Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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I have noticed on many layouts; S-curves are used when a straight line or smooth curve could be used. Is this to add interest? It causes an un-natural look especially in trains pulling long passenger cars. The S-curve causes un-real overhang as the car transits and reverses in the curve.
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Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 570 Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  I have noticed on many layouts; S-curves are used when a straight line or smooth curve could be used. Is this to add interest? It causes an un-natural look especially in trains pulling long passenger cars. The S-curve causes un-real overhang as the car transits and reverses in the curve. A long S-curve can add scenic interest to a layout rather than a dead straight but as you say it looks unnatural when the ends of cars get badly our of line. If you have to use sharp curves even a short straight between them or if you are looking at a crossover between two tracks, can you use curved points so there is no reverse curve so stock looks better. On a previous layout I had a reverse curve where coaches fitted with Roco short couplings, which are similar but not identical to Marklin ones, would invariably uncouple as the coacxh ends would pull sideways in opposite directions. Bob M.
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Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Views messages in topic : 3,560 Location: Paris, France
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  I have noticed on many layouts; S-curves are used when a straight line or smooth curve could be used. Is this to add interest? It causes an un-natural look especially in trains pulling long passenger cars. The S-curve causes un-real overhang as the car transits and reverses in the curve. Hi Ron S curves are nice with large radii. They are not allowed in R1 as Märklin does not test nor guarantee this operation. The smallest allowed radius is R2. In R1 you must have a straight track between the curves. S curve operation is very unattractive when using small radii as long passenger cars are totally out of alignment and short coupling mechanisms are at or beyond their operating angles. Cheers Jean |
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 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,049
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All model railroad curves are too small in radius except maybe on some giant layouts. Small layouts require small radii but I agree an unnecessary S curve is visually and operationally not a good idea. A good rule of thumb is to use tighter curves where you only view the train from inside the curve. The distance between cars will still look okay.
Regards Roger |
Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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 3 users liked this useful post by rbw993
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 497 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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I have an S curve without any straight track in between on my "mountain" station about 12 centimeters (5 inches) above the main layout. It's a reverse loop (with R1 C tracks) so the trains go up and down on the same track. It doesn't give me any problems with Maerklin cars and locomotives and also not locomotives from Piko, Roco and ESU. With other brands of locos and cars I've sometimes been forced to make adjustments and take precautions not to get derailments.
Ideally I should rework the section in a future project.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Views messages in topic : 3,560 Location: Paris, France
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Hi S curves pose problems on long cars with the needed angle on the coupling that may exceed the permitted angle Cheers Jean |
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 3 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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I have an S Bend on my layout, but it is subtle & looks good. It is a mountain scene. 
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 8 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Originally Posted by: Toosmall  I have an S Bend on my layout, but it is subtle & looks good. It is a mountain scene.
It looks like you have some straight section in between the curved track.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,201 Location: Kerikeri
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When I was about 8 years old, I used to love lying down watching the 50's coaches negotiating my 5117 points. Didnt know any difference then but it was fun. |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
 2 users liked this useful post by dominator
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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If you have the room have a variable rate of change, it looks better. So large radius, tight radius, large radius, straight, reverse large radius, reverse tight radius, reverse large radius.
Knock up a test section and manually push your longest carriages through to see what overhang you are prepared to live with.
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 3 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
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I have a very gentle S curve on my "West River" section but I used flex track to get the effect I wanted.  |
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 3 users liked this useful post by rschaffr
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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I imagine railroads lay track in as straight a line as possible as curves increase the cost of building. There are stretches of track in Australia that are straight for almost 300 miles
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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Then there are more long straight bits after slight kinks in the track. The same with our longest straight road, after slight kinks then there are more straight bits. I think something has to give, even in Z gauge! 
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 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,470 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  I imagine railroads lay track in as straight a line as possible as curves increase the cost of building. There are stretches of track in Australia that are straight for almost 300 miles Well, one stretch of single track that I am aware of, across the Nullabor Plain. I don't think there is any other single straight stretch that approaches that length.
