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Offline dickinsonj  
#51 Posted : 11 April 2021 13:25:33(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
The Reichsadler originated with the Holy Roman Empire according to Wikipedia, which has this to say:

"The German Imperial Eagle (Reichsadler) originates from a proto-heraldic emblem believed to have been used by Charlemagne, the first Frankish ruler crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope in 800, and derived ultimately from the Aquila or eagle standard, of the Roman army."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

What I referred to are the very specific versions used by the NSDAP where the eagle is sitting upon a circle with a swastika in the middle. BTW I have a picture of a great grandfather wearing a swastika pin from long before it had this association, when it was kind of like a four leaf clover. But the Reichsadler in that format had everything to do with the NSDAP, and even though Märklin did not reproduce the swastika we all know that it is there.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#52 Posted : 11 April 2021 18:26:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
I believe E19 to be era II
Class E 19.1 with red skirts and red sandboxes is the museum edition, not era II. If the catalogue shows era II then the manufacturer didn't research properly.

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Seems like an odd question to me, the vehicles are just vehicles they’re not evil. You can appreciate the engineering without endorsing the regimes they were involved in.
Vehicles are not evil, but the Hakenkreuz is a sign of the evil that was to come.
Steamers in camouflage are somewhat evil because the state that started the war added the camouflage painting. Trains with FLAK cars are a symbol of the war time, so are freight cars loaded with WW II tanks, aircrafts, or submarines.
Coaches from era IV or later with tanks do not have the war-time touch, but still I don't want to have them on my layout.

Edited by user 12 April 2021 10:32:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#53 Posted : 12 April 2021 06:19:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,455
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Vehicles are not evil, but the swastika is a sign of the evil that was to come.




Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
CS3...H0...
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Offline H0  
#54 Posted : 12 April 2021 10:32:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
The swastika is a peaceful sign. The Hakenkreuz is a bad sign and it is in most cases illegal to show it in Germany.

On locos and airplanes of that time it is the Hakenkreuz, not the harmless swastika.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#55 Posted : 12 April 2021 11:16:33(UTC)
kimballthurlow

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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,115
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello and thank you for all the opinions and outlooks on an interesting part of history.
The debate has been done in a very good spirit.

I took this photo in 2018 when I visited the DB Museum in Koblenz.
UserPostedImage

It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
This is one of the 1935-39 builds of the express coaches known in German as the Schürzenwagen (apron or skirted cars).
It is what I believe may have been the original livery of green with ivory striping.
The casting of the eagle is a work of art. I don't know if it was brass, nickel or aluminium or some metallic alloy or compound.
Anyway the casting is as originally placed on the side of the car when built.
The letters DR signify Deutschen Reichsbahn (DRB) which was a 1938 corporate transformation of the 1920 DRG (Deutsche Reischsbahn Gesellschaft).
The Swatika symbol (Tom .. > Hakenkreuz) which is still part of the casting has been covered and hidden by a simple circular disc (approx diam. 70mm) and held by a single srew or bolt through the middle.

The Schürzenwagens were themselves a state of the art development in rolling stock and certainly deserve their place in railroad annals.
Märklin have made many models of this type of car since about 1995, one example being set #43256 for the epoch around 1938.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#56 Posted : 12 April 2021 12:46:20(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
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Location: Michigan, Troy
Perhaps it's a touchy slope. Slippery, unless care taken for solid footing. The reischbahn was an entity of the third Reich, under Hans Schtickelmeyer. I don't even like saying Hitler. They tricked many Germans with a former peaceful sign into following evil.
Here in America we are still at odds over our civil war history, the Confederate flag being flown, the Kkk, and racial discord. Yet we have rights to display such things. In Gettysburg National battle ground memorial Park, there are both items from the north and south.
As much as I disliked the maga slogan (Make America Great Again) it is now history. If we erase these items from books, private and or public display 100%, how can future generations learn from history so they are wise not to repeat them?
It is crucial to know how to read between lines and signs in order to rationalize ethical and moral behavior. There are not always good and bad on both sides. If you fail to condemn a violent act as a leader, you are a failure. That fueled more racial unrest. The culmination were law enforcement officers thinking they could get away more abuse and brutality, and ultra radicals organizing kidnapping, murder, and a siege on our Capitol.
Hitler had artistic talent, and even liked trains. He lost his way and embraced hatred. Bad thoughts create bad actions. Good thoughts good actions. Thinking you are better than others is a bad thought. Never forget, Never again!
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Offline mrmarklin  
#57 Posted : 13 April 2021 01:11:13(UTC)
mrmarklin

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In reply to Kimball, the Hermann Goering private train wagen is in the Koblenz museum. Very interesting. Hitler's personal train was destroyed as the war ended.
Set #43229 consists of recycled cars of German higher ups from WWII, I believe.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline Goofy  
#58 Posted : 13 April 2021 06:16:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,455
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
The swastika is a peaceful sign. The Hakenkreuz is a bad sign and it is in most cases illegal to show it in Germany.

