Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
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Did read in the Facebook somebody did wrote that pick up shoe does only have contact on three stud contact.
I have seen myself with my locomotive with the pick up shoe do have contact on four stud contact on the tracks.
They also wrote that there is more contact with the wheels by use two rail system than three rail.
What do you think about pick up shoes on the stud contact? |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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I think I see more track-cleaning cars on two-rail layouts than on three-rail layouts. Why is that so?
With the up and down on turnouts, the slider may have contact with two studs only, assuming it is an old-style slider. On level track, there may be contact with six or more studs.
Sometimes the contact problems are between axle and loco frame.
Two-rail locos usually have sliders at the wheels. Those can become dirty and also lead to problems. A part that does not exist in old-style three-rail locos.
I'll stick to three-rail even if there should be evidence that two-rail has better contact. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
 6 users liked this useful post by H0
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 Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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Had two rail many years ago and locos are far better on three rail. There is of course some extra noise but worth that for better running. Pick up shoes need cleaned and adjusted at times. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
4 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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 Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,919 Location: Auckland,
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There are always people in the two rail fraternity willing to spread myths of the superiority of their system.
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2 users liked this useful post by mvd71
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand
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I would hope that people would be mature and beyond babbling on about the superiority of their system - alas not!
This whole 3 rail vs 2 rail thing is all a bit silly, and we get a bit of it going on here - usually from the 2 rail guys to the 3 rail guys.
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4 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz  I would hope that people would be mature and beyond babbling on about the superiority of their system - alas not!
This whole 3 rail vs 2 rail thing is all a bit silly, and we get a bit of it going on here - usually from the 2 rail guys to the 3 rail guys. It was a Märklinist who did present fact about information. What babbling? Märklinist did complain too about pick up shoes on the stud contact. How many stud contact does pick up shoes do have? |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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 Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC) Posts: 495 Location: Oakville, Ontario
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Originally Posted by: Goofy How many stud contact does pick up shoes do have? On straight track with a straight pick-up shoe (slider) it depends on the length of the slider. Every stud under the pick-up should be in contact with it. Harold.
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Originally Posted by: Goofy It was a Märklinist who did present fact about information.
What babbling? It was Goofy who did not present a link. Where are the facts? Where is verifiable information? |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Goofy It was a Märklinist who did present fact about information.
What babbling? It was Goofy who did not present a link. Where are the facts? Where is verifiable information? Facebook marklinofsweden |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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 Originally Posted by: Goofy
Facebook
marklinofsweden
I have now looked one year back on Martin's Facebook page, without finding anything like this? Could you please be a little more specific? Per |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Goofy Facebook
marklinofsweden This is not a link to the specific information. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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Some like two rail and others like those on Marklin like three rail. Each to his own and why not leave it like that. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
5 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
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 Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
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Dear All
This discussion on 2 rail versus 3 rail always comes up and there are very simple facts about it.
The 3 rail system picks up the current with a wiping action on the middle stud, which in itself is constantly cleaning the contact with this action. Also the return current flows through all the wheels, including the rolling stock via the couplings in some cases, again a very good contact.
With 2 rail you are relying on a rolling contact, on at the most 4 wheels and many just two. Also the return is in the opposite wheel sets only.
At the end of the day a wiping contact is far better than than a rolling contact, it’s just electrical physics.
David
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2 users liked this useful post by Bryan
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 Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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The answer to the question is: FALSE
Goofy actually answered part of his own question in his initial post.
The statement was that slider only makes contact in 3 places is refuted as Goofy observed 4.
Furthermore, given the same wheel configuration (say 3 axles) a 2-rail loco has potentially 2 x 3 contact points. A 3 rail loco has 6 potential contact points PLUS however many contacts the slider provides. The entire circuit will only be as good as the worst contact set, and (as pointed out above) the slider is superior to wheels. So the choice is between 3 + 3 wheels or 6 wheels plus the slider contacts. |
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Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC) Posts: 70 Location: Toronto
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When it comes to the question "how many pukos are in contact with the slider" comes up, the answer is simple. "One is a great step above none", and "one is good enough for me".
