The Reichsadler originated with the Holy Roman Empire according to Wikipedia, which has this to say:

"The German Imperial Eagle (Reichsadler) originates from a proto-heraldic emblem believed to have been used by Charlemagne, the first Frankish ruler crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope in 800, and derived ultimately from the Aquila or eagle standard, of the Roman army."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

What I referred to are the very specific versions used by the NSDAP where the eagle is sitting upon a circle with a swastika in the middle. BTW I have a picture of a great grandfather wearing a swastika pin from long before it had this association, when it was kind of like a four leaf clover. But the Reichsadler in that format had everything to do with the NSDAP, and even though Märklin did not reproduce the swastika we all know that it is there.

Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.

Hello and thank you for all the opinions and outlooks on an interesting part of history.
The debate has been done in a very good spirit.

I took this photo in 2018 when I visited the DB Museum in Koblenz.


It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
This is one of the 1935-39 builds of the express coaches known in German as the Schürzenwagen (apron or skirted cars).
It is what I believe may have been the original livery of green with ivory striping.
The casting of the eagle is a work of art. I don't know if it was brass, nickel or aluminium or some metallic alloy or compound.
Anyway the casting is as originally placed on the side of the car when built.
The letters DR signify Deutschen Reichsbahn (DRB) which was a 1938 corporate transformation of the 1920 DRG (Deutsche Reischsbahn Gesellschaft).
The Swatika symbol (Tom .. > Hakenkreuz) which is still part of the casting has been covered and hidden by a simple circular disc (approx diam. 70mm) and held by a single srew or bolt through the middle.

The Schürzenwagens were themselves a state of the art development in rolling stock and certainly deserve their place in railroad annals.
Märklin have made many models of this type of car since about 1995, one example being set #43256 for the epoch around 1938.

regards
Kimball

In reply to Kimball, the Hermann Goering private train wagen is in the Koblenz museum. Very interesting. Hitler's personal train was destroyed as the war ended.
Set #43229 consists of recycled cars of German higher ups from WWII, I believe.

I don't see clearly what's in the circle.

Film makers can use the real Hakenkreuz, toy makers cannot use it. I think museums can use it, but may decide not to use it.

A different question is whether you want to buy the available models of era II and which scenes you model on the layout.

Very interesting topic and I thought I would add my two cents worth...

It is interesting to note that not all of the Reichsbahn’s locomotives and rolling stock carried the Eagle and Hakenkreuz, and the ones which did varied between a large cast version and a simple painted stencil. I believe this would have been based on the need to use materials for other war related causes. Many locomotives carried either a cast metal plate or a stencil with Deutsche Reichsbahn, while many passenger cars and almost all freight cars simply had a DR painted on them.

It is also important to note that there was an uncomfortable alliance many times between the generals and A.H. and other high ranking Nazi’s, at least in the early stages. Hence the SS was separate from the Army (Wehrmacht) in the beginning, as they were being given/fed two different ideologies. So perhaps these particular trains held some significance to either the high ranking officials, in the way of special achievements in technology, speed or perhaps as propaganda in particular areas of Germany and/or occupied areas of Europe. So as to state very loudly that the 3rd Reich is here to stay. While the general needs of transport was issued locomotives and cars without this extra crap bolted on.

So if anyone has a desire to model this period in history, an accurate representation could still be done without the need to display the Hakenkreuz. A very interesting book on the subject of the DR at war is by Andreas Knipping and Reinhard Schultz titled Die Deutsche Reichsbahn 1939-1946, Zwischen Ostfront und Atlantikwall.

I am an amateur historian on the Second World War... my grandfather on my mum’s side fought in the German Army and my father was an Irishman, who joined the US Army Air Force to fight the Nazi’s... so I am very interested in the actual history, but I model all my railways are of the Bundesbahn of the 1970s (Ep IV).

To finish up, history is history. What has happened in the past can’t be changed and to recreate this in a miniature form is not bad, so long as it is represented accurately, with sensitivity and without embellishment. However trying to change the narrative of the past is morally dangerous and extremely slippery slope that can’t end well.

The eagle, in general, has been one of the key symbols of Germany since its inception and before, when it was a confederation, or before when it was a major part of the "Holy Roman Empire".
In every instance of the general concept of a Germanic state, the eagle has varied.

However, the specific Roman stylized version I think is tied to the 3rd German Reich era from 1933-45, as there was a lot of Roman style symbolism used in the Nazi era.

If you go to Museums in Germany you may find models of trains, road vehicles and airplanes with the swastika removed but with the spreadeagle left intact. That seems to be the law and a reasonable compromise.

If it is legal for German museums, it may not be legal for German MRR manufacturers and it can still collide with other national laws when trying to sell outside of Germany.

I agree.

I love some of the locs from the 30s, which were the peak of steam technology and also the dawn of fast electric.

My parents were young adults in The Netherlands in WWII, and experienced terrible things that they carried with them for the rest of their lives. They bore no ill-will towards Germany or its people, but reminders of the war would upset them, and they would never watch a war-based movie or TV series, no matter whether it was drama or comedy. Images of the SS runes or the swastika would never be allowed.

Having grown up with my parents' PTSD I don't personally care to model anything in the war, but the period before I find fascinating.

One of my favourite loco classes is the 05 - impractical, but fast and beautiful (and probably the fastest of all time, despite what the British may say :-) I took this photo of 05001 at the Transport Museum in Nürnberg:



of course I have the Märklin model too, and my favourite car set to go with it is Märklin 43256.

https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/43256/

The cars have the eagles but not the swastikas, which I think is the right compromise. Each to his or her own, but I do enjoy the engineering of this period.

For those that do want to model WW2, I just received my copy of the 39047 store lok 2019, a br42 in camouflage painting. I was hesitant to buy because I already have a 39044, the non camouflage version with a different roadnumber. But since I am very happy with the BR42 model I decided to go for it and I do not regret it. The camouflage really adds something, and it is nicer looking than the camouflaged BR53 (37024) that I also have.

It is currently available for a reasonable price (yes I know that is relative) at joes modellbahnlaedle, so go for it I would say.

Bert