On locos and airplanes of that time it is the Hakenkreuz, not the harmless swastika.



Swastika and hakenkreuz are same symbol. Some country did used hakenkreuz for other acting too and not for nazism. Those who use modeltrains does not need to be shame if there are symbols. Even royal symbols on the old locomotives.
CS3...H0...
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Offline H0  
#59 Posted : 13 April 2021 08:33:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
I don't see clearly what's in the circle.

Film makers can use the real Hakenkreuz, toy makers cannot use it. I think museums can use it, but may decide not to use it.

A different question is whether you want to buy the available models of era II and which scenes you model on the layout.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#60 Posted : 13 April 2021 09:04:55(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,145
Location: Michigan, Troy
What does the Asian symbol mean that is 4 arms in a circle? I'll Google it later. I'm awake again at 3 a.m.
Also, the Marklin Danish m y series of older issues has a round symbol stamped into the bottom of the bogie with arrows and a zig zag. I was told it was an award symbol.
Offline Doc.Calladine  
#61 Posted : 13 April 2021 15:03:56(UTC)
Doc.Calladine

Australia   
Joined: 12/04/2021(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Trinity Beach, Queensland
Very interesting topic and I thought I would add my two cents worth...

It is interesting to note that not all of the Reichsbahn’s locomotives and rolling stock carried the Eagle and Hakenkreuz, and the ones which did varied between a large cast version and a simple painted stencil. I believe this would have been based on the need to use materials for other war related causes. Many locomotives carried either a cast metal plate or a stencil with Deutsche Reichsbahn, while many passenger cars and almost all freight cars simply had a DR painted on them.

It is also important to note that there was an uncomfortable alliance many times between the generals and A.H. and other high ranking Nazi’s, at least in the early stages. Hence the SS was separate from the Army (Wehrmacht) in the beginning, as they were being given/fed two different ideologies. So perhaps these particular trains held some significance to either the high ranking officials, in the way of special achievements in technology, speed or perhaps as propaganda in particular areas of Germany and/or occupied areas of Europe. So as to state very loudly that the 3rd Reich is here to stay. While the general needs of transport was issued locomotives and cars without this extra crap bolted on.

So if anyone has a desire to model this period in history, an accurate representation could still be done without the need to display the Hakenkreuz. A very interesting book on the subject of the DR at war is by Andreas Knipping and Reinhard Schultz titled Die Deutsche Reichsbahn 1939-1946, Zwischen Ostfront und Atlantikwall.

I am an amateur historian on the Second World War... my grandfather on my mum’s side fought in the German Army and my father was an Irishman, who joined the US Army Air Force to fight the Nazi’s... so I am very interested in the actual history, but I model all my railways are of the Bundesbahn of the 1970s (Ep IV).

To finish up, history is history. What has happened in the past can’t be changed and to recreate this in a miniature form is not bad, so long as it is represented accurately, with sensitivity and without embellishment. However trying to change the narrative of the past is morally dangerous and extremely slippery slope that can’t end well.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#62 Posted : 17 April 2021 00:50:45(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,115
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
I don't see clearly what's in the circle.

Film makers can use the real Hakenkreuz, toy makers cannot use it. I think museums can use it, but may decide not to use it.

A different question is whether you want to buy the available models of era II and which scenes you model on the layout.


Hi Tom,

The swastika (Hakenkreuz) is covered by a plate of a slightly smaller diameter than the surround circle.
I particularly noted that because it covers the Hakenkreuz.
Any person who knows history knows what is beneath the plate.

Unfortunately I did not measure the diameter of the circle.
Silly me.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Minok  
#63 Posted : 21 April 2021 23:42:06(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,222
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The eagle has nothing to do with NSDAP. It has always been a symbol of the Kings of Prussia.

Remember the first Lok in Germany was named der Adler. The eagle.


The eagle, in general, has been one of the key symbols of Germany since its inception and before, when it was a confederation, or before when it was a major part of the "Holy Roman Empire".
In every instance of the general concept of a Germanic state, the eagle has varied.

However, the specific Roman stylized version I think is tied to the 3rd German Reich era from 1933-45, as there was a lot of Roman style symbolism used in the Nazi era.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#64 Posted : 22 April 2021 13:08:47(UTC)
skeeterbuck

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Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
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Location: Maryland, Baltimore
The German Diesel-Pneumatic Locomotive V3201 was the loco that used a U-Boat engine. Wink

There's no way a diesel engine designed for U-boat use could ever produce anywhere close to enough RPM to spin a propeller fast enough to power a rail car. I think the RPM of the U-boat diesel was about 500 RPM.

http://www.douglas-self....LOCO/diesair/diesair.htm
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Offline macxlii  
#65 Posted : 12 May 2021 14:41:43(UTC)
macxlii

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Location: Fairfax Station, Virginia
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
Is the modeling of era 2 in the mid to late 1930s still considered taboo? Marklin makes some nice DRG models but......? No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period Mike

If you go to Museums in Germany you may find models of trains, road vehicles and airplanes with the swastika removed but with the spreadeagle left intact. That seems to be the law and a reasonable compromise.