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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It depends on the sliders length, the old class 44 had 2 small sliders, whereas other newer steamlocos e.g. 01 097 had a much longer slider., all my electric 2 rail locos have either 4 or 6 contacts on the wheels, as Tom said: they also can get dirty (getting dirty when you oil them and then all the grime sticks to it., a typical Märklin failure of contact between the frame and the bogie in earlier models, either diesel or electric was the 2 different metals between the frame and bogie, when you take them apart you can clearly see the electrical dark contact engravings caused by the 2 different metals, to avoid this contact failure I'e soldered a wire direct to the bogie., the only reason I buy 2 rail electric locos is they have an extra powered axle where as a 3 rail version has to have the slider and a non powered axle.
everything else is unfounded, myth and total misguidance and I would recommend stick what you know, stick what you happy with and don't stick your nose into something you don't know about it and don't forget there is a solution for every man made problem.
If you're not happy with 2 or 3 rail you always could try a wind up or battery operated loco or use a powerpack to keep your locos running.
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3 users liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz The answer to the question is: FALSE
Goofy actually answered part of his own question in his initial post.
The statement was that slider only makes contact in 3 places is refuted as Goofy observed 4.
Furthermore, given the same wheel configuration (say 3 axles) a 2-rail loco has potentially 2 x 3 contact points. A 3 rail loco has 6 potential contact points PLUS however many contacts the slider provides. The entire circuit will only be as good as the worst contact set, and (as pointed out above) the slider is superior to wheels. So the choice is between 3 + 3 wheels or 6 wheels plus the slider contacts. There is dirt and oxid on the stud contacts too, which make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives with the pick up shoes. Forget about wheels on the rail about Märklin, it is stud contact and pick up shoes we discuss. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Goofy
There is dirt and oxid on the stud contacts too, which make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives with the pick up shoes.
Forget about wheels on the rail about Märklin, it is stud contact and pick up shoes we discuss.
In my experience there is far, far less dirt and oxidation on the studs than on the rails (and wheels). And it's wrong to say that the studs and pick up shoe "make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives".
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2 users liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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this whole thread is yet another waste of people's time. |
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5 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Originally Posted by: Goofy There is dirt and oxid on the stud contacts too, which make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives with the pick up shoes.
Forget about wheels on the rail about Märklin, it is stud contact and pick up shoes we discuss. Rust on the centre-rail is a real problem if tracks have not been used for a long time. Running a good loco a few rounds at full speed resolves that problem. No issue if tracks are used frequently. Locos with traction tyres are a real problem on two-rail track. No self-cleaning done by running trains. I don't like to admit it, but sometimes (once every leap year) the outer rails of three-rail track require cleaning. Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz this whole thread is yet another waste of people's time. Administrators can lock threads, but they can also lock user. One way or other the issue will be resolved. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
2 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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I think with every topic we learn something, there is always something that is useful regardless with some of us: know all", been there, it is for those who have had troubles in the past and haven't figured it out: why ? with us more experienced members, we can pin point most troublesome issues and also give explanation, solutions how to fix these problems and why they occur., I could mention several problems with sliders, not necessary Märklin sliders but Roco pick up shoes but the problem hasn't been mentioned it here so I'll leave this for another day., keeping trains running has been a good outcome on our layout and it was only 3 days ago I've cleaned the wheels and pickup shoe of some of our smaller locos and we may have to look at reducing the voltage on our ESU Command station; track middle contact points are also different between M - K or C -track
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1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Goofy
There is dirt and oxid on the stud contacts too, which make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives with the pick up shoes.
Forget about wheels on the rail about Märklin, it is stud contact and pick up shoes we discuss.
In my experience there is far, far less dirt and oxidation on the studs than on the rails (and wheels). And it's wrong to say that the studs and pick up shoe "make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives". I wouldn´t say like that! I have seen video in the Youtube how Märklinist present so much dirt on the Märklin tracks and they show how to clean stud contacts too and there is really lot of dirt too. In fact...pick up shoe do have bad contact on the dirt stud contacts. The more dirt the lesser stud contact on the pick up shoe. I have seen pick up shoe do have contact on three-four stud contact but the question is if this are enough? I was forced to by clean stud contact to avoid locomotive in slow speed interrupt on the track. Not only rail cleans too. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz this whole thread is yet another waste of people's time. Administrators can lock threads, but they can also lock user. One way or other the issue will be resolved. In fact...no they can´t when we explain one of the common problem in the model railway world. As always we do have discuss in the forum about problems and how to solve problems. Do you even complains about tip in the Youtube when there is Märklinist present how to solve problems with the Märklin tracks and turnouts? |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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I don't think from previous experiences (over 50 years) it was ever a problem whether 3 or 4 pukos touched the slider., you only need 1 puko to touch the track and you have an electrical contact., sometimes it can be confused with no wheel contact especially over double turnouts with small shunting locos., in your topic it doesn't say what the problems suppose to be or what the original person meant by it., it would make more sense if someone would have written what do you think of 3 wheels instead of 4., personally I cannot see the slightest problem whether your slider touches 3 or 4 pukos. |
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1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Goofy
There is dirt and oxid on the stud contacts too, which make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives with the pick up shoes.