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,277
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A long S-curv are far better than short S-curv because of the train length. In fact does short train set fit better for the short S-curv. In the real world prototype does narrow gauge trains work good with the short S-curv. It´s all matter about train models. Short wagons are excellent for the short S-curv. It also depend of the layouts size in the room. What you need is to test and practice. |
H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan  Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  I imagine railroads lay track in as straight a line as possible as curves increase the cost of building. There are stretches of track in Australia that are straight for almost 300 miles Well, one stretch of single track that I am aware of, across the Nullabor Plain. I don't think there is any other single straight stretch that approaches that length. Actually the Nullarbor is very short, the scenery changes very quickly. The road is closer to the coast. In 2019 I drove from Sydney to Perth to pick other half up from the airport flying in from Germany. We wanted to continue our trip around the block from the previous year. We have done part of the Indian Pacific & then the Gahn. As the trains travel through the night you miss out seeing half the trip's scenery. One of the views you don't get from the train:  I reckon that with a bit of artistic licence it would be worth shifting the railway line a touch closer to the coast on a model.
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 2 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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S-curve in uppercase  |
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 3 users liked this useful post by PeFu
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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I had to put an S curve in because there was a road in the way! 
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 3 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Originally Posted by: Toosmall  I had to put an S curve in because there was a road in the way!  In your case, an S curve was necessary in order to incorporate a return loop without crossing the road. The only places where I have seen S curves is where a rail line follows a river, as on the Rio Grande and Hudson river NY central track. As I said, railroads avoid S curves where possible due to cost. On a model railroad, it adds interest.
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 2 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Originally Posted by: Toosmall  Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan  Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  I imagine railroads lay track in as straight a line as possible as curves increase the cost of building. There are stretches of track in Australia that are straight for almost 300 miles Well, one stretch of single track that I am aware of, across the Nullabor Plain. I don't think there is any other single straight stretch that approaches that length. Actually the Nullarbor is very short, the scenery changes very quickly. The road is closer to the coast. In 2019 I drove from Sydney to Perth to pick other half up from the airport flying in from Germany. We wanted to continue our trip around the block from the previous year. We have done part of the Indian Pacific & then the Gahn. As the trains travel through the night you miss out seeing half the trip's scenery. One of the views you don't get from the train:  I reckon that with a bit of artistic licence it would be worth shifting the railway line a touch closer to the coast on a model. Sidney to Perth; that is quite a trip.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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Have a look at the satellite view of the railway line through the Blue Mountains west of Sydney. It is constant S bends, plus tunnels. I have travelled this line a handful of times. Originally it had a zig zag line to get over the Blue Mountains. https://en.m.wikipedia.o...wiki/Blue_Mountains_LineWest of the Blue Mountains is a miserably cold place, not the hugh minus temperatures that other countries get, but the damp wet cold to the bones, which runs all the way up on the west side of the Great Dividing Range up to and into southern Queensland at times. Yes, snow in Queensland. God's own country, 'sunshine one day, perfect the next' as Queenslanders say. The western line out of Sydney has some great little stations, you ask for the train to stop at the minor stations & on the station you flag the train down. This is the only main line west out of Sydney. Blayney is a lovely little station in a miserably cold place which will freeze the nuts off a brass monkey.  The line through the this area is full of S bends. You have to put yourself into a meditative state or you will go mental if you are impatient. I actually went from Sydney to Orange to look at out current new car, 268km one way. I jokingly said to the car dealer that Sydney to Dubai return is quicker. Went back to Orange a few weeks later to pick up the new car. But at the end of the day all these S bends make this trip very slow. Electric trains stop at Bathurst, almost as cold!
