 Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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I notice some people refer to Marklin trains as 3 rail. This is incorrect. Marklin and even Lionel for that matter run on 2 rails just the same as any other rail system. The "3rd rail" isn't a rail at all, but a power pickup. It can resemble a rail like Lionel, but Marklin track has a thin bar (old Marklin track) and studs (modern track) that is referred to as a 3rd rail. Marklin track should be referred to as 2 rail with a center contact. There have been 2 rail systems with center contact in use in parts of the world. One is in the UK and another I believe in India. Many rail lines in the U.S. use an outside 3rd rail, but only 2 rails are used for the trail's wheels. This may seem a silly argument, but it just popped up out of curiosity.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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 Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC) Posts: 777 Location: England, London
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I believe you are wrong in your semantics. As a south Londoner I never knew growing up there was anything other than three rail: https://www.networkrail....ailway/track/third-rail/And the third rail is outside the two rail on which the driving wheels sit and there are miles and miles in this system Then there is the London Underground also three rail with centre power track. If you told a Londoner that his track should be referred to "as track which should be referred to as 2 rail with a center contact" He would think you have gone loopy and the red indicates says you cant even spell centre. WE can get into discussion -2 rail /3 rail. AC or DC but why bother we all know what we are referring to.
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1 user liked this useful post by Rwill
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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In Danish there is a tradition of calling DC 2 track and AC 3 track (track = "skinne" in Danish. So 2-skinne and 3-skinne).
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Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 489 Location: Indiana, Kokomo
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I also disagree in the semantics. Lionel track is 3 rails as there are 3 actual rails on the track. Early Marklin and even Hornby Dublo HO track had 3 solid rails on them. Current Marklin is 2 rails with center stud contact with its "rail" portion hidden below in the road bed out of sight. To me the "3 rail" set up be it a solid rail or stud contact is much easier to work with from an electrical standpoint, no reverse loop issues as seen with a true 2 rail set up. But its still 3 rail track when it comes down to brass tacks. |
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!! |
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 Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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3 rail is easy to say and not complicated and therefore I will continue to use it. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
3 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
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Originally Posted by: David Dewar  3 rail is easy to say and not complicated and therefore I will continue to use it. I agree David. I see 3 rail as a higher level concept, meaning a third power element is used, even if there are only two physical rails. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Both 2 and 3 rail have same power feeder. Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail. Three rail are when you feed minus to the rail and plus to the stud contact. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Goofy Both 2 and 3 rail have same power feeder. Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail. Three rail are when you feed minus to the rail and plus to the stud contact. Another incorrect post by Goofy 
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What the f**k are you talking about!??? 🤬🤬🤬 |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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 Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron I notice some people refer to Marklin trains as 3 rail. This is incorrect. Marklin and even Lionel for that matter run on 2 rails just the same as any other rail system. The "3rd rail" isn't a rail at all, but a power pickup. It can resemble a rail like Lionel, but Marklin track has a thin bar (old Marklin track) and studs (modern track) that is referred to as a 3rd rail. Marklin track should be referred to as 2 rail with a center contact. There have been 2 rail systems with center contact in use in parts of the world. One is in the UK and another I believe in India. Many rail lines in the U.S. use an outside 3rd rail, but only 2 rails are used for the trail's wheels. This may seem a silly argument, but it just popped up out of curiosity. So, you mean to tell me that our Club's magazine 'The 3rd Railer' is completely wrong even though it has been called that for nearly 50 years. Imagine if it was called 'The Thin Bar' or 'The Studs', it just doesn't have that ring about it. I'll stick with 'The 3rd Railer'!
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2 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,555 Location: Paris, France
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Hi
I watched this topic in bewilderment.
How can we become pedandic and so disconnected of simple thing as if some people just woke up after a 100 years sleep like the "Belle au bois dormant".
For many simple and stupid people like me, 3 rails, the root of our hobby (started around 1900) means
- central rail / stud power feed, usually 16 VAC
- for many years an AC power feed
Two rails as started by Fleischmann around 1953 (I think) means
- normal rails insulated from each other, mounted on "Presspahn" (sort of carton) and then on plastic
- for many years on DC power feed
And yes there are exceptions all over the place
- power may come from the mains with carbon lamps in series to reduce the voltage 110V or 220 V AC or DC
- accumulator operation since around 1910 low voltage (approx 4V) but quite dangerous because of the toxic "liquid"
- DC operation in 3 rails (like here in France with brands like JEP)
- of course studs replacing the central rail
- side rails replacing central rail like early VB here in France.
