livery. That sounds exciting. What model number did you get and when did it run, and if you know, what routes? Cheers, Mark Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: foumaro ....
BTW: I bought a red E 19 in era III livery because I prefer that time frame. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Agree Foumaro, that we can obsessive about detail, but honestly that is one of the things I like about the game of history and its context. That said, I can appreciate any man or woman who enjoys the trains, and always curious what they mean both personally to them and what they can mean when we bring it forward into community. We have great memories of bringing our layout to shows and seeing the thrill of both adults and children who had never seen a train run on catenary and with semaphore signals in operation. That was a leap forward for anyone not previously exposed to them. We had a way of getting any kids to "run" the trains just by deciding when it would make its stop at any of three signals along the route. Some adults and history buffs would engage us with all kinds of curious questions, and that was what gave us the joy. Originally Posted by: foumaro Anyway it is just a game,a perfect way to spend our free time,we do not need to be dogmatic,just my opinion. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,481 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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I guess another set of cars that could be considered for this loco is the Insider car set for the Br01.10 Insider 2023 first loco.
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Hi all,
I'm finding this thread fascinating because I'm learning a lot about history and about various sources of information. I'm curious about the livery differences being described, in particular Tom's "museum livery" references and Marklin's and Wikipedia's references to "burgundy", red, and "red wine". How are they different (if they are)? Why would the museums restoring the 2 E19 survivors use a non-original livery (if they did)? I've noodled around out of curiosity and can't find any color images from 1938~1940, so I'm wondering what other source materials are out there for relatively new members to use for research of other historical questions.
Thanks for the help!
Brian
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hello Brian, Thanks for your interest. It is great to hear about other peoples perspectives. Can I start the ball rolling on this with 2 photos that are somewhat illustrative of things about which Tom talks knowledgeably. This is about the differences between E19s and the different paint schemes applied at different times of the E19s life. Photo 1: This is an E19.0 of which two were built. This shows the running livery of E19.02 in 1940. Märklin does NOT make a model of this engine but the picture is useful because the paint scheme is indicative.  Photo 2: This is an E19.1 of which 2 were built. This shows how E19.12 looked in 1947, in a fairly run down state (after the war) with one pantograph missing. Märklin does make a model of this engine and its sister E19.11 in various colour schemes including red.  The picture being black and white does not reveal the colour, but as shown in Philips reply below it was red until 1953. This topic was really about the coaches hauled. Can I point you to another forum topic on this theme which gives further descriptions: E19 reviewKimball Edited by user 29 January 2023 23:03:31(UTC)
| Reason: the colour of E19.12 till 1953 |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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I have the red museum E19 (39193) and I found a new 42356 Insider D12 Berlin - Stuttgart coach set for it to haul. The loco color is probably an era mismatch but I am flexible on that stuff.
These are beautiful coaches and they have become a favorite on my track. In reading about the history of the D12 I learned that it was sometimes hauled by E19s and I decided that was close enough. I added LED lighting and CC couplers to the coaches and with that pretty E19 out in front, it make a very handsome train. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,262 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Hello Brian, Thanks for your interest. It is great to hear about other peoples perspectives. Can I start the ball rolling on this with 2 photos that are somewhat illustrative of things about which Tom talks knowledgeably. This is about the differences between E19s and the different paint schemes applied at different times of the E19s life. Photo 1: This is an E19.0 of which two were built. This shows the running livery of E19.02 in 1940. Märklin does NOT make a model of this engine but the picture is useful because the paint scheme is indicative. ... Kimball Hi Kimble, I copy here my response to your reproduced post in another thread. My copy of photo 1 is from " Die Elektrolokomotiven bei der Deutschen Bundesbahn" The book is in German language text (but the photos are in English  ) :  The photo is annotated (via google translate) : " This rare photo from 1941 shows the E 19 02 in the delivery condition in red paintwork and with front aprons In Nuremberg. The front aprons were only removed in 1954, and they only kept the red paintwork until the beginning of 1947. In February 1947 they were painted in the green color that was common for electric locomotives at the time. While the E 1901 had been painted green since the summer of 1945, the E 1911 and 12 retained their original paint scheme until February 1953 and December 1952 respectively. Photo: Hofmeister Collection" Regards, Philip
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Originally Posted by: ccranium Why would the museums restoring the 2 E19 survivors use a non-original livery (if they did)? Maybe lack of accurate information. E 19.0 were delivered with red front skirts and red sandboxes. E 19.1 were delivered with black front skirts and black sandboxes. It seems they "restored" the red E 19.1 based on colour photos of the E 19.0. Nice try, but not the real state of era II. I think they were all "weinrot" (wine-red), but maybe there are different translations of this colour. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan I guess another set of cars that could be considered for this loco is the Insider car set for the Br01.10 Insider 2023 first loco.