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 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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I would say S-curves in the prototype are pretty common wherever you have a challenging landscape with water and/or mountains. In the pic below (from the Degermyr–Vännäs line in northern Sweden), the S-curve is applied for managing a climb to a higher elevation.  |
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 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
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Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC) Posts: 252 Location: England, Guildford
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron  Originally Posted by: Toosmall  I had to put an S curve in because there was a road in the way!  In your case, an S curve was necessary in order to incorporate a return loop without crossing the road. The only places where I have seen S curves is where a rail line follows a river, as on the Rio Grande and Hudson river NY central track. As I said, railroads avoid S curves where possible due to cost. On a model railroad, it adds interest. The Portsmouth Direct line between Guildford and Havant in Southern England is all reverse curves because it was cheaper to build it that way to traverse the hilly terrain. After Guildford it has one tunnel, South of Petersfield, which is ‘S’ shaped as well. It came later than the main round of railway building when improved locos could cope with curves and gradients, nevertheless this (electrified) route has line speeds of 70 to 85 mph today and plenty of flange lubricators to reduce wear on the high rails. If you stand in the corridor connection between two coaches it can be quite alarming as the coaches suddenly move away from each other laterally and then line up again only to violently move away in opposite directions. ChrisG
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 480 Location: USA
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The dreaded S curve. Need them to connect 2 panels and keep access. Lower S curves combine R1 and R2 track, so newer (close) couplers work. Upper (metal) overpass comes only in R1 radius, but works with older (relex) couplers; not suitable for extra long cars and CCs.  |
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 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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Let me correct myself. S-curves may be necessary depending on the terrain. Although it may be cheaper to lay straight track it may not be cost effective to straighten out terrain. It all has to be at a case-by-case basis which I'm sure railroad executives are well aware of. On my layout, I'm using M-track which has pretty tight curves. S-curves look bad using M-track. Adding a straight section of track between reversing curve tracks helps minimize the excessive overhang.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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If you can't do S bends an alternative is a Z, somewhere I have heard of Z failures everywhere! Plenty of videos on the internet of the only Z system which still functions! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zig_Zag_RailwayZig Zag Railway is an Australian heritage railway, situated near the town of Lithgow in the state of New South Wales. It was opened by the not-for-profit Zig Zag Railway Co-op. Ltd. as an unpaid volunteer-staffed heritage railway in October 1975, using the alignment of the Lithgow Zig Zag line that formed part of the Main Western line between 1869 and 1910. The line climbs the western flank of the Blue Mountains, using railway zig zags to gain height.
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Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC) Posts: 635 Location: Sydney
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I believe every layout needs a bit of straight track & a few S bends to look better than your mistress (as a boat moored near us is call 'Mistress Again', when they sail her on the weekend they give her a good hammering and score medals!) Even better, add a few S bend roads, it looks good and roads are easy to spray out of 150ml touch up cans with grey, white and black pre heated, pre mask the white road markings with Letraset if you can still get it or finely cut masking tape. Z gauge:  
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 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
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Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC) Posts: 326 Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
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I agree with S-curves as they add interest, but on a small layout, the abrupt change creates an un-natural overhang of long cars. Super large layouts can afford to use large radius curves, but on small layouts we are confined to tight radius curves. On European layouts, the 4-wheel short wagons take S-curves better than long 2-truck passenger cars.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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What a great topic when applied to model railroading!! Functional, technical issues versus aesthetic choices... If you want to have pure ovals and straight track that is your choice and they have great interest such as above posts. So many personal choices and for good reasons all on our own. HOWEVER... when what I call "MMRIP" is in play, (Miniature Model Railroading Infinite Possibilities and then Rest in Peace) the S-curve is a staple issue in the world of Art and we would have to argue with masters of ancient Greek sculpture to do away with it. Praxiteles himself was a fan. If you want to get fancy you could tell complainers that you have a thing for "contrapposto" and it will make your layout a bit more sexy. In my view the invention of flex track was a gift to landscape creativity on MMR layouts. Gently weighted tilted hips in sculpture is also seen in landscape, it slows down the eye and invokes desire. And don't tell me that anyone here does not love trains! XD Here are few short accessible articles on the subject. I like this one on painting because I always think of the overall landscape of the layout as a kind of painting. She quotes William Hogarth definition of the curve; “[A] Notion in compositional theory that objects arranged on an S-shaped line suggest grace and beauty.” https://nancyreyner.com/2011/05/13/the-s-curve/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-curve_(art)A bunch more references here: https://hyperleap.com/topic/S_Curve_(art) |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Originally Posted by: Toosmall  I believe every layout needs a bit of straight track & a few S bends to look better than your mistress (as a boat moored near us is call 'Mistress Again', when they sail her on the weekend they give her a good hammering and score medals!)
Even better, add a few S bend roads, it looks good and roads are easy to spray out of 150ml touch up cans with grey, white and black pre heated, pre mask the white road markings with Letraset if you can still get it or finely cut masking tape.
[...] How would we drive through the Italian mountains without a few switchbacks and serpentine hill climbs? Good shots Toosmall! |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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