- of course, digital replacing AC or DC operation
Mainiature train is supposed to be fun. Please lets have fun and I hope I haven't offended anyone
Jean |
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10 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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Does it matter what you call something as long as we understand what is and to what we are talking about. Marklin is known as the three rail system by those who use it and by those who do not. Hornby users here call their system two rail even if at one time it was three. It appears that most or all in our hobby understand the meaning of two or three rail as it is today so no need to complicate matters. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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I think when people refer to track as 3-rail, they think of it as a "toy" for children to play with. Not so with 2-rail. People who run Marklin or Lionel would be offended if they were accused of playing with trains. 2-rail vs 3-rail seems to be a sensitive term.
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1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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 Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 1,291 Location: Port Moody, BC
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Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Goofy Both 2 and 3 rail have same power feeder. Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail. Three rail are when you feed minus to the rail and plus to the stud contact. Another incorrect post by Goofy In this case I have to agree with Goofy. What did he say wrong? The power feeder is the same in both systems having a positive and a negative. The difference is where you connect these 2 wires on a 3 rail and a 2 rail track. Perhaps his English could have been better by saying: Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail s. But hey, we all know his English is not the best and his message was clear enough
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2 users liked this useful post by PMPeter
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Originally Posted by: Rwill I believe you are wrong in your semantics. As a south Londoner I never knew growing up there was anything other than three rail: https://www.networkrail....ailway/track/third-rail/And the third rail is outside the two rail on which the driving wheels sit and there are miles and miles in this system Then there is the London Underground also three rail with centre power track. If you told a Londoner that his track should be referred to "as track which should be referred to as 2 rail with a center contact" He would think you have gone loopy and the red indicates says you cant even spell centre. WE can get into discussion -2 rail /3 rail. AC or DC but why bother we all know what we are referring to. What about the 4-rail system used on London underground that has an outside 3rd rail and an inside return rail? There are(were) several 4-rail lines used in the GB according to Wikipedia.
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Originally Posted by: PMPeter Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Goofy Both 2 and 3 rail have same power feeder. Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail. Three rail are when you feed minus to the rail and plus to the stud contact. Another incorrect post by Goofy In this case I have to agree with Goofy. What did he say wrong? The power feeder is the same in both systems having a positive and a negative. The difference is where you connect these 2 wires on a 3 rail and a 2 rail track. Perhaps his English could have been better by saying: Two rail are when you feed plus and minus to the rail s. But hey, we all know his English is not the best and his message was clear enough If you run DCC the two wires are not plus and minus. The same if you run analog AC.
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A picture.  |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 1,291 Location: Port Moody, BC
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Good grief. I can see this spiraling down the rabbit hole again. Perhaps instead of using +ve and -ve we should be using Maerklin's B and O or red and brown wires.
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PMPeter Good grief. I can see this spiraling down the rabbit hole again. Perhaps instead of using +ve and -ve we should be using Maerklin's B and O or red and brown wires. So true. Even Goofy's photo shows his goofs.
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 Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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When trains go the other direction.
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Sorry I asked! No need to be sorry. It was an honest question in my opinion.
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Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
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I agree also, the initial point about 3-rail is very valid. It also keeps us entertained here without getting serious.
To me the3-rail term is the same as calling Marklin, Digital. The major digital system is DCC. Marklin is MFX. This does not mean Marklin is not digital because it uses MFX.
The term 3-rail really means, 3 points of electrical contact for locomotives to run via the track. The third rail can mean, outside rail as in the UK prototype, middle rail, middle contact etc. 3-rail is a generic term for 3 electrical pickup points, AND THE BEST SYSTEM for electrical transmission for conductivity.
David
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PMPeter Good grief. I can see this spiraling down the rabbit hole again. Perhaps instead of using +ve and -ve we should be using Maerklin's B and O or red and brown wires. B and O are plus and minus. It’s same connection by feed the tracks. DC or AC whatever. Simple same way for the digital. Märklin tracks are two rail with stud contact. I believe Märklinist will start scream like coffee aunties now? 😂😂😂 |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bryan I agree also, the initial point about 3-rail is very valid. It also keeps us entertained here without getting serious.