Forget about wheels on the rail about Märklin, it is stud contact and pick up shoes we discuss.
In my experience there is far, far less dirt and oxidation on the studs than on the rails (and wheels). And it's wrong to say that the studs and pick up shoe "make worse contact for the Märklin locomotives". I wouldn´t say like that! I have seen video in the Youtube how Märklinist present so much dirt on the Märklin tracks and they show how to clean stud contacts too and there is really lot of dirt too. In fact...pick up shoe do have bad contact on the dirt stud contacts. The more dirt the lesser stud contact on the pick up shoe. I have seen pick up shoe do have contact on three-four stud contact but the question is if this are enough? I was forced to by clean stud contact to avoid locomotive in slow speed interrupt on the track. Not only rail cleans too. In my experience with C track dirt on the pukos isn't a problem. I just wiped a length of track with a piece of paper pressing down with three fingers and, yes, there was a heavy black streak of dirt from the pukos and less from the tracks. This length, around a meter or so (three feet) is heavily run by trains and the outer tracks have been wiped a few times over a couple of years. The middle track hasn't been cleaned, apart from maybe a wipe over after finishing the landscaping and track laying. And this length of track has never caused any issues with trains stopping (not saying that there aren't occasional issues other places of course). This probably proves the saying that the more you run your trains the less contact problems you'll have... at least what goes on with the pick up shoes and the pukos because the slider will constantly wipe the studs. Conversely tracks that have seen little use for a long time will tend to have dead spots that'll usually disappear after been run over a few times with a locomotive a some speed. I guess that two-rail people have similar issues and experiences. A funny thing about slider and puko contact happened to me yesterday. A steam loco constantly stopped when at slow speed in a hidden, but accessible, part of the layout. I did all the usual stuff, cleaning and rubbing with a graphite stick to no avail. Upon closer inspection I discovered a blob of hardened PVA glue on one of the pukos. Other locomotives didn't have problems with this but this particular loco with a fairly long slider seemed to get the slider lifted up so much that it lost power momentarily, cutting the sound but not stopping at medium speed, and completely stopping at slow speed. Removing the blob solved the problem of course.
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3 users liked this useful post by Copenhagen
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,467 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Goofy
I wouldn´t say like that!
I have seen video in the Youtube how Märklinist present so much dirt on the Märklin tracks and they show how to clean stud contacts too and there is really lot of dirt too.
In fact...pick up shoe do have bad contact on the dirt stud contacts.
The more dirt the lesser stud contact on the pick up shoe.
I have seen pick up shoe do have contact on three-four stud contact but the question is if this are enough?
I was forced to by clean stud contact to avoid locomotive in slow speed interrupt on the track.
Not only rail cleans too.
You keep saying "I have seen ..." but never provide links to the videos or whatever to provide evidence of what you are claiming. At some point you need to back up your claims, because no-one else is having such problems with dirt on the pukos. So if you want people to believe you provide some links to what you have been watching, otherwise we will just think it is unsubstantiated rumour.
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3 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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 Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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I dont know why you guys say that the slider connect with more than 2 pukos.
When stopped, I doubt that the slider touches more than 2 pukos. I cant see how that is mechanically possible. (Like trying to set the 4 legs of a chair on rough ground; It will always ever only touch on 3...)
Even with a perfectly level slider, and a strech of pukos equally straight, there will always be a micro-variation so that the current only flows through 2 points. (Our sliders and track isnt always totally straight -to say the least!)