Now that we have confirmed the red livery existed on the E19 12 until Dec 1952, yes they are an excellent option. Therefore in fact any of the early era3a wagons (ie. no m-wagons) would be suitable, of which there are many (just no type 35 or 39  ) Originally Posted by: dickinsonj I have the red museum E19 (39193) and I found a new 42356 Insider D12 Berlin - Stuttgart coach set for it to haul. I think you have the wrong catalogue number here, 42356 is "Odenwald Lieschen" passenger wagon set. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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Originally Posted by: applor I think you have the wrong catalogue number here, 42356 is "Odenwald Lieschen" passenger wagon set. Indeed I do - I intended to say 43256 D12 coach set. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Hello Kimball, Both you and Tom mention that Marklin made a model of the E19 with Era III livery in RED...I would love to know what the Marklin model number is and what kind of coaches an Era III Red E19 would have pulled. Some of the same I would guess, but it would be really interesting to see other prototypical photos if there are any around, to see more coaches or if there are other documents that might indicate what was pulled. Thanks for the informative posts ALL!! Someone doing a bit of weathering on their model without one panto would be bold. - Mark Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Photo 1: This is an E19.0 of which two were built.... [photo above] Photo 2: This is an E19.1 of which 2 were built. This shows how E19.12 looked in 1947, in a fairly run down state (after the war) with one pantograph missing. Märklin does make a model of this engine and its sister E19.11 in various colour schemes including red. The picture being black and white does not reveal the colour, but as shown in Philips reply below it was red until 1953. This topic was really about the coaches hauled. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by: Mark5 Hello Kimball, Both you and Tom mention that Marklin made a model of the E19 with Era III livery in RED...I would love to know what the Marklin model number is and what kind of coaches an Era III Red E19 would have pulled. Some of the same I would guess, but it would be really interesting to see other prototypical photos if there are any around, to see more coaches or if there are other documents that might indicate what was pulled. Thanks for the informative posts ALL!! Someone doing a bit of weathering on their model without one panto would be bold. - Mark Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow
……..The picture being black and white does not reveal the colour, but as shown in Philips reply below it was red until 1953.
This topic was really about the coaches hauled.
Hello Mark, The model numbers of the recent issue red E19 are 39192 and 39193. I believe all the red E19s made by Märklin had the same detail with the eagle ensignia. So no red model was made for era III. To suit early era III it might be better to remove the eagle insignia. This would have been taken off quickly after May 1945 by the occupying forces charged with running the railways. How quickly is now something unknown. Of course you can ignore that - it is your model railway. For the cars KiwiAlan and applor have given some nice recommendations above. So you could choose any era III cars that did not have the DB biscuit symbol on the sides. That symbol did not appear till 1956. I hope that is a start for you. Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Fleischmann made a model of E 19 12 in red for era III: 391903 is the ref. number for the AC version. No eagle.  The loco came with black front skirts, but I decided to remove them. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
4 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Thank you Tom and Kimball, Great photo Tom. Its now on my wishlist. However might be hard to find and fit in the budget this quarter. I did a search and got a bunch of 404s except my local Canucks graciously leave up discontinued items for reference. Smart marketing for their excellent service imho. You can see the the skirted beauty there. https://www.eurorailhobb...om/Fleischmann/FL-391903(Tangentially, a rumbling snowplow has just passed my by window.) Removed for aesthetics or do they get in the way of utility? Cheers, Mark Originally Posted by: H0 Fleischmann made a model of E 19 12 in red for era III: 391903 is the ref. number for the AC version. No eagle.
[.....]
The loco came with black front skirts, but I decided to remove them. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 431 Location: Stockton, CA
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Fleischmann also made an Era II E19 in red, with the eagle, for the Maerklin system around 2001 (#841 911). Equipped with a DCC decoder, it’s a great runner — much more quiet than Maerklin’s 3469/3769 — but doesn’t take too kindly to some of the Maerklin turnouts.
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