To me the3-rail term is the same as calling Marklin, Digital. The major digital system is DCC. Marklin is MFX. This does not mean Marklin is not digital because it uses MFX.
The term 3-rail really means, 3 points of electrical contact for locomotives to run via the track. The third rail can mean, outside rail as in the UK prototype, middle rail, middle contact etc. 3-rail is a generic term for 3 electrical pickup points, AND THE BEST SYSTEM for electrical transmission for conductivity.
David In fact NO!! Märklin do only have two electrical pickup points because both rail equal as one electrical point. Both rail works like redirection. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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 What happens if a 3-rail track identifies itself as a 2-rail track?  Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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"We" must be bored. I have to say I really admire Goofy's ability to take so much flack from dissenters. Thanks for all your feedback Goofy. The forum would not be the same without you. As we say "Water off a duck's back". Do you have that expression too? I kind of like using the old minus and plus myself and find it a handy way to think of flow, even if it alternates. It helps to stay well grounded. |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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2 users liked this useful post by Mark5
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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I see no reason to praise Goofy. Again and again he says things that can lead people down the wrong track(!). This thread is no exception.
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 Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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The aliens skipped this planet, as there was no sign of intelligent life... |
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3 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,883 Location: Michigan, Troy
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I think it's partially a language barrier, and Goofy has his own way of transfering thought to words. I.E., by both outer rails working as a redirection, he means in essence that the reverse loop short is eliminated. Yes, there are still two wire connections with 3 rail as he said. Positive, and negative. Some think in an analytical dimension, and some in a quantative.
It doesn't mean one of us is smarter. Some are bettetr at math, some at language and spelling for example. Some are better with shapes, some with numbers. I think people better with shapes may be more artistic, and those with numbers more statistical. Those good at both, may be more likely to be engineers.
But I agree about the aliens. As in how mankind gets along with ourselves. Always the desire for control or power over others.
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2 users liked this useful post by marklinist5999
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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I hope we can remain positive and avoid negativity as much as possible. After all this is a forum for our beloved hobby. 
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2 users liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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I like Goofy. As a member here for years he keeps us going even if it can lead down the wrong road. Some of what he says here is correct and some wrong but I always read a Goofy thread just for all the fun it can bring.
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Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
5 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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I think some members are going off rail and some of us 3 rail enthusiasts are trying to keep the topic on track., another useless "word" topic
John |
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1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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Another picture.  |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Why the plus and minus signs when it's not DC?
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Why the plus and minus signs when it's not DC? Just regard them as instantaneous voltage on the AC sinewave or the digital signal. that way the thread will die.
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2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
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Location: Seattle area
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Technically, AC doesn't have a + or - wire; the Marklin outer rails are the "neutral" and the center rail or studs, or the catenary wire are the "hot" or "energized" rail. The hot wire's voltage varies between + and - at the system's frequency (usually 60hz in the US).
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Stud contact is not a rail! It’s differens. A rail is a rail. Märklin tracks are two rail with stud contact. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Why the plus and minus signs when it's not DC? Plus and minus are DC power feed. You can simple too feed Märklin tracks this way. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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2 users liked this useful post by Goofy
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Joined: 20/08/2020(UTC) Posts: 64
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Entertaining but useless. None of us will change the short and simple names fans all over the world use to describe the two physically apparent ways by which model trains pick up electricity (and data).
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3 users liked this useful post by PacoM
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PacoM Entertaining but useless. None of us will change the short and simple names fans all over the world use to describe the two physically apparent ways by which model trains pick up electricity (and data).
No the topic is very interested because Märklinist do have hard to understand what are Märklin track. Märklin tracks is not three rail because there is only two rail and stud contact. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: PacoM Entertaining but useless. None of us will change the short and simple names fans all over the world use to describe the two physically apparent ways by which model trains pick up electricity (and data).
No the topic is very interested because Märklinist do have hard to understand what are Märklin track. Märklin tracks is not three rail because there is only two rail and stud contact. On Maerklin M and C track the studs are part of the third rail that is situated under the track bed. The third rail is the power rail. On K track it's a bit harder to understand because the power rail is hidden in the sleepers to make the track look and feel like prototypical railway tracks. Also read Rwill's #2 post in this thread. Personally I don't care what you call it. Using the terms DC and AC for 2- and 3-rail, is probably better and easier - even though DC and AC is misleading when you run DCC.