When moving -because of the sping-mechanism of the slider- I understand that it can touch up to 3 pukos, while sliding forwards. It is probably an alternating stream of 1-2-3 contact-points, until a dreaded 0 contact-points point is reached... |
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2 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa I dont know why you guys say that the slider connect with more than 2 pukos. Newer wipers of the whisper type use a thinner and somewhat flexible material, so there may well be three or more contact points. Maybe scientists should research this. Could high-speed cameras be of any value? How can you show where current flows? Maybe feed each puko separately and measure the current. Sounds like an interesting project, but I don't have time for it. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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 Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 1,156
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In the old Märklin Service manual 0733, Märklin state the following: (this for information only)  Personally, I'm not too concerned by this, as long as the locomotive runs fairly nicely. marklinofsweden has released a new interesting video
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2 users liked this useful post by bph
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Goofy
I wouldn´t say like that!
I have seen video in the Youtube how Märklinist present so much dirt on the Märklin tracks and they show how to clean stud contacts too and there is really lot of dirt too.
In fact...pick up shoe do have bad contact on the dirt stud contacts.
The more dirt the lesser stud contact on the pick up shoe.
I have seen pick up shoe do have contact on three-four stud contact but the question is if this are enough?
I was forced to by clean stud contact to avoid locomotive in slow speed interrupt on the track.
Not only rail cleans too.
You keep saying "I have seen ..." but never provide links to the videos or whatever to provide evidence of what you are claiming. At some point you need to back up your claims, because no-one else is having such problems with dirt on the pukos. So if you want people to believe you provide some links to what you have been watching, otherwise we will just think it is unsubstantiated rumour. As i did wrote...Youtube presents fact with the videos. Can you see the provide now?  Yes Märklinist do have problems with the puckos on the tracks, because of the dirt cause by of oxid. There is problems with the pick up shoes too and must clean there too. The more dirt and the lesser contact on the stud contacts. In the model railway there is always necessary to clean the tracks in both 2 and 3 rail system. |
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DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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I think we are all aware that we need to clean tracks and sliders from time to time. For me Marklin are better than others for running qualities and I dont see any problems. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Fortunately our human brain has the capacity to sort out problems, most the time problems are written on paper, emails and media outlets, if everybody uses their brain problems can be solved quite easily or you asked someone who has a brain to work it out., a problem like: I've spilled a glass of water: the problem is the floor is now wet, the answer is you wipe it dry or you state your problem on a forum and stating the fact the floor is wet and how can I solve the problem.
I personally could tell you hundreds of problems I've experienced a.) you could think: he has got a problem, b.) I've heard this problem before, c.) what is he going to do about it, d.) Its not really my problem, e.) lets have a lenghtly discussion about problems or you heard enough and you close the page and I don't have a problem with this. |
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2 users liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: river6109 a.) you could think: he has got a problem, b.) I've heard this problem before, c.) what is he going to do about it, d.) Its not really my problem, e.) lets have a lenghtly discussion about problems or you heard enough and you close the page and I don't have a problem with this. Yes; but this must be a case f.) Goofy thinks he's seen somebody having a problem, and then wants us to solve this problem.  Unfortunately he can't tell us who had the problem, how the problem shows up or how the problem affects this person's life; he just keeps claiming that the problem is existing, without any proof.............  One of the most funny "problems" he came up with was detonations in AC power systems............. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. |
3 users liked this useful post by Purellum
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,225 Location: Montreal, QC
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It is important to remember that in Maerklin, the slider contacts the studs, which transmit the power by wire to the electrics/electronics of the model. The return (ground) is conducted to both rails by means of the wheels, often by the metal housing itself.
In most DC models, power is collected from each rail, one + and one -. The wheels are in contact with the rails and little contacts are required to conduct the power from the wheels to the innards. Some may have used the chassis for one pole, but this often proved to be problematic in a derailment when the body was in contact with the other track or with a model that was inverted in direction and thusly had the chassis polarized the other way.
In a Bo-Bo model (Re 4/4II) type, it can often mean that power is collected from one rail on the lead bogie and from the other rail on the trailing bogie. If the model has traction tires, this means that perhaps 3 of 4 wheels on a particular bogie are used for current collection.
When we compare the two, this means that a Maerklin slider will most likely have a greater contact with multiple studs than a DC model with contacts on the wheels.