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Offline jvuye  
#66 Posted : 13 May 2021 21:10:12(UTC)
jvuye

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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post

Yes, the Rail Zeppelin was developed in German in the 1930's. While it looked like aluminum, it was actually made of plywood and then painted to look like that. It never left the test track except for one test.
[...]
There is a rumor that this proto-type was actually being use for.....a test bed for U-Boat diesel engines? How diabolical!! By the Treaty of Versailles restrictions, the Germans were prohibited from developing U-Boat technology. However, if you stick the engine in a train.....put a propeller on the back of it....no one will suspect...



I don’t even know where to start:

Developed in the 1930s (while constructed in 1929 AFAIK), plywood, a U-boat Diesel engine powering a high revolution propeller, a “test bed” that ran only once on tracks?

What is the source for this please?


This is wrong info!
The Zeppelin was indeed put on the rail to primarily test the aircraft engine and propeller combinations, while Germany was still limited in what it could dounder the Versailles treaty.
The test for the big diesel was the "compressed air transmission " modiifed BR 78 prototype
This would allow both testing the reliability and behaviour of the diesel engine and the compressor equipment used later in U-boote

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline H0  
#67 Posted : 14 May 2021 17:22:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,332
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: macxlii Go to Quoted Post
If you go to Museums in Germany you may find models of trains, road vehicles and airplanes with the swastika removed but with the spreadeagle left intact. That seems to be the law and a reasonable compromise.
If it is legal for German museums, it may not be legal for German MRR manufacturers and it can still collide with other national laws when trying to sell outside of Germany.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#68 Posted : 04 June 2021 11:52:51(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Location: Michigan, Troy
Marklin ho DSB my 1000 series made in western Germany have a wolfsangel stamped on the powered bogie.
Offline hvc  
#69 Posted : 04 June 2021 14:49:58(UTC)
hvc

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 346
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
Originally Posted by: macxlii Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
Is the modeling of era 2 in the mid to late 1930s still considered taboo? Marklin makes some nice DRG models but......? No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period Mike

If you go to Museums in Germany you may find models of trains, road vehicles and airplanes with the swastika removed but with the spreadeagle left intact. That seems to be the law and a reasonable compromise.



I agree.

I love some of the locs from the 30s, which were the peak of steam technology and also the dawn of fast electric.

My parents were young adults in The Netherlands in WWII, and experienced terrible things that they carried with them for the rest of their lives. They bore no ill-will towards Germany or its people, but reminders of the war would upset them, and they would never watch a war-based movie or TV series, no matter whether it was drama or comedy. Images of the SS runes or the swastika would never be allowed.

Having grown up with my parents' PTSD I don't personally care to model anything in the war, but the period before I find fascinating.

One of my favourite loco classes is the 05 - impractical, but fast and beautiful (and probably the fastest of all time, despite what the British may say :-) I took this photo of 05001 at the Transport Museum in Nürnberg:

IMG_6966.jpg

of course I have the Märklin model too, and my favourite car set to go with it is Märklin 43256.

https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/43256/

The cars have the eagles but not the swastikas, which I think is the right compromise. Each to his or her own, but I do enjoy the engineering of this period.
- Herman
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Offline dickinsonj  
#70 Posted : 05 June 2021 03:01:02(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: hvc Go to Quoted Post
The cars have the eagles but not the swastikas, which I think is the right compromise. Each to his or her own, but I do enjoy the engineering of this period.

I agree. My D-12 Insider coach set is very beautiful, as is my E19 Museum loco, both of which have the eagle but only round disks where the swastikas would have been. The reality is there even if it is not shoved in your face. For me that is the correct compromise on this understandably controversial topic.

But I do love machines and these fine trains did not cause the horrors of that time. I think that they deserve to be respected and admired outside of the context of their troubled time. May we never see the like again.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline DasBert33  
#71 Posted : 11 June 2021 14:31:11(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,224
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
For those that do want to model WW2, I just received my copy of the 39047 store lok 2019, a br42 in camouflage painting. I was hesitant to buy because I already have a 39044, the non camouflage version with a different roadnumber. But since I am very happy with the BR42 model I decided to go for it and I do not regret it. The camouflage really adds something, and it is nicer looking than the camouflaged BR53 (37024) that I also have.

It is currently available for a reasonable price (yes I know that is relative) at joes modellbahnlaedle, so go for it I would say.

Bert
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