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2 users liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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For Goofy. Just think of the third rail being a normal rail but cut into small parts called studs. Thus Marklin has three rails. Most rails have wheels on them but Marklin also have a slider which you could say is a type of wheel making contact with the third rail (Stud)
Im off for a lie down. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
2 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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How stupid of me: many, many years ago we had our layout for public viewing about 250km south of Perth (Western Australia) and we had a strange experience with one of our paying visitors: he entered the hall, paid the entry fee and than asked if the layout is 2 or 3 rail and my answer was 3 rail and he left apparently driving another 250km back to Perth,
I should have told him its 2 rail with studs in the middle.
John
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3 users liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: PacoM Entertaining but useless. None of us will change the short and simple names fans all over the world use to describe the two physically apparent ways by which model trains pick up electricity (and data).
No the topic is very interested because Märklinist do have hard to understand what are Märklin track. Märklin tracks is not three rail because there is only two rail and stud contact. On Maerklin M and C track the studs are part of the third rail that is situated under the track bed. The third rail is the power rail. On K track it's a bit harder to understand because the power rail is hidden in the sleepers to make the track look and feel like prototypical railway tracks. Also read Rwill's #2 post in this thread. Personally I don't care what you call it. Using the terms DC and AC for 2- and 3-rail, is probably better and easier - even though DC and AC is misleading when you run DCC. No! There is no third rail. The stud contact is not a rail. Stud contact on the Märklin tracks are B or + if you so like can call it, but never ever as rail. It’s difference. A rail is a rail and nothing else. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Originally Posted by: David Dewar For Goofy. Just think of the third rail being a normal rail but cut into small parts called studs. Thus Marklin has three rails. Most rails have wheels on them but Marklin also have a slider which you could say is a type of wheel making contact with the third rail (Stud)
Im off for a lie down. Stud contact is not a rail. It is a power feeder for the pick up shoes. Rail is a transport or support for the wheels. Rail works as power feeder too. We can call it + and-. Even to write B and O. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: David Dewar For Goofy. Just think of the third rail being a normal rail but cut into small parts called studs. Thus Marklin has three rails. Most rails have wheels on them but Marklin also have a slider which you could say is a type of wheel making contact with the third rail (Stud)
Im off for a lie down. Stud contact is not a rail. It is a power feeder for the pick up shoes. Rail is a transport or support for the wheels. Rail works as power feeder too. We can call it + and-. Even to write B and O. As mentioned before it is a correct and established fact that it can be a rail even without any wheel touching it. Like the British third rail and the Märklin 3600 type track where there is a solid center rail. The Copenhagen Metro also has three rails, two for the wheels and one for the for the pickup shoe. (Added later for clarification:) As we now have established the fact that a rail can be a solid metal power line it logically follows that even if we put the rail out of sight (as with C track and later M track) but make sure that the power from it can be accessed via parts of the rail protruding through the track bed so that the pickup shoes can receive power, then it is still a rail even though it is more or less hidden. I don't see anybody using + and - when dealing with Märklin AC and DCC.
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1 user liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,994 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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This is getting a bit out of hand - there's an old saying quite relevant here. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The term '3-rail' has become synonymous with Märklin in particular, but can also be used with regard to Lionel, Trix, Hornby-Dublo among others. As is well known in English, and other languages, one word can have different meanings. 3-rail of course goes back to the early systems where there were 3 actual "rails", two of which were used to guide the wheels and the third for power delivery. It's a term that has carried over for decades and many people are quite comfortable using the informal term 3-rail as a very easy description of the system. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to use their own description but ridicule of the informal use by others has no place in a gentleman's hobby. The specific use of the word 'rail' also has electrical accuracy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail |
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2 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: cookee_nz As a person involved with electronics for over 50 years, i have probably used the term 'rail' to apply to a power rail (even if it is a line on a schematic circuit) more times than I have referred to marklin as using '3 rail' track. So having centre studs as a 'power rail' is quite legitimate in describing the track as three rail - especially when isolating one of the running rails to sense train occupation of a section. So someone stick that in their pipe and smoke it. Time for a moderator to lock the thread methinks.
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5 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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