I started out modelling with Canadian Triang (Hornby) DC models. As I got older and was exposed to Swiss trains, I switched to Maerklin models as there was more SBB models for that system and we already had a basic selection of Maerklin track. The Maerklin have always been mechanically and electrically/electronically more reliable, but I presume that technology and other factors have levelled the playing field in many aspects.
Regards
Mike C
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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It is obvious with Märklin, some of the issues they have with different metals they've never solved it or corrected the problem, there are other manufacturers who use sliders made of stainless steel and they are useless with Märklin steel pukos, it is usually a combination of 2 different metal coming into contact with and of course there is the oxidation of metals as well, mainly caused by humidity.,
In my case, the layout K-tracks, most of them are over 40 years old, humidity and acidity played also a roll in the past and this what we're trying to rectify by adding more insulation to the garage or train room. looking at Roco sliders and compare them with Märklin sliders, I prefer Märklin sliders, another factor is how much voltage goes through your track system, the higher the voltage the higher the arcing possibiltiy, between sliders and pukos, since I've installed ball bearings to my motors I don't oil or grease the gears or motor anymore and this reduces the grime and dirt to hang onto tracks.
So yes there can be problems with tracks but the cause can be a variety of reasons or a combination of factors., if you experience these problems and can't solve them you may be better off not having a layout and just display your locos and rollingstock in a display cabinet and after 10 years of displaying your trains in a dispaly cabinet, let us know the problems you've experienced with display cabinets or you may even kept them in boxes and the items gone all rusty.,
John |
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2 users liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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I have seen Märklinist add extra pick up shoes on their locomotives for extra contact on the stud contacts.
The proof can sees in the Youtube. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: Goofy I have seen Märklinist add extra pick up shoes on their locomotives for extra contact on the stud contacts.
The proof can sees in the Youtube. you don't need extra pick up shoes on your locos if you follow my posts, whoever installed extra pick up shoes doesn't know the mechanics of a loco or the condition of tracks., some people think they've found a solution by adding an extra pick up shoe but havent' solved the problem why locos stop on tracks., for instance one of my steam loco BR 50 (3084) has 10 rubber tyres, I also have BR 191 with 2 motors and 12 rubber tyres, all I do add a carriage behind the loco with metal couplings and the contact problems is solved., and I have had no problems with locos stopping anywhere., if you apply common sense to any problem you'll find your problems will be minimal but if you exaggerate your problem it could lead to statements out of proportion. What anybody likes to do with their loco's contact problem is their call but it doesn't necessary mean its necessary and can be corrected by other means. I also find it odd after 70 years of having Märklin locos, suddenly someone comes up with a solution to their problem which I've never experienced in all these years, yes I had contact problems but there was a simple reason behind it and yes I've soldered an extra wire to the front bogie of a diesel or electric loco, and yes I've cleaned the wheels on a tender, or a 3081 (BR 80) loco's driving wheels, and yes I've dismantled a pick up shoe and cleaned the copper spring loaded arms on both sides, and yes I've found a solution to stop motors making an excessive noise by adding ball bearings, and yes I've solved the oil problem with motors and motor brushes (they are now free of oil), and yes my motor gears are dry without any oil and I've had no problems so far, and yes there was a problem with the motorshields mounting of the brushholder (3 & 5 pole motors) and yes I've corrected it my self and yes people complained about their loco not running smoothly, not running to their full capacity, making excessive noise, and yes I know people over oil their motors., and having a layout build back in the 1980's I've come across problems but in 2021 my layout is still fully functional and I can't say it has been any different from the day in the 1980's., and yes their is this myth about not running elelctric locos via the overhead system and it has effected a lot of train enthusiasts repeating the same myth without actually ever tried it themselves., I've been running elelctric digital locos since 1984 and never had any problems with it., and there are other abnormalities people have never mentioned, all Märklin Co-Co locos only had contact from 2 axles and not 3. (R 103, BR 151, BR 194, the middle axle was slightly raised, why its anybodies guess. It doesn't proof anything, it was raining today and I've put a hat on but water got through the hat so I put an extra hat on and this solved the problem and its proofed it worked., I've got 2 weeding rings on my finger just in case I lose one. I've got glasses with rear vision mirrors just in case someone is following me., this doesn't proof anything its ridiculous John |
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2 users liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,225 Location: Montreal, QC
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I have seen a few instances on C Track where the locomotives stall when using MS2. The locomotive starts moving again if nudged. My experimentation seems to suggest that there may be an issue connected to the use of axle contacts as opposed to the return being conducted by the housing. Many of the newer models will start moving when slight lateral pressure is applied to the locomotive, which yields stronger contact with the axle contact. I have observed this behaviour with a number of Roco models. I also observed similar behaviour with my 37473, 39461 and a few other models. My floor layout has been boxed up since I moved to my new place in August and I have not had the chance to do further testing. I don't know if the change from AC to DC power has made the models more vulnerable to power dropouts. To complete the testing, I would have had to replace the 60652 with my 6021 or with my 6647 transformer (analog). It was very frustrating with Roco's Re 4/4II that every time there was a power dropout, the Swiss taillight would revert to the default single red and F15 had to be reactivated. One of the first things that I did was to check the rails for dirt. There was a little residue, but the fact that older locomotives were less affected pulled me in the direction of the ground contacts instead. With the older models, the ground contact was often by the axle to frame. With the new models using friction contacts, either against the inside of the flange or against the top of the tread. A few models have a friction contact to the axle (axle wiper). The older design where the entire bogie was connected to the axle and the power return was transmitted via the housing provided much better contact. Here is a photo of the motor block of a Hag New Generation locomotive (165). You can clearly see the ground contacts which make contact with a small point on the rear of the flange. In this case, there are four contacts, so even if one is lost, the model will still have contact. Some models that have contacts only one on side per bogie are more vulnerable. https://www.moba-forum.c...1653-spez-schleifer-jpg/Make sure that the return contacts are not gummed up with lint or grease. It will make for better running. Regards Mike C
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: mike c I have seen a few instances on C Track... A friend's C-Track layout suffered from the studs in some sections dropping down. It was fixed by pulling up on the pukos with some pliers. I do feel as though it is time for Goofy to abandon Märklin and 3-rail (again) |
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4 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,225 Location: Montreal, QC
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Originally Posted by: river6109 There are other abnormalities people have never mentioned, all Märklin Co-Co locos only had contact from 2 axles and not 3. (R 103, BR 151, BR 194, the middle axle was slightly raised, why its anybodies guess. There is an easy explanation for why Co-Co locos (why are they not just called Cocomotives?) have the middle wheelset without flanges. If the middle axle of Maerklin Co-Co locomotives and other long models (steamers, Crocodile, etc) was with full flange, the locomotive would not be able to handle the narrow radii used. By removing the flange, the model can handle the radii used without the middle axle causing the locomotive to derail. If you look at the design of the Bo-Bo-Bo type locomotives (Re 6/6, etc), you can see how the middle bogie is designed to shift laterally. If it was fixed to a static pivot, that locomotive too would be incapable of handling the radius required. On newer models with wheel contacts, they omit the middle axle. On the older ones where the ground contact was via the housing/bogie, it did not matter. I hope that this answers that problem. Regards Mike C
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: mike c Originally Posted by: river6109 There are other abnormalities people have never mentioned, all Märklin Co-Co locos only had contact from 2 axles and not 3. (R 103, BR 151, BR 194, the middle axle was slightly raised, why its anybodies guess. There is an easy explanation for why Co-Co locos (why are they not just called Cocomotives?) have the middle wheelset without flanges. If the middle axle of Maerklin Co-Co locomotives and other long models (steamers, Crocodile, etc) was with full flange, the locomotive would not be able to handle the narrow radii used. By removing the flange, the model can handle the radii used without the middle axle causing the locomotive to derail. If you look at the design of the Bo-Bo-Bo type locomotives (Re 6/6, etc), you can see how the middle bogie is designed to shift laterally. If it was fixed to a static pivot, that locomotive too would be incapable of handling the radius required. On newer models with wheel contacts, they omit the middle axle. On the older ones where the ground contact was via the housing/bogie, it did not matter. I hope that this answers that problem. Regards Mike C Mike, all theses models had flanges I didn't include all the Nohab locos as well, the middle axle is slightly above so it actually dosn't touch the track, they all have flanges John |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Mike wrote:. Here is a photo of the motor block of a Hag New Generation locomotive (165). You can clearly see the ground contacts which make contact with a small point on the rear of the flange. In this case, there are four contacts, so even if one is lost, the model will still have contact. Some models that have contacts only one on side per bogie are more vulnerable. https://www.moba-forum.c...1653-spez-schleifer-jpg/ these are the same with Roco models sometimes they have the contact on top of flange and any dirt or grime gets caught on it will result in contact failure. John |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: mike c If the middle axle of Maerklin Co-Co locomotives and other long models (steamers, Crocodile, etc) was with full flange, the locomotive would not be able to handle the narrow radii used. As John pointed out, the middle wheels have full-size flanges. They have enough play to even get through the industrial radii. Those locos have traction tyres on the outer axles. The wheels in the middle do not have traction tyres and do not touch the rails to get maximum tractive effort. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
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I don´t understand why you are writing about wheels and the rail, when topic is about pick up shoe and the stud contact.
river6109 are so wrong!
I have seen your video in the Youtube and you have problem with the locomotives and contact on the tracks.
You need to clean the stud contacts too.
The more dirt on the stud contacts, the lesser pick up shoe contact on the stud contact.
DaleSchultz can speak byself about abandon. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: Goofy I don´t understand why you are writing about wheels and the rail, when topic is about pick up shoe and the stud contact.
river6109 are so wrong!
I have seen your video in the Youtube and you have problem with the locomotives and contact on the tracks.
You need to clean the stud contacts too.
The more dirt on the stud contacts, the lesser pick up shoe contact on the stud contact.
DaleSchultz can speak byself about abandon. Goofy, who ever added another pick up shoe to a loco is dreaming and you came along and extended this dream, true or false ? Goofy wrote: The more dirt on the stud contacts, the lesser pick up shoe contact on the stud contact. exchange it for a new one or clean it., true or false ? John |
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,452 Location: Scotland
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Here was me thinking this thread had finished. Just clean tracks and sliders on a regular basis and the trains keep running. They do on my layout anyway.
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Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
1 user liked this useful post by David Dewar
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,467 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: David Dewar Here was me thinking this thread had finished. Just clean tracks and sliders on a regular basis and the trains keep running. They do on my layout anyway.
I thought it had died as well, but again, Goofy comes along with "i have seen ..." without providing a link to what he was watching, so we can only suppose there is insubstantiated information here. True or False? The answer is Yes.
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: Goofy I don´t understand why you are writing about wheels and the rail, when topic is about pick up shoe and the stud contact. I tried to explain it to you in post #14. Electricity flows in a circuit, so the worst part of the circuit will define the worst flow. That worst part is not a pickup shoe, it is wheels. It is thus logical that a 2-rail loco, which only has wheel on rail contact, will have much worse contact in general. 2 rail: two poor contact systems (left rail and right rail) 3 rail: two poor contact systems for one side (rails), plus a better contact (center studs) Two poor contact systems for one side is 2x better than two poor contact systems for two sides. ('poor' is used here to indicate 'not as good as the other') |
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2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Originally Posted by: Goofy I don´t understand why you are writing about wheels and the rail, when topic is about pick up shoe and the stud contact. I tried to explain it to you in post #14. Electricity flows in a circuit, so the worst part of the circuit will define the worst flow. That worst part is not a pickup shoe, it is wheels. It is thus logical that a 2-rail loco, which only has wheel on rail contact, will have much worse contact in general. 2 rail: two poor contact systems (left rail and right rail) 3 rail: two poor contact systems for one side (rails), plus a better contact (center studs) Two poor contact systems for one side is 2x better than two poor contact systems for two sides. ('poor' is used here to indicate 'not as good as the other') 99% failure in my case are the K-tracks pukos from 1980, since than we are trying to improve the moisture in the garage and we are spending 1000's of dollars to insulate the garage and we are getting there slowly, Goofy's remarks regarding locos stopping on my layout is due to the moisture in the garage., secondly some section of track are laid straight onto the chip board whereas others are on a bed of cork, earlier k-tracks had copper end contacts and they are now nickel, when we ballasted the tracks fluid got into the end connectors and over time they oxidized and one could expect this after 40 years., Goofy's comment about my locos stopping has however nothing to do with his topic (pick up shoe). true or false ? John |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: David Dewar Here was me thinking this thread had finished. This is standard Goofy practice  It happens in almost every thread where he has been proved wrong; he disappears, only to come back a few months later and start all over again.................... True or false?  Per. |
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2 users liked this useful post by Purellum
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